[FR] Slept with a girl I first met eight years ago

About eight years ago I met a young-but-legal girl at a dance class. She went to school out of state. Over the course of the class I ramped up the flirting with her and her friends, and I while I never outright slept with her (not for lack of trying) we did some other things and she eventually went home. Not an interesting story, but last weekend she came to town for work. She’d broken up with her long-term boyfriend of like six or seven years and I invited her to stay with me. She’s nerdier than most girls, which I like because it’s possible to have a real conversation with her.

She came over, I took her out to drink at two favorite bars (if you bring a lot of girls to the same bar or couple bars over and over again interesting things will happen to you…) and then back to my place for sex. No LMR and extremely high levels of connection. In some sense there wasn’t a lot of “game.” She was horny and available and stayed with me for sex. Next time she’s in town I’m going to try bringing her to a sex club or party with me, although she’s apprehensive about that and I’m not sure it’s going to happen. She also told me this time something that I figured: when I first started seeing her she hadn’t had sex before and found me scary, intimidating, and attractive at the same time. In retrospect I think I was acting too aloof around her and didn’t offer enough comfort, or she was just too inexperienced to get where we both wanted to go.

I’ve hung out with her once a year or so and even met her now-ex boyfriend. I’m sure many of you would think this behavior is “beta” or “friendzoned,” but I like her in general and the sexual tension was consistently high. I think that if she’d stayed longer when I first met her I would’ve been her first. At the time I was also pretty deep with someone else, and she knew about the other woman, so that may have dissuaded her. So it goes.

It’s of course true that you shouldn’t be “friends” with a woman who is in your orbit and who you want to fuck and who you stay “friends” with because you’re slavering to fuck her. But if you have good pipeline and are fucking other girls anyway and don’t have oneitis, you should play the long game, and as your game develops it becomes possible to have girls orbit you rather than you orbiting them. The difference is important and as you gain experience you’ll recognize the difference. As I get older more women from the past swing around for a fuck or another fuck. Sometimes age has made me say no but sometimes it’s still very good and low-effort lay.

It is possible to play the long game. More often women I don’t sleep with immediately go away, or I stop replying to their messages. But sometimes old leads come back and the pleasure of this one is intense. In the last decade her body and mind have developed enormously and she’s much better looking and fuller looking now than she was then. The sex was excellent and in that time she’s had one primary boyfriend and, in the last couple months, a FWB. I’m not used to teaching girls her age about fucking, but this one hasn’t had a wide enough range of partners to have really tested all the ways she likes fucking… for example, she responded incredibly well to a buttplug. Having a lot of toys around is as useful as having any other tool around like those special screwdrivers Apple requires to open their laptops.

There are many stories around about guys doing same-day lays or first date lays. Those are great and I’ve done them. But, contrary to what you may read online, there are still many girls who won’t sleep with a guy till she knows him pretty well. Problem is that you can’t tell who those are or those will be in advance.

Sometimes very demure-seeming girls turn out to be ragingly sexual and sometimes forward-seeming girls turn out to be attention whores who don’t have much sex. When I read guys who talk online about their endless SDLs I get skeptical. Some of the things I read and you read seem really unlikely to me, which may be the subject of a future discussions.

When I first met this girl, I’d known her about eight weeks before I even got her properly undressed. Usually I wouldn’t wait that long and most of the time women who won’t accelerate quickly are tooling you. But that isn’t always true. The sexual tension was always there between us, and that enabled last weekend. If you can maintain decent sexual tension over time good things may happen.

There are probably 100 women with whom I have some kind of distant and potentially sexual connection. Guys are overall better off seeking new women than returning to ones we’ve already tried for, but if you cultivate your pool you’ll eventually find a lot of easy lays that drop on top of you. Plus this girl is cool in general.

Consider this a companion to “Snapchat in Game.” If you have good masculine fundamentals and basic game, you can leverage that basic game into a lot of good solid lays later on. You can’t fake masculine fundamentals and if you have them, many other things become much easier / simpler. Many issues that are about “game” or girls “playing games” or about a guy being disrespected are actually issues of the guy not have good masculine fundamentals. Androgynous-seeming guys often get walked over or sexually ignored. Masculine guys rarely have those problems.

I’m also less driven by sex than I used to be, so going longer without doesn’t bother me like it did when I was younger. I wonder if at some point I’m going to take a break, maybe a long break, from the chase.

Zero sugar will change your body and life

Going to zero sugar is hard but if you do it, it will change your body and life. Why you should get to zero is covered in the essential Gary Taubes book The Case Against Sugar, and I recommend you read it. Knowing that you should get to zero is easy but implementing changes to get to zero is very hard. Society is against you and sugar is all around you.

To make the changes necessary to get to zero you have to swim upstream against the society you live in. Most people will hold you back. Your diet should focus on nuts, vegetables, and some natural oils, especially olive oil. Roasting vegetables is especially important and if you don’t know how to do it Google that shit right now. Breakfast should usually be eggs with some vegetables or some complex carbs like quinoa.

I first made these changes more than ten years ago and they were very hard at the time. With discipline and time they have become normal in my life and I have systems in place to make them easier. They are still hard, however, because donuts, cookies, cakes, and pop are always showing up in the office, at birthday parties, and at basically every event.

Saying no is hard. Being fit is still better.

Humans have not evolved to ingest the large amount of sugar that most modern humans do. Most people are too lazy and undisciplined to make these changes and it shows in every facet of their life.

I am not the Buddha and I will sometimes have a small ice cream on hot summer days or a good pastry, but those exceptions are rare. I’m also not paranoid enough to hunt down every gram of sugar that may hide in salad dressing. Sometimes I will also make social exceptions because sometimes the right thing to do is to take the beer. Under most alcohol-based circumstances, prefer something like vodka and soda or whiskey and soda or red wine. Not every circumstance will be amenable to this strategy but many are.

/u/Grimy_range’s post “The never ending shit tests I have experienced while losing weight” inspired this one. So did a lot of the conversations I’ve had with younger guys and gals at work. I’ve never been a fattie but I have gotten lots of curious looks, questions, and sometimes outright shit for declining the never-ending donuts, bagels, and other food that most people relentlessly shovel into their gaping maws. I’ve also gotten a lot of shit for my love of biking, mostly again from car-based fatties.

My kids also relentlessly whine about food at my place versus food at their mothers’. Fortunately they’re also now old enough that I can tell them to eat what I make or make it themselves. Don’t like what’s on the table? Change it.

All around me I hear people complain about their weight and health. The foundation of both starts with the hand and mouth. Neglect the foundation and nothing else matters. Struggling with dating? Struggling with injuries? Food is part of what you likely need to change.

There is so much around you you cannot control. You can control what you stick in your face. This post is not very long because it doesn’t need to be. You will achieve what you achieve or you won’t. You will reap the pleasures or sorrows of the way you lead your life.

Women don’t want monogamy or courtship so men don’t offer it

Dad Meets the Sexual Revolution: A politically incorrect Father’s Day guide to sex, masculinity and daughters” misses one key point: women don’t actually want monogamy and commitment from the vast majority of men. Women want exciting hot sex from bad boys with lots of options. Once a guy realizes that women don’t actually respect guys who want monogamy, he stops offering it. Women think most guys who offer monogamy without struggle are weak.

This father wonders. I know any number of accomplished women who are not prudes, who want to be more than someone’s Tinder swipe and who are looking for full and worthy partners. When these women relate the reality of modern courtship—how so many first dates end with the man making clear that not jumping into bed with him means no second date—let’s just say “empowering” is not the first word that comes to mind.

I know any number of “accomplished women” who say all that. Especially during the day or to their parents when they’re sober and far from sexual situations. But I also know most of those same women behave very differently late and night and on weekends and when they’re horny. What they tell dad is very different from how they act. Kahneman and Tversky’s research has long shown that, basically, people are full of shit (I condense, but the result stands).

Don’t listen to anything women or anyone else says. Just look at how women or anyone else behaves. Guys who look at how women behave will adjust their own behaviors accordingly. I used to think women wanted flowers and courtesy and courtly behavior. By the time I got through my freshman year of college I figured out that, while I could still get laid with those kinds of behaviors, they were holding me back. Women want guys other women want. So guys who have lots of options don’t have to offer monogamy, and guys without those options can offer to women who disdain it.

It is true that women want monogamy and commitment from the kinds of guys who don’t have to offer it.

The one important positive thing about online dating

I’ve read a spate of posts decrying online dating and many make legitimate points I won’t go over here; if you read The Red Pill or Seduction you’ve likely seen them. One game blogger I read, Goldmund, says he HATES online dating.

Love it or hate it, the reality of online dating includes flakes, liars, narwhals, lunatics, divas, and psychos. Granted and experienced.

But.

Online dating also lets women seek consequence-free sex. Their friends and family don’t have to know what they’re up to. If they’re found online, they have wide plausible deniability: “Oh, I was just checking it out.” “I was just on it because my friend made my profile.” “I’m looking for friends.” That latitude is important. Anything that offers women plausible deniability and anonymity will increase sex.

Women who are horny and don’t have other viable, immediate options will seek them online, though they will rarely say as much because they’ll get inundated with low-quality messages and men. If you are in the right place at the right time you may find those women seeking sex.

In my experience, 10+ years ago there were more of those women online, or they were a larger proportion of the whole. Today online dating is mainstream, so there are fewer just trolling for sex, even as women overall are sexually freer. But they are still out there. I still find them online. Women get horny and like sex too. Part of what you’re doing is seeking them out.

Obviously daygame pickup has some of these advantages as well, which is why guys should do it. Do it more than I do, especially if you’re young but out of school.

The “how to do online dating” thing has been covered extensively elsewhere. I will say this:

  • Most brown and Asian guys are out of luck online. Sorry. First impressions are everything and you are at a distinct disadvantage here.
  • Same for short guys. I’m pretty average height and wear raised boots to first and sometimes second or third dates. Is it a lie? Maybe, whatever, I don’t care. Like most guys online I say I’m six foot one. Ha. Sometimes I do get static about height but I don’t care very much and if we’re meeting in person I can move past it. If you’re five-eight or shorter you’re going to have unavoidable problems online.
  • City. Don’t live in a real city? Don’t bother. I’ve lived in many cities and visited more and can tell you that the sex ratio in the city is key. I wouldn’t even bother trying online dating in a tech-heavy city like Seattle. If I did it would be minimal.
  • Photos. The importance of photos is clear and when I’ve talked to women I’ve slept with from online dating, going back probably 15 years now, photos are the number one distinguishing thing about me. Don’t bother trying online dating unless you’re willing to learn photography. I’ve gone through online dating apps with many women over the last decade and the vast majority of guys have shit pictures. Uber hot guys can conceivably get away with shit pics but the rest of us can’t.

I’m not going into depth about learning photography because you can do that online with searches. I’ve experimented with a wide array of photos and found that the motorcycle ones, dog ones, and rope bondage ones work best. Note with the latter that I don’t post photos of nude women but I do show clothed or mostly clothed women I’ve tied up. I’ve also tried showing ones with rope or rope and a flogger, and those can be kind of okay but don’t perform as well as me using rope on a woman.

Those kinds of pics send a strong “this guy is different” and “ecstatic, peak sexual experience” message. In terms of private messages, by now I also have thousands of good pics and videos that can sometimes be judiciously used for social proof purposes. I don’t use those in-app, preferring usually to wait until we’re in person. I think these are easy to mis-use but for the right woman at the right time they can advance the experience. I also have a lot of (true) stories I can tell about sex and dating. Since I mostly look for sex this gets rid of many women seeking relationships-only. Many of those seeking relationships will enjoy booty calls and FWBs while they search. A hot player can warm her while she searches elsewhere, especially if you are explicitly non-monogamous and opposed to monogamy.

By the way, most women have bad pics online too and it’s not unusual to meet someone way better looking than her pics indicate. The reverse is also true. The rise of smartphones has actually made many people’s pics worse than they were in the DSLR era.

  • I’ve been ultra-low and near-zero sugar for a long time. Sugar is the devil. Get rid of it and you will see massive body improvements. I’m an indifferent lifter and athlete compared to some guys but a diet demon and it shows. For offline dating this is useful and for online it is critical. The first pieces of advice are always “lift” and “don’t eat crap” because there are many things a man cannot change at once. What he puts in his mouth and what he does with his time he usually can. Make the core of your diet vegetables and nuts and good things will happen. Not today, not even tomorrow, but over time.

Kate Moss says nothing tastes as good as skinny feels. If she can do it so can you. If you can’t, don’t complain about your shit dating outcomes.

  • In online dating looks issues are amplified and that’s why almost all of this focuses on looks. Women who want consequence-free sex are going to be more interested in looks, social proof, and skill in bed than the average woman. If you want to be the guy on whom they experiment you need to know that.
  • Most guys are shit. Women routinely say this but having seen a lot of what they put up with I think it’s true.
  • Most online dating systems are geared towards new users. I sign up, use it for two to three weeks, delete, and cycle to a new one or simply find women through other means. The longer you use any given system the worse that system is. Every time you rotate on, you should crop or otherwise change your pics, even subtly. These systems love novelty and hate repetition. Online dating must supplement offline dating.
  • I said this about paid sex:

escorts work best for guys who already have strong masculine fundamentals. Escorts are still women and women respond to some guys with strong masculine fundamentals. Escorts who sense weak losers will usually respond in kind

Same thing online. If you don’t have strong fundamentals nothing else will work. Experimental women look to explore sex online away from their friends still want masculine dudes. Taking away social consequences makes a lot of women want to have more and more varied sex.

tl;dnr online dating is hard for men but it also offers women a way to get sex without social consequences.

Responses so far

fire3473” said this line is important to him:

Once you realize that women are valorized by the culture for both marrying and for divorcing, any residual desire you may feel about marrying should dissipate.

Marrying in the modern world is insane. More on that will be forthcoming when I have time.

Krauser left this comment on the Elon Musk post. I’ve never been to Whiskey Mist or “Movida, China White, Funky Buddha etc which act as magnets for lifestyle whore women,” but from the description I know what they’re like and there are similar places where I live. Rather than go to them I’d rather hire an honest escort. Or go to a bar or a dance or almost anywhere else. The best women for me don’t come from there. If the role of hard cash is that prominent I’d rather pay it out.

Why don’t you respond to me? To critics?

Arguing with people on the Internet is a waste of time and doesn’t matter. The Red Pill is here for you to build a better life. If you don’t like what I write and don’t intelligently disagree then I don’t care.

Usually people are saying, “Why don’t you respond *to me*?”, and the answer there is, again. . . I don’t care. The purpose of my writing is to share the meager learning I’ve done about how to build a better life. And yes, for most guys getting laid is a major component of that learning.

There are also certain things I love, like paid sex and amateur sex tapes, that you won’t love. There are certain things you might love that I don’t, like getting peed on or monogamy. The world is diverse and I’m trying to make it better in my own tiny domain here.

Most of the time I don’t answer people on Reddit because, again, I don’t care that much and most of the replies are poorly thought out or demonstrate poor reading skills or both. People would be better served to spend less time on the Internet and more time reading books.

Snapchat in game: “Wish this was you”

Right after I wrote about why I don’t post more field reports I actually have something short but actionable to say. Like many of you I have a moderately long list of leads who I’ve either slept with, only to see them go cold, or tried to sleep with, and like many of you I sense that there is likely some gold in that pile if I can just access it.

So last weekend I invited over a FWB who I’ve been seeing semi-regularly for a couple months. I’ve shot relatively high-quality nudes of her and we’ve made sex videos, so she’s familiar with me and my ways. This time, I blindfolded her and bent her over the bed. While we were having sex, I took a Snapchat of her nude back and the back of her head. No face and nothing super explicit, but anyone looking will know.

Afterward, I sent the snap to eight women, none of whom I’ve slept with but all of whom have shown at least some interest, with the caption saying, “Wish this was you.”

Over the course of the next day, three women blocked or unfriended me. Fine. Two looked and said nothing. Three replied and one of those said, “OMG hahahahahaha” with some emoji. I replied with a shot of my face and said, “Intensity is everything. how long has it been since you last have sex?” She replied, “Not recently…….” Again, this does not take a subtle man to understand. I invited her out to a drink and she came back with me. I don’t remember how I got her number in the first place, although I think she was a friend-of-a-friend or something like that. During the original interaction I tried to get her out and never succeeded. She was flakey or something and I gave up.

For whatever reason this time it worked.

My guess is that she was unavailable or uninterested when I first met her and this time I happened to catch her when she was horny, and she also responded to some aspect of the social proof from seeing another woman on my bed.

I don’t think I will have sex with the other two who replied because they both disappeared. One out of eight for almost no effort is still a good outcome and I wasn’t sure this would work. I am going to try it, or variants on it, again. It is obviously very polarizing. Only use it on leads you are willing to burn. I personally like that aspect of it because I like the idea of forcing a stronger “yes” or “never” decision. For modern guys attention and the withdrawal of attention are the only real tools available. This may be another post in the future.

I still advocate minimizing time on Snapchat and related social media sites, but used judiciously they can be effective. A while ago I dated a girl who is considerably younger than me and she showed me how to use Snapchat. By now most women in their 30s have and will use it. To me this is a bad sign for their overall mental health but I view it as another possible tool.

Women seem to view Snapchat as a different “channel” and using it resets the interaction after a period of no contact. Women who I wouldn’t text or who won’t text me may still respond to Snapchat.

I’m also kind of lazy (or “efficient” as I like to call it), so I am forever looking for shortcuts. This one isn’t quite a shortcut but it is a way to move leads up or out swiftly.

For whatever reason I really like making sex videos. In the sex-positive and swinger communities, it is common and convenient to trade explicit sex videos that do not have a person’s face in them, so I think I got the idea from that. They are a form of foreplay and also I think a form of social proof. Over time I expect this kind of social proof to expand dramatically. Already in the course of my life I’ve seen the way reality TV and now smartphones have made many women go from leery of photos and videos to eager models. It seems like making your own porn has gone from a weird fetish to everyday occurrence.

The most worrisome thing about this whole experience is whether it should be “Wish this was you” or “Wish this were you.” The singular or plural question bothers me.