I wonder if “Talking to Women” describes men today, too:

I have been reading a book, Talking to Women, published in 1965 and consisting of interviews with artsy Irish chicks. Many of their comments could be pulled from modern Red Pill writing. Let me take a look at some,

Sheila Rowbotham, in Promise of a Dream (2000), recalls how “little cultural space existed at this time for expressing the sexual freedoms emerging among young women of my generation. We were beginning to want relationships with men on quite new terms, yet were barely conscious of these needs.”

Today men have realized that marriage is foolish and that game is better than promising fidelity. Most women scorn fidelity except from the highest-status men, who are quite rare. It is much better to help women express their sexual freedoms and desires than it is to help women have children and a family. The whole society is set up to discourage children and family… yet many guys seem not to understand this. Yet. Despite the evidence all around them. Game writers are forging ahead and discovering fresh territory.

I suggest that men now offer relationships to women on quite new terms and I am part of that effort. No commitment, no little financial offerings, take-it-or-leave-it sex. Yet it turns out that most women do not like these terms so much as they might have thought. Especially at age 30+.

If these girls have anything in common it is a belief in personal fulfilment – that a woman’s life should not solely be the struggle to make men happy but more than that a progress towards the development of one’s body and soul.

If a woman believes that it is not her job to make you happy, then you should think the same of her (this is the vital principle of reciprocity that underlies human affairs). Yet women as a whole may be surprised when they find out that men as a whole take the same attitude towards them. That is not a good world to live in but it seems to be the one we are heading towards.

NELL Do you think it’s possible to stay with one man all your life?
PAULINE I think it’s possible.

What man wouldn’t sign up for marriage, with a ringing endorsement like Pauline’s?

NELL What do you think of the meaning of that expression ‘having a good time’ – what does ‘have a good time’ mean to you?
KATHY Well, going to parties and that sort of thing, mixing with people. Different people. Mostly all your friends, but then when you go to parties, there always is somebody different there. I like parties or going swimming and that sort of thing, sport, really. I get a lot of fun out of that, going out for the day and going swimming you know, a crowd of you, and having a drink and that type of thing.
NELL You prefer that really to a quiet life? A place and being in each night.
KAHTY Really, yes.

Don’t marry a Kathy. She was married for six years and divorced. A Kathy is for fun and sport, nothing more. Those kinds of girls have existed since forever. Many guys don’t understand that the Red Pill is not new. It’s quite old.

I have written extensively about non-monogamy, and here it is in 1965:

NELL Is sexual fidelity a hypocrisy that just doesn’t work?
FRANCES I’ve thought about it so much. There seem very few practical reasons for sexual fidelity in marriage – now there’s no danger of putting a cuckoo in the nest. And more than that, it’s a cumulative thing when the old laws break down, of people wishing to be independent, seeking desperately for their new identity.

Keep in mind however that these are artistic types for the most part, so they may not represent the body politic of women as a whole. Also, birth control is not 100% effective, even today, especially when it requires a daily pill, so that DNA testing is still wise. But Frances has a point, about how contraceptive technology and the curing of STIs weakens the need for monogamy. This is exciting to women who like having many partners and terrifying to women who want to try and lock down a top guy. He probably won’t be locked down as other women will give it to him, if he is attractive and has game. What I am doing is simply a logical extension of these basic principles.

They love f**king:

NELL How important do you think sex is?
ANTONIA It’s vastly important to me. If I’m frustrated I’m so incapable of doing anything. I feel unloved if I’m frustrated. I love making love so much, it’s one of the nicest things there is. And I so attach vast importance to it.

It’s strange to me when I read guys claim sex isn’t that vital to women. I think they just haven’t had enough experience. Or women show the side that the woman wants the guy to see. Women segment guys even more than guys segment women.

Lots of chicks have no idea what they want:

NELL Does the idea of freedom mean anything to you?
ANTONIA No, it doesn’t at all. Not at the moment. Living with Ben doesn’t, particularly. I’ve got as much freedom, more freedom than I want with Ben. I wish – this sort of business of personal freedom – I’d like him to be more possessive about me. Ont he other hand if I lived with someone who was more possessive, I’d hate it.

Chicks are incoherent and random. When I was younger I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why an individual chick had done some thing or not done some thing. Why did this chick say no to me? Why did this other, hotter chick f**k me like an animal almost immediately? There are patterns that are important for players to discern, but there is so much randomness.

The male desire algorithm is simple, as it calls for guys to f**k as many acceptable hot chicks as possible. The female desire algorithm is much more complex. Chicks often don’t know that they don’t know themselves. This chick, Antonia, acknowledges her own paradoxical nature, and even that is pretty random.

Guys need to be ready for the opportunities:

PADDY I think that some women they almost have to every now and then express themselves with some other man. They may not have work they’re particularly interested in and they’ve got all sorts of frustrations boiling inside them which they can only express by giving pleasure to another man. If they’re not a hundred per cent fulfilled by their own husband, what else can they do? And I can’t see that this is a sin at all.

No one is a hundred per cent fulfilled by their spouse. Paddy’s point, that a woman has to “express” herself “by giving pleasure to another man” is a key idea for guys: you should be ready to be that other guy. You should also not get married, as one day your lovely little wifey is going to want to express herself with another man. Though she not likely to express that to you first.

Almost all of the chicks in this book say sex is VERY IMPORTANT to them and in their relationships. If you sense a chick is uninterested in sex, chances are she is uninterested in sex with YOU and you should go find a chick who is interested in sex with you. A girl who is truly interested in sex with you and who gives no positive indicators is likely never going to be interested in sex with you, and you should quit wasting your time and go find a chick who is interested in you.

I think guys should read more material written by women; although much of it is self-serving and positioning pablum, some of it can be revealing.

The conversation has advanced much less than I would think. I don’t think most guys have a really strong sense of what women really like, think, and feel. Most guys have a sense of what women want men to think, not what women actually think. Most conventional movies and TV are designed to reinforce the lie, because the truth is too disturbing to the average person.

 

Author: The Red Quest

How can we live and be in society?

8 thoughts on “I wonder if “Talking to Women” describes men today, too:”

  1. Great post. There is nothing new in human nature, but society has certainly taken off the restraints that were out in place from centuries of experience.

    Blackdragon did an interview with a woman who was a self described serial mongomist. It’s one of the most honest and red pill things I’ve ever seen:

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2015/05/25/confessions-of-a-serial-monogamist/

    I love women but it’s important to have a crystal clear understanding of what they are and what they are not. I suspect a lot of the traditional values that started breaking in the 60s were meant to balance the darker natures of men and women for the greater good. But pandora’a Box has been opened

    I believe as high value man with game we’re better off than we would be in a traditional society. We get to fuck an endless variety of attractive younger women with no consequence or commitment. And we get to do so for a very long time if we keep in shape

    I think older women and lower value men lose out with the restraints lifted. So it goes.

    all of the above emphasized the standard red pill advice:

    – women need to be lead (they don’t know what they want and follow their feelings)
    – don’t commit to monogamy, always have multiple options
    – don’t expect unconditional love

    Probably not what feminists intended but Frankly it’s an amazing time to be alive. I love women and our society allows me to enjoy them like I never could have before. But this can only be done with eyes wide open to true human nature

    Like

    1. >> I have never, in my life, met a single guy who I can have sex with who will not insist on monogamy and locking me down.

      This chick lacks imagination or has not been introduced to consensual non-monogamy.

      I’m also not 100% convinced she’s a woman. She’s pretty systematizing.

      Older women definitely struggle, if they don’t a) do some of the body things men have to do, like quit sugar and not default to the American lifestyle, and b) establish a strong family life and family bonds.

      In my real, personal life, I don’t meet very many players… most guys still seem to default to marriage or quasi-marriage.

      Like

  2. > The whole society is set up to discourage children and family…

    Actually, “anti society” (=Leftism) is discouraging children/fam. It’s cancer.

    Tucker Carlson has been on this topic, basically saying the main goal of gov should be to ensure average people can raise a family. Anything else is suicide. He is right. He is on fire right now.

    > I suggest that men now offer relationships to women on quite new terms and I am part of that effort.

    I like the advice you give men, and I live like you do. But this is triage for the short term wounds.

    You/I should live like this. But if everyone lives like this, the sense of security will wither, and the bonding we do engaging will be harder and harder to come by.. It’ll be more/more survival thinking.

    You’re not wrong. Not at all. But you are more fit to enjoy the decline than I am.

    Leaving women out of their own is a leading indiactor of collapse.

    This is not a sexy conversation.

    As a player, the best I can do is advocate Patriarchy. In small ways, and in large ones… Shape the women, or lose the kingdom.

    Like

    1. >>You/I should live like this. But if everyone lives like this, the sense of security will wither, and the bonding we do engaging will be harder and harder to come by.. It’ll be more/more survival thinking.

      Could be. I see most guys around me still willing to get married, though. I don’t think most guys have thought through what contemporary marriage means. Or how to think about alternate relationships. The current “security” many people think they have is a mirage.

      Like

  3. Trying to get back to sex now…

    > It’s strange to me when I read guys claim sex isn’t that vital to women. I think they just haven’t had enough experience. Or women show the side that the woman wants the guy to see. Women segment guys even more than guys segment women.

    It seems clear to me there are high-/low-key sex drive women.

    I think your lifestyle gives you a type of bias.

    I pick up shy, feminine types in the day… And it has occurred to me that I meet a lot more low-sexdrive girls. Not all of them are like that, but many are.

    There are K girls, but I don’t think they go to sex parties.

    And there are R girls, and I think they are likely attracted to more hyper sexual men.

    Like

  4. > Don’t marry a Kathy. She was married for six years and divorced. A Kathy is for fun and sport, nothing more. Those kinds of girls have existed since forever.

    Great insight.

    Tons of travel too… Don’t hire that person, and don’t marry them. It’s a type. Wanderlust.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. > Don’t marry a Kathy. She was married for six years and divorced. A Kathy is for fun and sport, nothing more. Those kinds of girls have existed since forever.

    Great insight.

    Tons of travel too… Don’t hire that person, and don’t marry them. It’s a type. Wanderlust.

    Like

  6. > got as much freedom, more freedom than I want with Ben. I wish – this sort of business of personal freedom – I’d like him to be more possessive about me. Ont he other hand if I lived with someone who was more possessive, I’d hate it.

    Here is some “hippy” sexual technology that can explain this one:

    Possessive? No. That is “caveman.” Women don’t want that.

    “To feel claimed.” That is what she is asking for.

    This ^ is from John Wineland/Deida teaching.

    What is the difference? Harder to articulate. It has to do with where it comes from. Perhaps “claiming a woman” is expansive and proactive, while being “possessive” is small and reactive.

    But consider it as a proactive technique. Can you show her your desire to claim her? Even in roleplaying way? It’s about putting you desire out there, in a bold way.

    “You are mine. I want you.”

    Super hot feeling for a girl. That is what she wants.

    In the way of a challenge to TheRedQuests advice about the terms we offer women… Can you give a woman the feeling of being claimed with the terms he advises?

    I would say mostly not. So she won’t open up. You’ll get 1/2 of her. And then you won’t like her. So you offer less.. things fizzle fast.

    An arms race of weak offers.

    Not always, but there is something to consider.

    Liked by 1 person

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