Sonny Arvado and Pancake Mouse on the image match and reciprocity

This turned into a ramble post… enter at your own risk.

I read 29 Truths About Game because of Pancake Mouse’s link, and it is an interesting post very much in the vein of Good Looking Loser (it sounds like Chris from GLL and even reads like it at times). Sonny Arvado is very much of the “get jacked and go hit on chicks” school. I notice this: “the Karmic Laws of the Universe are pretty airtight” and “People tend to get their IMAGE MATCH. They date people on a similar level in the eyes of society.” This seems mostly true. It’s very uncommon to see incredibly disparate people together. When you do see it, it stands out. When I brought Ms. Slav to Thanksgiving, we stood out… she is too young for me in the eyes of most people, so we made no sense together. But she feels much more mature for her age than most chicks her age, and I… well, I am the “black sheep” in many ways. SA Girl and some other chicks from my life have been like this too. The older I get… the wider the age spread gets… the more I experience this disjunction.

BUT: I also stand out among my peer group. I am more serious about diet and lifting than pretty much anyone else I know. I watch less TV and do less social media than pretty much anyone else I know who is my age and younger. I’m not sure that these young tight chicks are my “image match.” But there is less separation between us than there is for most guys my age and younger chicks. This is why game people say guys need to work on value and value delivery mechanisms together. Only do value, and you are on the self-improvement hamster wheel instead of getting laid. Only do value delivery, and if you don’t have underlying value, most hotter chicks will blow you off.

It helps to have a life that is somewhat, a little bit together. I have met chicks whose lives are not going well. They are not fun to be around, even when they are physically attractive. Their desperation manifests itself, sometimes in strange ways. Bike Girl was a little bit like this. Her life was okay but she had no career, at an age when career-focused girls (and guys) are really starting to ascend, and people who focus on partying and/or just drifting / dreaming / arts are starting to struggle or suffer. The older you are, the harder it is to be the party guy, without substantial financial resources. Not impossible, just harder. (All generalization I make should be seen as generalizations… I can think of exceptions to all of them.)

I have gone on some dates with chicks who admit their primary dating goal is getting a free meal because they have no money. I prefer later meets at alcohol venues… that avoids such chicks pretty easily.

The guys who completely neglect looks, though, pretty much suffer. We live in the wealthiest time period in human history. Most girls who want to be self-sufficient, will be self-sufficient, easily. Most attractive girls can sell sex any time they like, ranging from full-on sex to being a restaurant hostess. Attractive chicks don’t want or need money alone. Money and earning power is nice, layered on an attractive guy, but it is rarely enough. Maybe for guys with really spectacular amounts of money. Not for guys who are anywhere near normal. And a guy who is “money first” will at best attract girls who feel the same. Not a smart thing. The best girls are typically looking for the “full package.”

One advantage with younger girls is that they rarely reek of desperations (“rarely” is not “never,” like girls trying to steal meals from stupid guys online). They may be making bad choices, but the bad choices haven’t yet caught up with them. Chicks in their late 20s to early 30s, often stew in their bad choices. I have dated some of these chicks, seen the hungry look in their eyes when they see me and think, “Okay, he’s dominant and non-pussy enough, but he’s also got a job… I should take this one and make him mine.” Hasn’t worked yet. I’m pretty lucky I’ve not gotten baby-trapped.

It’s also possible to change girls’s personalities, somewhat. Not totally. Most chicks who get with me find that they read more, they cook more, they work out more, and they spend somewhat less time in bars. They also go to different kinds of parties.

I have had consistent interesting challenges where girls want to go to generic concerts and I do not. Like, at all. I’m fine with chicks going to concerts, although I know that most people also use concerts to change their mental states and put them in a more sexual frame of mind. Chicks who like concerts or even worse music festivals very much go in my “low priority” box.

I’ve also never been much a nightgame guy. I just don’t like it. I find it boring and fake. One reason I like sex clubs is because I find them exciting and authentic (in the right circumstances, on the right nights… on the wrong night they are horrible and I leave). I did do some parties and bar things in my early to mid 20s, when my entire peer group was also doing those things, but they didn’t favor my personality much then and they REALLY don’t favor my personality much now.

Some young chicks find me boring, and they are pretty much right. A super high-energy chick who wants to go out three to five nights a week… is not going to like me much. And I’m not going to like her. Those kinds of girls also either have to be rich with family money, or they are going to burn out quickly. I’m not big on economically dysfunctional girls, as that is usually also an indication of psychological dysfunction. I can go there, but those girls will often not be into me.

Like finds like.

I like what Arvado says about “Like finds like.” Krauser’s story is interesting because he has some pictures of himself and his friend Mike in his memoirs, and they’re both fat. If not outright fat, at least tubby. Yet they seem to overcome some of their physical deficits through sheer effort. That’s pretty impressive to me. But they both meld their ENTIRE lives around pickup. Sounds hard and exhausting.

I do know a lot of people, but often through business. So hot young chicks who are party animals will find me boring. But young chicks who attend to more conventional status markers will like what they see, sometimes.

I like making and learning things.

I tend to like girls who are above-average in intelligence. I don’t mind average-intelligence girls, but they tend not to like me so much. A lot of girls who are most into me, find most guys kind of boring. I have been told a lot that I am strange because I’m very interested in body/physical development but am not a stupid meathead. Many girls seem to think they must have one or the other. As regular readers know I like some very unconventional things, and try to lead new girls into those things, which repels some girls but intensely attracts others. Girls have said they don’t know what box to put me in. That makes sense, actually. They are also seeing the results of someone who has spent almost no time watching TV, playing video games, or being on social media. When you cut out a lot of the crap and instead spend time learning and developing, you get interesting results. Uncommon results. Chicks are used to common guys, or guys who uncommon in a few specific ways. They are not used to guys who have focused on both mind and body. They are often a little wrong-footed as they get to know me.

Chicks also recognize that high-status guys are often on the market for pretty short periods of time. A chick has to act fast.

So this is a bit of a ramble. I don’t know how much you have to learn from Sonny, beyond GET JACKED and do the right diet… useful, sure. I have written before that there are some kind of silly debates between “inner” and “outer” game.

I find them silly because the two tend to feed into each other. Guys who improve their own psychologies tend to also improve their bodies, fashion, living situation, etc. Guys who lift, dress better, stand up straight, etc. tend to also improve their interior mental status. “Inner” and “outer” are recursive feedback loops. Work on them both. Let one influence the other. You can find guys with greater outer and no inner and vice-versa, they are just rare.

I have spent a lot of my life working on self development. When a chick is with me, I tend to try and help her work on her own self development too. Chicks who don’t want to do that, tend not to stay with me much. They get bored and leave.

Chicks tell me they can’t figure me out… I like that. I am not so complicated and don’t want to pretend to be. But most chicks, they seem to encounter guys who are all mind or all muscle (or neither). Then they find me… who is pretty hard to push around and has been for a while (I was easier to push around when I was younger and dumber).

Author: The Red Quest

How can we live and be in society?

14 thoughts on “Sonny Arvado and Pancake Mouse on the image match and reciprocity”

  1. I’m not sure that these young tight chicks are my “image match.”

    Hard to say, I haven’t met them or you, but if you add 20 years to your age, do you think they’d be in your social circle? If so, I’d say yes, more or less.

    “Chicks tell me they can’t figure me out… I like that”

    Same, but I’m not sure if I like it. I like it for myself, but I don’t like it for “dating”. For hot young girls, they just don’t have the attention span to try to figure out who you are as a person. I think of it like: if she can’t explain me to her friends in a sentence, it’s probably not working out.

    So I tend to get the more intelligent girls, whether I like it or not.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Self-aware post.

    If you are a feminine man, you will get a more masculine woman.
    There is NOTHING wrong with this.

    It will feel CORRECT.

    men who chase that which is too different will just suffer heartache and uncertainty. they will feel like impostors.

    the better way to put this is….

    the more male gender norms you tick off, the more female gender norms she will.

    here’s the list:

    tall white athletic tough competitive autonomous rich worldly deep voice (counts more than you believe) stoic

    compensation WORKS, mind you.

    a man who is neither tall nor white can maximize athleticism — which is why short men can and SHOULD get jacked.
    a man who is inexperienced can make up for this by being fiercely unique and original.
    a man who is poor as we know can maximize physical attributes and vice versa.
    a less stoic man can be more competitive (passion is great if in the service of a competitive activity)

    but so can women.

    short white svelte soft diplomatic compassionate chaste high voice emotional

    a non-chaste woman can compensate with a really really hot body (don’t kid yourself)
    a tough woman can compensate by being very loyal/compassionate
    and so on.

    so a man and a woman can become MORE masculine and feminine if they choose.
    but whatever boxes you tick on the gender norm bingo sheet, your partner will likely tick off on theirs. and where you are weak, they will be strong, and vice versa.

    Like

  3. You say that festival girls are low on your priority list. But I must say, a lot of the “hot / popular” girls in the 18-24 demographic are festival girls. Sure, they are vapid and shallow, but they are also the hottest. I’d like to know why they are so low on the list – especially if considering just having some fun / casual sex.
    Great blog by the way. I’m a friend of pancake mouse through the RooshV forums.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. 100% fair about festival girls. I just don’t like concerts or music festivals and those venues don’t highlight my strengths. If you’re into them, you should do them and enjoy their fruits. Most of the girls in those venues also don’t respond incredibly well to me.

      For guys, I think it’s useful to find a funnel, ecosystem, or set of game ideas that work with, instead of against, your native personality. If you have a native social, party boy personality, festivals and clubs are probably great for you. If you have a native introvert, mentalized personality, those venues are probably not great, so daygame will probably work better. Some guys can work all those different venues/funnels.

      Like

  4. > I’m not sure that these young tight chicks are my “image match.”
    — TRQ

    Like you, I date girls 15-20+ years younger than me. Miss Nervous (recent lay) was 26 yrs younger. I look a bit young for my age (my face, a bit, but my hair is >50% grey), dress young, decent shape… but the age difference is very real.

    But I think the girls I date are, certainly my “image match” in terms of OVERALL value.

    I think it IS rare to see a big mismatch int the sexual market place. There is a lot of inefficiency in the SMP (missed opportunities… unbrokered deals that need to happen), but there isn’t that much “inaccuracy.”

    If we play up a girl’s youth/beauty (and we should), we play up the “inner”/overall value of a man as the equivalent. So I date 6s and 7s, but they are often very young, at least pretty cute, often times with very good bodies. I also tend to date smart girls from good families. Not always rich, but often. Always well educated. Etc. That is a lot of value.

    Miss Thick ^ was all that. A solid 7. Maybe high-7 on the right day. 15 years younger than me. Smart girl. Successful. Brilliant artist. Wealthy family. And we were… a very good match for a long time. I could see “stars in her eyes” for me, much of the time. Those “stars” were her telling me… we were at least a good match (or she thought she was getting the better deal… at least until the end).

    When the SMP does form a match, it is fairly efficient. She was my “image match.” I had something(s) to offer that made a girl like that feel eager to spend time with a man like me. And it wasn’t promises of the future or cash (not at all). I took her/I out to dinner, but other than that… I never spent any money on that girl (so it wasn’t that) – in fact, she brought me presents constantly.

    I like the idea of image match, but from my POV… age is a less powerful indicator of “match” for men like TRQ and I. Our age is often neither here/there. The match is in areas of more “intense value.” Age is pretty passive in terms of intensity of value.

    Like

    1. Depends on the girl too. Some girls like older guys. Some really don’t. Some are open for the right ones. I want to be open to opportunities… and I want to make opportunities happen. The book helps do both, for the right guys, I think.

      Like

  5. Right now I think we’re on the edge of big shift coming in the sexual marketplace, especially re: image match. Women–especially younger ones–are starting to figure out that they can’t get their “value” by dating younger men (like, under 30). Yes those guys can look really good, so in terms of pure physical appearance they’re an image match, but in terms of value, energy, maturity, confidence, etc., her looks (value) are far beyond what any younger guy can realistically bring, unless he’s the QB of a college or something like that. In other words, a 23 yo F who’s a 9 does not equal a 23 yo M who’s a 9 in terms of value.

    It’s also true that some girls still think it’s “icky” to date an older guy (as any guy who does day or night game knows–“how old are you?” isn’t just a shit test–for some girls it’s a deal breaker), but that’s purely a social stigma and it’s being eroded as we speak. Just this week I think I saw 3 or 4 articles on various platforms where younger women are touting the benefits of dating older men.

    As we all know, chicks are far more feral and red pill than men–yes they’re very much in tune with society’s expectations and such, but their biological drive to fuck men who have high value can’t really be overridden. What I think we’ll see in the next ten years is a shift where it’s quite common for women to date men 10-15 years older. The idea that we should pair off mainly by age only works in a monogamous society where lots of people get and stay married. Being that this isn’t the case anymore, I expect it’ll go away pretty quickly. And for guys who are skeptical, think about this: there was once a time when it was exceedingly rare for a woman to sleep with a guy she was dating who wasn’t strongly being considered for marriage. We’re talking 6 months to a year before fucking. But look at how that has shifted where now chicks will often fuck guys on the first date, hook-up culture rules the day, and having a one night stand isn’t a big deal. All it takes is enough younger chicks dating older guys to get to the tipping point where it’s normal.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Women also know or have learned about the infinite man buffet online https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/02/modern-dating-odds-economy-apps-tinder-math/606982/. This seems to make women less happy and more flighty.

      >>“It’s like, ‘If this doesn’t go well, there are 20 other guys who look like you in my inbox.’ And I’m sure they feel the same way—that there are 20 other girls who are willing to hang out, or whatever,” she said. “People are seen as commodities, as opposed to individuals.”

      Women are training guys to treat them like commodities.

      >> The unfortunate coincidence is that the fine-tuned analysis of dating’s numbers game and the streamlining of its trial-and-error process of shopping around have taken place as dating’s definition has expanded from “the search for a suitable marriage partner” into something decidedly more ambiguous

      If this is how it’s going to be, why not do sex clubs and parties? She’s into ambiguity anyway.

      Like

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