“The three phases of the seducer | Hans Cormyn” is a good Nash essay that hits something I have been trying to articulate here and there and yet have been unable to articulate… it’s the third point in this series,
THE THREE PHASES OF THE SEDUCER.
— First Phase: “Does she like me?”
— Second Phase: “Do I like her?”
— Third Phase: “What do I need to do to make her feel beautiful?”
The “Third Phase” only happens, though, when the chick is deeply into your world/frame. Kind of like what I write about in “Status/coolness first, THEN evangelize for whatever the thing is” and “The holidays are coming up: shit tests, comfort tests, and gifts [intermediate and above]:” a chick has to feel that she is earning validation of her beauty from a high-status, cool guy in order for that validation to mean anything. Lots of chicks can get meaningless validation from whoever… but that validation is garbage. It’s like a moron admiring your intelligence. If a moron compliments you on how smart you are, do you take the compliment seriously? Of course not. Same thing here, with chicks.
Most chicks, when you get underneath their social surface and social armor (many guys never do), are just not very confident. Even many very beautiful women are insecure about their looks, their relationships with guys, etc. Many women really are like liquids, looking for vessels to give them shape and purpose. The better you know chicks, the more apparent this becomes.
Even a lot of bitchy, unappealing behavior comes from a place of weakness, fear, and uncertainty… not a place of strength. When I have written about trying to build women up… this is what I am trying to get at. Most chicks are adrift and need a man’s approval, but most guys don’t recognize this dynamic and only perceive the surface level. That was true of me for a long time.
When we laugh at or ignore shit tests, when we’re non-reactive to some kinds of typical bad female behavior, when we laugh off rejection and go find a chick worthy of our attention… we are working at these deeper levels. I think I only began to access these deeper levels around age 30. It took me like 15 years to figure out they exist. It’s hard to get below the surface level. I think a lot of guys who get this low, find a woman or two or three they want to be with and drop out of the conventional dating market.
Over time… a lot of time, too much time… I’ve figured out that even a lot of very attractive chicks are insecure about their looks, bodies, and performance. Why? They are comparing themselves to chicks who are +2 or +3 above them… they are comparing themselves to bullshit photoshopped advertisements… they are comparing themselves to the chicks they think the guy they most desire can get. There is still a lot of sex negativity in society, so chicks are worried because they know guys want sex (just as chicks do), but chicks worry about their reputations, what will happen if they seem to like sex too much, etc. etc. Chicks compete with each other quite a bit, and many chicks are worried about what their stupid friends will think of their sexual behavior. Mature, psychologically stable chicks won’t have these problems, or will understand that they need to mute these problems, but the number of mature, psychologically stable chicks is small.
So a guy who a chick heavily invests in… she really wants his validation and reassurance. That is valuable to her. Validation that she is beautiful, that she is not a slut, that she is doing good and normal things, etc. She is probably pretty uncertain about herself because she is looking “up” at the hottest/coolest/most whatever chicks (and dudes). You can call this an aspect of hypergamy if you want… I’m not a huge fan of emphasizing that idea, so I’ll mention it and move on. A girl wants to feel like she is replaceable but simultaneously that she will not be replaced.
That’s a hard place to be.
The girl I call SA girl… was not convinced of her own (phenomenal) good looks. Neither was a girl I met a couple years ago, who worked at a coffee shop…. very solid 8 while naked, yet convinced of all sorts of weird stuff, like her butt was too big (quite small, actually, too small for some guys likely), or that her boobs were asymmetrical (they were, very slightly, which is totally normal). And the number of girls who have a love-hate relationship with sex… too many to count. That is why Dr. Ruth is so famous, as she talked about sex honestly and positively… even today that is quite rare.
So a lot of chicks are scared and looking for validation from top guys. Sort of like guys are looking for validation from chicks; is my dick big enough, do I last long enough, am I better than her ex, can this girl finally bestow confidence on me, etc. etc. All the insecurities that the Internet seduction boards overflow with.
A lot of guys are insecure themselves, and/or chasing girls way above them in SMV, and/or wrongly fixated on one girl whose acceptance or, more often, rejection they hang their whole self-image on. If you’re a guy in middle or high school… and your experience of chicks is based on chasing the top 10% of chicks (there are some age effects at work too, more on those later), many of whom are themselves uncertain, scared, etc… you might perceive chicks as having all the power. “Bottom” guys who never adequately develop themselves, yet desire top-tier chicks, experience the same. Many of them experience chicks as having all the power, and guys as having little or none.
I perceived life that way until I was in my early 20s or so. It took me a long time to understand the chicks’s perspectives… to read evolutionary biology books… to talk to chicks who I might perceive as having the power, to realize the chick herself doesn’t perceive that… to understand the weird paradoxes that underlie a lot of female psychology. For a guy, too, understanding that a lot of chicks are just f**king random goes a long way to explaining a given woman’s behavior. The woman herself probably doesn’t know what’s driving her… how can a guy expect her to articulate it to him? Male sexual desire is also a pretty simple algorithm: more sex with any acceptably hot chick is a win. Female sexual psychology is more elaborate, more contingent, more confused, more uncertain. Guys try to solve it like it’s an engineering problem, only to discover a lot of chicks don’t work that way.
A successful player gets to know chicks… and sees many of their internal uncertainties… and realizes that chicks need the guy to help them be whole. Ms. Slav has some of that, though the ways in which she does are too specific for me to state them here. The girl I call “#2” in the book had a LOT of that, because she couldn’t process her own inner roaring sexual desire with her societal conditioning, so she needed me to process it externally for her. SA Girl had had a bad boyfriend or something like that and had somewhat stunted sexual expression and expectation because of it. Low-cut top girl seemed to be pretty complete, actually, though she has other problems in my view. Peaches also seems pretty complete. Most the chicks I slept with in college weren’t that complete, but largely as a function of age, their own uncertainty, and the uncertainties of the guys around them.
Young and inexperienced guys think chicks have all the power. That’s because they don’t get that 1. Chicks bear greater sex risk via pregnancy, 2. From puberty well into the 20s, chicks have greater sexual power than dudes on average, and 3. Most chicks are looking to “date up” and often have the ability to do so. Almost all guys can find at least ONE CHICK who will be into them… the problem is the quality of that chick…
There is also the notion, now somewhat common among guys in the seduction community boards, that chicks just get their sexual market value, while guys often have to earn their SMV. This is basically true. An attractive girl just shows up to the dance, if you will, and has a lot of value by virtue of being hot. There are a small number of guys like that, but most guys have to earn it or build it. What “earning” or “building” means will differ by age.
By age 30, the sexual marketplace switches around a lot of the time, since guys are willing to date from age 18 on up, while most chicks want their age or older. They get fewer options and their biological clocks are ticking. Many are encumbered by children. So a lot of guys from puberty well into their 20s perceive chicks as having all the sexual power… and yet that can change, if the guy keeps working on his value and is willing to date the full spectrum of chicks. Guys also don’t realize that some percentage of young chicks are getting trained by much older dudes in sex arts and confidence. I didn’t fully get that when I was younger… now that I have been the trainer, I get it.
Then there is the sex itself. If you understand female physiology, you understand that most chicks cannot orgasm without clitoral stimulation (there are exceptions; one of my favorite girls was an exception). That is why I wrote Tell your girl to use a vibrator during sex, and other bedroom tips. Chances are that she needs her fingers or your tongue on her clit to orgasm, and this is not always easy/simple during PIV intercourse. But most chicks never think to add toys or, if they do, they worry that the guy is going to think he is not enough or, worse, that she is a sex-crazy slut. Many guys, meanwhile, feel they are not a REAL MAN if she does orgasm ALL OVER HIS MAGIC PENIS. Because it is MAGIC, she CRAVES it uncontrollably. Sometimes this can happen, yes, and it has happened to me… more often, she needs the full-body experience. But she wants it without feeling bad. Who can deliver that feeling to her?
Guys who don’t work to develop their value, game, etc., never see the uncertain, fearful, anxious sides of attractive women. Top players do.
By the way, I still get ice cold rejections from chicks, blowouts, etc. I’m not some super-player. But I have learned (mostly) to let it go. And I have seen enough of chicks to see that many are worth trying to “build up…” but only AFTER they have invested deeply in me (or you). If you try to build up a chick who has not invested in you, you are just another beta dude feeding her free and unearned resources, attention, etc. As so often happens, there are guys talking past each other online, at different “levels” of the game or seduction process. A guy at one level, may not even PERCEIVE the other level(s) are there. This goes both ways, too. A bottom guy reading this will see women’s bitchy, cold social armor and think most of this post is ridiculous. A top guy reading this post may read it and think that it’s obvious to him, isn’t it obvious to every guy? I have been both in my life, at different times, with different chicks, etc. Probably my biggest transition is to let a lot of the bullshit go, to stop feeding attention to chicks who aren’t going in the direction I want them to go, to accept that most chicks will say no, to focus attention on the chicks who say yes or who are on the path to saying yes. A chick who is fundamentally a “no…” needs to be chucked. A girl who is a “maybe” is where a lot of the game is.
21 thoughts on “Most chicks feel anxiety and uncertainty, and most guys never realize it”
Great summary, this is a key dynamic between men and women.
Women are attracted to power. This is what turns them on, but it’s also what makes them feel safe.
Think about it, women are evolved to mate with the best men they can, raise babies, and get resource support from their men/tribe the best they can. They are not adapted to interact and leave their mark on the world like men are – before modern civilization women were dependent on men for survival. The instinct remains.
To be attractive to women, to have satisfying sex and relationships with them, you have to be the man. You have to lead, you have to be the reliable “rock” that she relies on. She reflects your emotions. You are a “fort” in which she can finally relax and be her full feminine self, because she trusts you. This is true of both casual and more serious relationships. It’s even why comfort is needed as part of the standard attraction>comfort>escalation model.
I’m not talking about being beta vs alpha. It’s about being strong and consistent, and then she chooses to be a part of that world you can control, or she doesn’t. They need to feel that. This is your value as a man.
That phrase “to stop feeding attention to chicks who aren’t going in the direction I want them to go, to accept that most chicks will say no” applies at multiple stages: talking to her for the first time, getting her into bed, deciding whether to take her into a relationship (not necessarily monogamous) or just make her a fuckbuddy, drawing her deeper into your life and shaping her as a person. At each of these stages, it rarely works well to force things too hard. She has to want it at least a little (and you have to be a man who can provide it). A man has to accept that he’ll have to weed through a lot of girls to find the yes-girls and maybe-girls. A man has to have the strength of ego to survive a lot of “no”s.
This ties back to the fact that I found the seduction community back when everyone was big on aloofness, and how that b.s. held me back for years. I didn’t have the courage to face the “no”s, and the nonsense about faking disinterest gave me an excuse to be cowardly.
Currently I have a woman who’s invested in me, and I’m guiding and shaping her and teaching her confidence. I’m not sure I’m good at it, but it’s thanks to the community (and blogs like this) that I know it’s important for me to learn how, and embrace an opportunity like this when it comes.
> the seduction community back when everyone was big on aloofness, and how that b.s. held me back for years. I didn’t have the courage to face the “no”s, and the nonsense about faking disinterest gave me an excuse to be cowardly.
I think ^ this is a very common experience. And you are dead-on when you say men use that as a way to weasel out of greatness.
> By the way, I still get ice cold rejections from chicks, blowouts, etc. I’m not some super-player. But I have > learned (mostly) to let it go. And I have seen enough of chicks to see that many are worth trying to “build up…” > but only AFTER they have invested deeply in me (or you).
This is what frustrates me most about some red pill guys–they act as if you’re a true “alpha”, every chick will want you to bang her… and that’s just not true. Not even remotely.
If I could sum up the difference between men and women in terms of sexuality, it’s this simple fact: a super hot 20 something girl could literally sleep with every heterosexual man on the planet by simply stating that was what she wanted.
But the reverse isn’t true. We could line up Ryan Gosling, or Idris Elba, or some other super hot Hollywood star, and some significant portion of women would not have sex with him for any number of reasons, and for another significant portion, the sex would be conditional (wine and dine, movie, long walk on the beach, etc.).
And this gets to Nash’s point (via Cormyn) about making her feel beautiful–that’s game. It’s why cold approach works so effectively. You are making her feel beautiful while demonstrating value, which makes the attention all the more validating. One of my best openers is simply, “you looked so lovely I had to come and say hello,” or some variation of that.
A mediocre girl can light up and suddenly gain a few attractiveness points after a compliment.
It’s like turning on a light switch, the suddenness of it. The shy yet beaming and gushing smile of appreciation.
And it really feels like real sex. Just that one or two seconds. Knowing she will pass by, two ships in the night, never any chance to see each other again. It’s still sex. It feels like sex, those few seconds, looking at each other in the eye.
What’s your cold approach to lay ratio?
I’m not a True Scotsman.
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> But the reverse isn’t true. We could line up Ryan Gosling, or Idris Elba, or some other super hot Hollywood star, and some significant portion of women would not have sex with him for any number of reasons
You’re right. MM%.
This part stands out to me: “For any number of reasons.”
> This is what frustrates me most about some red pill guys–they act as if you’re a true “alpha”, every chick will want you to bang her… and that’s just not true. Not even remotely.
Yes. And WHY they won’t fuck you… could be… ANY NUMBER OF REASONS. (including that they think alpha-LARPers are retards).
If it is true that men tend over subscribe to literal, linear logic (I believe that is true)… we could see how (some) men’s explanations of the SMP could be so sophomoric. Or worse (“I notice when lots of people carry umbrellas, it tends to rain that day”).
This ridiculous expectation of cause and effect. Even when they have the attribution correct (in terms of order of effect), the slavish devotion to expectations. Often they don’t have a high likelihood theory (most theories are low-likelihood), they have the causation wrong, and their expectations are off.
FOR ANY NUMBER OF REASONS.
^ This will give you peace… and bring you closer to the reality of the nonsensical of the SMP.
I am increasingly into the idea that SEDUCTION IS AN ART. It is not… a science. All beginners are wise to cozy up to science. And all experts… to realize… at the higher levels… we make bets… based on experience/intuition… and if we win… that is how we win.
This is also why I think guys that don’t like women or the process of seduction are in a particular flavor of hell… I love the process (mostly). And I have theories and effort. And when I am surprised… I know…
ANY NUMBER OF REASONS.
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“the seduction community back when everyone was big on aloofness, and how that b.s. held me back for years. ”
That used to piss me off so hard. At the time I wrote what seemed like dozens of posts against the idea. If felt as if I was the only voice, stating the obvious, as loud as I could. It felt as if no one was listening. So incredibly frustrating. Yes, exactly. I knew how damaging that idea was. I fought my best against it, swimming against the tide, getting nothing but flack at the time.
Really fucking stupid idea. Heartiste is a good writer, but not a good person.
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Getting angry at people online seems like a waste of emotion. Reality offers useful feedback to those who believe incorrect ideas.
Having incorrect ideas is just human nature.
But sometimes people do what seems not much different than preaching for others to use crack cocaine, and try to build up a church of crack cocaine.
In such cases, it’s also human nature to have social concern, and to try to prevent a crack cocaine epidemic.
We are evolved to have social concern. It’s an emotion people don’t talk about much, but it’s very common. It’s similar to a sense of justice. We simply don’t like to see people causing harm.
And the commentor above mentioned that the incorrect ideas had a negative impact on his life.
It’s one thing to use crack, and be open and honest about it.
It’s another thing to preach using crack.
I’m a libertine and lean towards letting everyone do their own thing. But doing your own thing is not the same as setting up Charles Manson church.
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Some influencers, such as Roosh and Heartiste, rigorously police the conversations such that alternate viewpoints can not be expressed on their platforms.
Heartiste is well known to go so far as to actually edit peoples comments, such that the comments say different things than the commentor was trying to say.
He did this to my comments several times. This could not be apparent to the other readers, and he would not allow comments on his blog that called him out on this.
I’ve heard the same thing from many other people.
So this goes beyond having opionions and speaking your mind. It becomes much closer to brainwashing people. And this can cause real harm. It’s not theoretical.
Charles Manson didn’t actually do any murders, yet wound up in jail, merely for being influential.
It’s not just a game. It’s not just all live and let live, laissez fair. It’s very real cause and very real effect.
@theredquest, you’ve mentioned before that many of the people attracted to redpill and manosphere forums are there because of social deficits.
They are, in some ways weak and vulnerable.
They can’t know what they don’t know. They are not in a position to judge for themselves, to pick and choose the wheat from the chaffe. They simply lack the life experience to be able to do so.
A persuasive writer can be analogous to a bully picking on a retard, if he is persuasive for personal gain.
You may have heard of a once popular character called Christian Mcqueen. It’s been said by some that he is in fact parasitical. https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-45406.html
The weak in society need ombudsmen. There are predators everywhere, and the manosphere/redpill sphere is full of them.
It can take years and years for them to be caught out. By then so much real damage is done.
@xsplat Says the guy who moderates his own blog excessively and didn’t publish my comment about a legit concern about his over the top bragging how strong he is.
I did a google search for xsplat aloof and there are many cranky posts. But this is the anti heartiste meme post that really riled me up at the time.
Aloofness as ultimate game is stupid and toxic enough, but fake it until you make it confidence is king. Man. Eye rolling is not argument, so I wrote against that as best as I could at the time also.
Swimming against the stream. Never thanked. Never noticed. But things did change. Heartistes ideas are no longer mainstream – the stream is now in my direction.
> a chick has to feel that she is earning validation of her beauty from a high-status, cool guy in order for that validation to mean anything
This is completely TRUE… and IMAO, not what Hans Comyn is getting at when he says “how can I make her feel beautiful?”
The emphasis is on FEEL. That is what Third Phase is about, as I see it. And I happen to think this is about what you do with her “in the moment,” not how she thinks of herself when you’re not around.
I don’t believe he is talking about validating her, or setting her on the path… he is talking about, in that moment, making her SHINE. Making her FEEL as if she is shining. It’s entirely an emotional thing.
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> I’ve figured out that even a lot of very attractive chicks are insecure about their looks, bodies, and performance
> trying to build women up
> and realizes that chicks need the guy to help them be whole
This ^ is a very interesting topic, I just don’t happen to think it what Hans is pointing to.
Separately, RedCoCo has been talking about a quality of “sadness” in many woman’s lives (and men, for that matter). Women will show this to men in intimate encounters. It is true.
RedQuest is an interesting example the women in his life stick around. That is a powerful indicator of the mettle of a man (very healthy sign, IMAO). And he is down this path about “shaping her self esteem” as he is with her long enough to not only see beneath the facade, but also want to shape her (even if that’s only so she is more enjoyable to be around).
As for Hans point… I think he is more about managing the Bubble. That “bubble of you and her” in that moment. And in that bubble… making her shine.
If society expectations or self esteem were a thing for her… I think Hans is pointing us to sweep that aside for her. Not solve it… just “wave it away”… for a moment… maybe longer.
Low self esteem, or a deeper sadness are real… I have seen them in women. And mostly, in short-terms bursts of intimacy with a woman, I am not concerned. I work on Bubble Management, and those things “don’t exist” while she and I are together and that is part of why she loves me.
Proper Patriarchs and aspiring husbands would be wise to look at how to “build her up.” Players and seducers… less so.
One way to make her feel beautiful is to make sure there is nothing in the space but beauty. It’s about striping it back to only that. A pure space. Just being in a pure space could make her feel beautiful.
Most of the time, her insecurities are likely less of an issue than the lack of attention we put specifically on her. We don’t have to solve her inner daemons… we just need to take her to a moment where she can’t see those daemons. A vacation from herself… that can be a kind of gift.
We have to get OUR INSECURITY daemons out of the way (that is First Phase). And get our CONQUEST/ONE-TRACK-MIND/NOTCH HUNTER daemons out of the way… and then clear her daemons out of the way… and, assuming charm and a more… she is ready to surrender.
I think a lot of high level seduction works in that space.
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“@xsplat Says the guy who moderates his own blog excessively and didn’t publish my comment about a legit concern about his over the top bragging how strong he is.”
Fine. I took your blog comment out of moderation. I’m not going to reply to it, for what should seem obvious reasons. I would have thought you’d thank me for not allowing that comment, it’s extremely embarassing. To you.
That you can’t see that means Yohami was right. Stop doing game. Work on yourself.
Can you expand on the love-hate relationship girls have towards sex?