Putting the girl into the friend zone: a kind of mean story from college

Many guys are used to stupidly putting themselves in the friend zone, sometimes even saying that the girl has friend-zoned him when that is not possible without the guy’s consent… but it is also possible to do the reverse, if you have sufficient SMV, and something like this happened to me in college. I made it happen, sort of, without knowing WTF I was doing at the time, like the sorcerer’s apprentice playing with magic. There were a bit more women than men at my school and that led to some good things for me, including meeting this girl, Holly, at a house party, because she was wearing a short skirt and had a nice body while she was dancing. I made out with her but didn’t have good logistics locked down… I should have tried to f**k her in a quiet nook but I didn’t have the escalation skills or daring I do now. I tried to get her back to my place but her friends stopped me/her.

Next night we went to dinner, came back to watch a movie, f**ked like animals instead. I was 20 and Holly was 18/19. The f**king continued on a daily or twice daily level… she was not a great talker or thinker… not then anyway… I’m not sure what we talked about besides school and gossip… but she sure did love to f**k and that was great. Guess we didn’t need a lot more. Short Dancer was a little like this too.

So Holly and I f**ked a lot but were always hard-up for logistics because of our living arrangements, her in a dorm and me in a shared house. So we got creative and f**ked in a lot of places. Holly had two roommates at the time, one a weird girl, maybe asexual or something, the other a friend of Holly’s and part of a larger group of like 10 – 12 girls who hung out together. Holly’s roommate Sarah was like… a 4? Even at age 18/19. Not due to exercise, but perhaps due to horrible diet or just bad genetics… I feel bad for those girls… there is very little they can do to improve their SMV if the genetics are weighted that far against them. Unlike men, they can’t even substitute achievement and income for raw sex appeal.

Sarah was well frustrated by being young and horny and surrounded by college guys… while not being very attractive and not able to even be flirted with by most of the guys. She was also frustrated that she was out of my kill zone and I was busy f**king her sexier roommate as often as possible.

Sarah offered threeways pretty early on, while drunk, and I turned her down using some moronic reason that was not the truth. Sarah would basically sexually harass me, and I’d laugh about it as she felt up my arse or abs. Holly would also laugh, and now I think there was a bit of dominance play between them… Holly knew Sarah was not a threat and never would be. So Sarah would get her little bits of excitement… but not much else. Friend zone, but for girls.

Eventually I did let Sarah give me blowjobs, with Holly in the room, and then f**ked Holly, telling Sarah that I was addicted to and only interested in Holly’s p***y. A kind of lame excuse, but… I was young and stupid? I hadn’t been seeing Holly all that long but had already f**ked her many times when all three of us came back from a party and I let them blindfold me, then I had to guess who was going down on me (couldn’t tell). When I got tired of the game I said that I needed to f**k Holly and told Sarah to masturbate… and then hold my balls when I was getting close to finishing, and as I finished… it was a turn-on for me but in retrospect it must have been kind of humiliating for Sarah and I’m not sure why I did it that time and a number of times after, except for some ego trip. I should have kept clearer boundaries… but when you have the power… it is tempting to use it… that idea explains a lot of random chick behavior… most guys lack the experience to understand it, having never had substantial sexual power.

Holly had a sliver of time between a class of hers and Sarah coming back, when her dorm room was free for sex, but we had to be quick about it to beat Sarah… who knew that after she found us lounging and breathing heavily… which made her hustle back earlier… and then I told her to hold my balls while I finished in her roommate, so we got into this pattern, one that she liked too much. Not sure how many times we did this sort of thing, probably 8 or 10… not all the time but often enough. Most of our friends saw us f**king at one time or another… college is an interesting time to discover exhibitionist tendencies, since a ton of single people are crammed into a small space, making the market super thick and interconnected. And it meant a lot of walking on other people having sex, or having people walk in on you having sex, then pretending to be embarrassed about it, when it was a turn-on.

I should have said no to Sarah altogether. Holly was among the hotter girls in her friend group, and many of the other girls were fine people, just… not very hot.

Among the hotter girls but maybe not the hottest  in the larger group of girls there was another girl, also named Holly, who knew a bit about our adventures and came back from a party with us one night to have a very nice threesome, although my primary Holly was angry about me raw-dogging Holly #2 (who was bent over and going down on Holly 1). This was also one of my early experiences with girls cheating, as Holly 2 had a boyfriend at another school and she claimed she broke up with him the next day. At the time the cheating I saw confused me… I thought girls didn’t really do that? It was one of the early experiences that made me question the feminist educational system and common culture claims. I can be dense so it took me a lot longer than I want to admit to realize how common cheating is among women. Women are smarter about cheating and much quieter about it than men are.

Men want everyone to know they can get p***y, women want no one to know that they deviate from the monogamy society script.

Holly was very high libido, the first woman I can recall with a higher capacity for sex than me. Would get very horny within like 30 seconds of kissing. Fondle her tits? She’d be ready in a minute or two, desperate for it a few minutes after that. Her whole body was an erogenous zone. She was great… just not quite as hot as I’d have liked her to be. Not quite all the way there. But she loved sex, liked me, and was uninhibited about her love of sex, which was very nice… still is very nice. Some women never get over the sex negativity that’s instilled in them by the culture. Some are just really fussy and their fussiness becomes too annoying to deal with.

Holly #2 was a solid 8. Very hot. Holly 1 wasn’t very bi but would kiss and touch other girls… Holly 2 went further. We had 2 – 3 drunken threesomes with her… I was in the weird position of chasing one threesome while trying to push off the other, with Sarah… then I got Holly #2 alone for some very hot sex. Hot for both of us. She was a curiously reserved girl who I never got a handle on. I knew her even less than I knew Holly 1. I think Holly 2 was a bit of princess/primadonna and saw me as socially and sexually proven by Holly 1, plus once I had f**ked her once I didn’t “count” as a new lay and therefore made for a fine person to experiment with while she sought a boyfriend. Or let one find her. I don’t think she expended energy or effort dating… just picked from the guys in front of her. Even in an environment numerically stacked against her I’m sure she did fine.

Unfortunately, Holly #1 knew I wanted to raw dog her and she had a thing against BC, and back then IUDs were either unavailable or not as common as they are now. She was sufficiently drunk to let me a couple times, but then would regret it later that night or the next morning, leading to strife between us. A summer intervened, and we were too far away from each other for easy visits so we had a kind of “don’t ask don’t tell” thing, except that neither of us articulated it… I worked a job that gave me a lots of access to pretty girls, and I don’t remember what she did that summer except that we didn’t talk that much. She wasn’t a great talker or an intellectually interesting girl, but she f**ked great.

Back at school again Holly #1 realized what was up at some point, although nothing dramatic happened like her walking in on Holly #2 and me. She did walk in one day and ask point blank, “Are you f**king Holly #2?” Young-me decided on the brazen defense and was like, “Yeah, of course, you were there for it.” Of course Holly hadn’t agreed to me f**king her friend on the sly and that was it for us, although I tried (and failed) to get her back round for some easy late night hookups. I also didn’t have any of the context for non-monogamy that I do now, so I was a dead dog. I understood very little of what was happening… that is why I try to be compassionate to younger guys… most of the time they are running on instinct and subconscious.

Holly was a clean no-contact girl, made easier by the fact that our friend circles and social lives had pretty much no overlap. She must have gotten to Holly #2 cause she disappeared as well.

Like most young guys, I had no idea what was going on and was stumbling my way forward. At the time I had no true understanding of women and thought I had gotten lucky and stumbled into some nymphomaniacs or something. Now I realize that Holly #1 was just a pretty open and adventurous girl and she was looking to keep me happy, and Holly #2 was kind of similar but also didn’t want to be with her (high school?) boyfriend anymore.

I’d also been flirting with another girl I knew through a school club, so when Holly departed I immediately tried that girl, who came over for beer and a movie and wanted to know about Holly me and when I was like “We broke up,” she practically purred. Getting her to actual sex took a bit more effort and more than one date cause she was one of those “everything but PIV sex” girls, but she was amenable to persuasion over time. She was also the hot one of a group of less attractive friends.

Both Hollies got other boyfriends and I heard almost nothing from either them again. I believe Holly #1 married the guy after me. Both Hollies have kids and live in suburbs now, from what I can tell. I don’t know if Sarah ever got to feel another guy’s balls as he finished inside a different girl, or if that was just one of her crazy college experiences, the kind she won’t tell her future husband about. It’s bad to humiliate people… and I think I did that… somewhat… but in the moment we do things we regret later. Making the forebrain and hindbrain 100% congruent is hard… if not impossible.

Pablo Picasso, the artist and player

Pablo Picasso, artist and hard-core player… we can see the hard-core player shine through the shrewish writer’s blinding hate in The entwined lives of Françoise Gilot and Pablo Picasso. “Over the previous three years, Gilot and Picasso—who were 21 and 61, respectively, when they met—had a drawn-out courtship and then spent a short period living together in Picasso’s Paris studio. The relationship hadn’t been entirely smooth, but it had been magnetic and intimate.” Damn, that guy was still tapping prime in his 60s. The artistic form of seduction gets too little play among Red Pill guys… it needs to be better foregrounded.

Picasso knows women better than any writing player I know of, “After reprimanding and trying to comfort her, he offered up his grand solution for Gilot’s problems: She should have a baby.” “You won’t know what it means to be a woman until you have a child.”

“By the time she met Picasso, Gilot had determined that she was going to be an artist.” One of the best ways for an attractive woman to get help is by f**king the artist. This route isn’t available to guys… we have to get by on our merits, not our p***ies. Now, second-rate women painters are getting their works put on in art museums because they f**ked first-rate male painters. Women can f**k their way to fame… I sound like I’m knocking it, but I’m not… if I could, I might. That option is foreclosed to me due to gender. Men and women are different.

Guys also know that a chick who is “artistic” in some way is really communicating that she likes to f**k… being “artistic” is like having tattoos… it says, “My parents divorced…” or “seduce me…” or “I am a s**t.” As is usual among women, Gilot doesn’t take responsibility for her romantic choices. She knew Picasso was a player… she got involved with him anyway… she later regretted it… then the regret became her reality. To women, the only reality is the one she feels right now. Women are fundamentally irresponsible, and as men we should know that. But we should also believe women who are trying to tell us they are irresponsible and not capable of consistency in their romantic affairs. Picasso’s personality is 100% clear from the beginning, but Gilot likes him because he’s famous and interesting. She was beautiful and could have had any stolid provider guy she wanted… but she chose to sail into the tempest. Beautiful women have all the choice in the world.

The tragedy of women is that their peak value hits in the mid to late teens, peaks in the mid 20s, and begins to decline by age 30. For some women value may remain pretty high but really begins to crater by age 40. The high value window is so brief. Many guys, if they work hard, can achieve peak value from the mid 20s all the way into the 50s. For women… that peak is far earlier. By age 40, a woman without a family is like a horse without legs: a tragedy. The other tragedy is that fewer women today see this fact coming. Instead, many women spend their days cramming their faces with sugars and wheat, staring into their phones like their phones will product a happy life (they will not), and complaining bitterly about where all the good men are.

Where I’m on-board with alternative lifestyles and where I deviate

Someone wrote about their experiences,

>>I bailed on the SF hippies… and you overlap with them in many ways… but are wiser, as I see it.

I have some overlap, but the SF hippies have no knowledge of history (communes and free love have been tried), no knowledge of evolutionary biology, no knowledge of economics, and no knowledge of game theory. Their ideology is usually one that allows them to attempt to take value without offering similar value in return. The minute you get into that kind of situation, things fall apart fast (this is why socialism doesn’t work: lack of reciprocity and encouraging people to take without giving). Evolutionary biologist Geoffrey Miller describes SF hippie weaknesses, “Polyamory Is Growing—And We Need To Get Serious About It.” The hippies, consciously “alt” type people… are not serious about it. Fine, good for them. I have run into them now and then, then go about my business, ignoring them. The hotter women… almost all have some sense of their value, and they don’t want to give that away. The low-value women are fine with the hippie thing.

I DO want to make the world a better place. I DO think monogamy doesn’t work for many people. I DO want to have ecstatic experiences. So we have some things in common. But I am too pragmatic for SF hippies.

Marriage today is a problem because it assumes lifelong partnership and a stay-at-home wife who should get half the resources in the event of divorce. Today, most partnerships are not lifelong and most wives don’t stay at home or maintain themselves or submit to their husbands sexually or be truly monogamous. Marriage lets women take without giving… like socialism, it fails for a lot of people. So the whole marriage contract makes no sense, for anyone who thinks about it for ten minutes.

I think kids are important, but marriage is bad… almost no one is thinking this through. Most people maybe need the romantic mystification to have kids. They believe the lifelong love myth, long enough to have a couple kids, then they get divorced, which is catastrophic for the individual, but maybe good for the group and society and the selfish genes.

So I am thinking about how to have shorter-term pair bonds, how to have kids, how to negotiate those kinds of things, but without the marriage expectation.

Most chicks have not thought about any of this stuff either. When I introduce a chick to non-monogamy, she can later get the rest of my payload and my theories / interests, cause she is starting to get it, to see things differently. Sort of like how pickup and dating advice from pickup artists leads a lot of guys into the Red Pill. It starts at sex… then it leads towards other places. Political and societal places.

I don’t think I have all the answers… I am trying to follow the thread.

I have also been called calculated and similar things by chicks… the chicks are probably right. It is a downside to the analytic mindset. I don’t have as much of the passionate, headlong rush in me.

Stability and novelty/pleasure are probably just not going to happen fully together. Possible solutions to this problem interest me.

How to frame and execute nude photo shoots with women

A player, “Mr. V.,” who knows about my nude photography art habit, asks how I do it… I’ve talked about the principles before, but now for some detail…

• After sex, I tell her to pose, or to hold, then I grab the camera and start shooting… a real, standalone camera. Sometimes I’ll tell her the light looks good or she looks good right there, that kind of thing that makes her purr. Something to make her think that it’s not random jerk-off material but artistic. Girls have been going for the “You look special just now, spread your legs” line since primitive men first took charcoal to cave walls. It worked for Picasso, it worked for Lucian Freud, it worked well enough for that weird artistic guy with long hair in undergrad art classes, it will work fine for you if you’re high value, have good game, and the girl is in your frame. Sometimes I’ll say something about her being especially attractive. After sex, women are eager to hear they’re still sexy, desirable, and good, and that the guy doesn’t dislike them during post-nut clarity. Snuggling, cuddling, and bonding during this period is important. She needs male attention to come back down to the regular world. And… they are still in a sex-positive mood and receptive to the camera’s eye.
• From there I just kind of assume the sale and turn on the camera while we’re fucking or beforehand. Or I’ll say, “We should make a sex tape,” then do it. I almost never ask explicitly… very much try to assume the sale. Most women will go along with this in the moment, particularly if they’re already turned on.
• Because the woman is turned on already, that may be why a lot of chicks will ask the next day for me to delete the photos… she gets caught up in the moment while aroused. The next day, in a cold state, she worries about her reputation, shame, etc. What if it gets out? I am the kind of gentleman who will tell her that I deleted them.
• The number who refuse pics altogether is small… but out there. It’s all in the game.
• Sometimes I start out with only her backside (no face) and then move forward. Like with a lot of things, chicks might start out uncomfortable with things but then inch into full comfort. The more invested she is, the more likely she’ll want to serve as your muse and model.
• Having a true standalone camera produces superior results and also feels different to the woman than a guy with a phone. She feels more like a desired model. Every guy has a phone. Be different.
• Some chicks will show the results to their friends. This seems like a demonstration of higher value (DHV).
• If she’s a hard no, let it go. A playful disposition will often help her overcome initial shyness.
• It is good to learn basic photography.

If she’s a hard “no” accept that. There is “yes,” “maybe” “soft (negotiable) no” and “hard no.” Negotiation is the subject of many books so I won’t write a whole thing about it now. Recognizing the hard no and the soft no is a job of the player.

When a woman sends nudes before sex it’s a bad sign, in my experience. Still not 100% sure why but I have some theories in the other post. I personally haven’t gotten a lot of this but I’ve seen a little. I also don’t request nudes from women, almost ever. I think requesting phone nudes is a demonstration of lower value (DLV) and also most women are inept photographers with inept cameras, poor light, and poor composition.

Pacing and seduction

Pacing in seduction is tricky, because it’s bad to hurry her excessively but it’s also bad to be lazy. Don’t be too languid either. You want enough energy to generate some heat but not so much that you’re panting after her like a dog. A lot of chicks, maybe all of them, know guys who, with the slightest hint of interest, go from 0 to 100 in terms of attention and demands. A frenzy of interest that turns the chick off. At the start of the process, however, the guy must put in far more energy than the girl. That’s the apparent paradox.

Just being able to take your time at almost any stage of the process sets you apart from the competition. Being able to read her and read social cues is rare when it should be common. No one teaches these things so guys have to learn on our own.

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A random thought from twitter: “When you push far enough, almost everything we do is a cover for lust and a way to push those genes into the next generation.” Including work, school, etc.

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The central innovation I have offered is pretty clear, although I don’t think it’s for most guys. Talking to the guys who have been trying these techniques has been clarifying and I have added a lot to the book, refining it too, because of these conversations. I’m trying to distil 10 – 11 years of experience. Some high highs, some low lows. A lot of my game I’ve stumbled into accidentally, so I’m trying to help guys think deliberately about what they can do, if they want to do some of the things I have done. I have learned a lot from the players writing online… I want to give a little bit back.

Home Friend, again, and the cycle guys choose

(This one happened a few months ago, so it’s far out of date… wrote it at the time and then forgot to post.)

Home Friend. Remember her? Barely? Me too. She swung back around for a c**k ride, which seems to be happening every couple months… I wouldn’t mind her being more reliable but I do like her naked and bent over for me, so what can I say? Except that I am not doing the things I keep saying I need to do.

This time I talked more deeply with Home Friend, and it turns out that she has been dating a guy… I think she began dating him a while ago. They became “official” at some point, relatively recently I believe, since she was not in town for quite a while, but she is vague on when precisely she got back… fine with me… I am her side piece and she is mine, or one of mine, it would appear. “Official.” Did she have another “official” boyfriend in like the last year? I can’t keep all of the chick crazy stories straight. Home Friend’s latest boyfriend was apparently f**king another girl, and she figured this out by showing up at his place unannounced and the other girl was there. He wouldn’t let her in, and she is not a total idiot.

She was angry while telling me the story….. then she started crying! This is after the f**king, during which she was not crying, fortunately, because I am not a fan of crying chicks, although dating chicks means you will deal with tears. Things like this have happened before. I come across as sufficiently non-judgmental that chicks pour out their hearts and thoughts to me…… and they are pretty red pill most of the time…… and usually the chicks are missing an important piece of the puzzle, just like young guys who don’t understand why they can’t get the top chicks. My guess is this guy did the classic thing a lot of players seem to do,

• He likes some chick well enough. Most importantly, she is getting naked for him regularly.
• He really likes f**king the chick regularly.
• He also really wants to f**k other chicks, if he can… a big “if” for most guys. Most guys lack knowledge. It’s sad, but true.
• He knows chick #1 will turn off the sex if he won’t make it “official.”
• So he makes it “official” while continuing to f**k other chicks, or trying to. Home Friend has a pretty conventional girl mind… she’s not proven susceptible to alternate mental frameworks, like mine.
• “Official” girlfriend eventually figures it out. Or the side chick tells her. There are any number of ways for this to blow up.

I have been talking about non-monogamy as a way of getting around some of these problems. Some of you readers say that guys who do “official” girlfriend thing are idiots, and maybe probably that’s true, but I am also that idiot, right now, and I am doing things I really shouldn’t be doing, so yeah. The right thing is easy to do when you are debating it on the internet but sometimes harder to do when you confront it in real life.

I digress. Home Friend seemed surprised when I told her a lightened, edited, sanitized version of the above. I don’t think she’s ever thought of it this way before, despite her hanging around me, and despite her and Ms. Slav and me together. Most chicks…… they don’t understand the lives and minds of guys. Guys don’t get chicks either. We are not reaching across that divide.

At times I will point out to Home Friend, and chicks like her, that the guys she likes most are also… tall, good-looking, have good social sense (approach her, escalate her, etc.), and they are probably applying those same good attributes to other girls, so why doesn’t Home Friend go choose a guy who is shy, likes her, and is maybe a little scared to approach her, or intimidated by her? She didn’t appear to understand why she would do this. Her language skills are improved but she doesn’t read nuance well… I think if they had been better, she would have said what some chicks have admitted, that they want hot challenging guys and not really the guys who are available to them.

They want guys +1 or more above them in sexual market value (SMV). The story of modern dating is all about SMV mismatch, combined with hypergamy. Most girls don’t know the word “hypergamy” even as they enact it every day and with everything they do. Home Friend is a young hot girl so not many guys are above her in SMV… but she is not the hottest girl, so she’s stuck thinking about the hottest of the hot girls, who she thinks of as her competitors. She is stuck until she changes, or until she finds a guy who’ll do the things she wants. She might find him! She is hot, but she is also kind of placid, so she is only really choosing from the guys who come onto her, from what I can tell… I have seen almost nothing of her behavior in the wild. She uses alcohol to free herself and do some hookups, I believe, which leave her feeling bad and empty in the morning.

I said it the last time, but this is the last time. With her anyway. I need to not be like the player she found with another girl in bed! It will happen to you if you pursue that route.

Let’s talk about another player. I have been talking to a player who is going to a sex club pretty soon, or maybe he has already been? He seems to have uncovered a sex demon woman and it looks like he might bang one of her (attractive) friends as well. This is not a widely-appreciated part of f**king high-libido, no-jealousy women: you can end up f**king a lot of chicks, sometimes without trying very hard. She may end up being your wing woman. Like, when I was seeing Ms. Slav properly, I ended up in the double digits of random affiliated f**ks, and that is with me not even trying all that hard. Home Friend is part of the Ms. Slav run-off. And she is very attractive! Flakey as hell, but attractive.

If a guy manages to snare a chick like this and wants to have a lot of casual sex with different women…… he can do it. I have been through this cycle a number of times. I think it’s great… it solves some of the problems I mention above. The trick is finding an attractive woman who is into this. They exist, but there aren’t a huge number of them, and they are often already tied to a primary partner.

Some of them also haven’t learned about consensual non-monogamy. The player I’ve been talking to seems to have a woman like this, who is learning about it from him. I hope he’ll write a field report about his experiences. I also don’t know where he’ll end up going.

“I Thought I Wanted to Go It Alone” Narrator: “She did not.”

“I Thought I Wanted to Go It Alone,” a woman writes, as if she is a snake or a lizard, rather than a human. Narrator: “She did not.” No one really wants to go it alone… everyone wants to go it with someone like +2 SMV… and if that cannot be achieved… then it’s time to “go it alone” as a pose. Humans are social beings and almost none of us really want to go it alone. When someone says they want to go it alone, male or female, they are almost always posturing.

This woman has the usual delusional woman problems, “What broke my state? A few things, really. I passed 35 and wanted a baby. I fell in love and was mercilessly dumped.” Of course she wanted a baby, no one gives a f**k about their career accomplishments, compared with their family networks… and that goes triply for chicks.  Somehow almost no one among professional women circles talks honestly about this. “Your Professional Decline Is Coming (Much) Sooner Than You Think.” For chicks it’s worse, cause their SMV decline starts around age 30 and accelerates by 35.

Smart chicks understand the fleeting nature of youth and beauty and focus on having a family. They might go through a sexually adventurous and experimental phase lasting a few months to a few years, but they understand that they should have a good route from maidan to mother to crone. It’s not hard, and most chicks’s grandmas could probably tell them what to do.

I should stop posting this kind of shit… there’s so much of it… yet delusion is kind of fascinating… I think the best players understand delusion pretty well.

Responsibility and later seduction. Internal congruence

Another topic that gets no play in the Red Pill and seduction communities, cause most guys don’t get to this later stage, it is not good to trifle with women who are heavily investing in you. This damages the woman and while it is psychologically appealing to the guy (it’s nice to have the attention and desire you can return… or not), but it creates bad feelings and outcomes. Power over women who invest happens after the guy gets game and deploys it effectively, meaning that most guys never get it and this post is not for them, so this subject confuses them, like stories about a culture they’ve never visited and can’t believe exists.

I know the logical counter to this point (about the wisdom of refusing or discouraging investment that won’t be reciprocated)… “But chicks do this all the time!” True, true. But mature chicks don’t encourage male investment and male suitors who don’t interest them. Immature chicks… greedy chicks… they will, and that’s why so many younger guys have problems with the “friend zone” and perceived female uncertainty. Younger guys don’t follow the algorithm and don’t effectively sort girls into ones who might f**k and ones who won’t. I didn’t either when I was young & stupid, not to worry. I was afraid of “no,” when “no” is a gift, a gift of my time & attention so that I can direct them consciously into better things.

Mature guys… also don’t spend a lot of time and investment in women who are unlikely to be lovers. If a woman isn’t interested… the guy withdraws and finds a woman who is. Many chicks, if attention and gifts are foisted on them by inept men, will accept those… but if you are foisting gifts on a woman who hasn’t earned them, then you kinda deserve what you get. Immature guys believe gifts and attention should be rewarded with sex… when it’s actually closer to the other way around. No one in our female-dominated culture discusses to this.

This gets me to my point… when a woman’s emotions and sex habits are connecting and converging into you… it is not good to trifle with her, lead her on, and jerk her around. You will damage her, and inflict needless cruelty, and for what? If you have decent game, the sex part may be challenging, but it shouldn’t be infinitely so.

Some dysfunctional women prematurely invest when they shouldn’t, or they can’t help themselves because the man is unusual and matches their interest, or is much higher SMV than they are. If she does that… it is not your fault. But you should let go, want to let go, chicks who are deeply converting but who you don’t fancy in that way. At least tell them that you’re not going to be their boyfriend but can be their lover. Set expectations.

This is emerging from my own experiences and from conversation with a player who is interested in non-monogamy and who has found a woman who has also been searching for this her entire life, searching for a way to reconcile mind and body, emotions and physicality. Like libido girl and a number of others I’ve met, she craves the novelty of new sex… but wants a relationship too. Most guys, if they advance from casual sex into something more structured with a woman, won’t want a woman like this (they really want a woman who will be monogamous to them). There are a lot of pretend non-monogamous guys, and even more strictly monogamous guys (when you get down to it). Women who are sexually adventurous but with hearts and the desire to pair-bond… it’s actually not easy for them. Even with monogamous women, their real, true, and full investment is intense. For the bulk of guys who have never experienced the intensity of female emotional and sexual investment…. this issue will be invisible. Like “how to end it” with a woman. It’s advanced stuff. Beginners mistake compassion for weakness. Don’t worry, I did too, once.

I’m against being mean to people. Yes, women will sometimes be mean to you, they will try to take value from you without giving it in return. Yes, it is sometimes appropriate to be mean to people, or direct in a way that is seen as mean. But what is perceived as mean or cruel is often just a balancing of the scales of value.

Notice what I am NOT doing. I am not arguing against casual sex (it would be funny if I did, given my history). I am not arguing against deepening relationships with women. I am not arguing that women are innocent damsels (they are not, and the innocent damsel trope is a lie men tell themselves in order to be p***y… in the real world, almost no one is “innocent”). “Beyond casual sex” is more fun than just f**king strangers in my view. But… I am arguing that it’s bad for you and for the woman to let a woman deeply invest in your and convert to you, if you don’t set expectations, or if you plan to just let her dangle. Cut her loose and let her invest in someone else. The world is already harsh and full of bitterness…. no need to make it harsher and more bitter. It’s bad for the man’s subconscious. Keeping your subconscious aligned with your accessible consciousness is a part of frame, a part of being congruent that, again, no one talks about. Low status guys, f**ked up guys, are incongruent, and their low value and incongruence messes with their inner game. Higher-status, higher-class guys maintain congruence and have a keen sense of loose equality in terms of value given and value taken. This is getting a bit on the “hippie” side of things, about consciousness development, but I think that’s where the the higher levels of game live. Levels a lot of guys never hit, cause they can’t get past the lower levels.

Most women, by the way, never access higher levels of consciousness. If they do, they are already post-wall, and it is too late for them to access those levels via sexuality. Most younger women rely on men to get them there, and most men disappoint. That’s part of the reason we see the discord we see.

Seek for the higher levels. Discourage investment where it’s not warranted. If you see signs of her emotional investment, decide consciously if you want to respond in kind or keep her at a distance. The beginning parts of the game are important but so is the middle and end, where few guys live and where almost no guys writing online discuss.

The more time you spend around women, the more you realize most of them are basically irresponsible and want someone else to make decisions for them. This is why we have the crazy Title IX man-hunting tribunal in the United States and why so many women distance themselves from their sexual choices. This is also why so few women make it to the top of corporate and other hierarchies, because an individual has to be intensely responsible for his choices if he’s going to be a leader, not just a follower—something that most women can’t do. Men who have a lot of experience with women also learn that most women like to follow and so men are reluctant to put women in leadership roles, for good reason. Almost no feminists will admit this, leading to the absurd statements about women in companies that shrieking harpies propagate in the media.

I actually have no problem with women running companies or whatever, but I don’t think you’ll ever see as many women in leadership roles because it’s contrary to baseline female psychology. If a woman wants to be responsible for a large company and has the personality and intellect to do so, then that’s dandy. It’s just unlikely. Most women want men to take responsibility for them… and when she lets a guy into her soul, and then he chucks her aside, she’s wounded. Try not to let her do that. A guy who starts off low status might want to be mean, as revenge… but he’s really taking revenge on himself, for putting up with behavior he shouldn’t have. No reason to do that. The world is hard enough.

Group sex and the shift from scarcity to abundance

An anonymous player I know says,

Group sex has fundamentally shifted my thoughts about Red Pill and seduction. I cannot understate the change in me. It really does feel like a shift from scarcity to abundance.

I know this feeling and yet no other writing players I’m aware of are tapping non-monogamy and groups. Threesome and group sex fantasies are very common among both men and women, as women themselves attest, but most women are passive and lack the leadership necessary to make their fantasies reality. Very few women know guys who can pull off executing these fantasies, so, if you become that guy, you are by definition not a commodity guy. Women are bombarded by commodity guys with basic or no sex skills, and a guy who can unlock their dirtier fantasies is not that guy. If you tap into the sex club world, you will also end up unlocking a pool of girls who are pre-selected for liking to f**k a lot… and then you can f**k them.

Women have the fantasy, but the group-sex reality usually needs deep coordination between the participants, especially for MFM. The threesome management guide I wrote probably understates the degree to which coordination is important. Ideally all the players should cooperate and coordinate, but the temptation to defect remains potent in many threesome situations, and it often happens that one party is less active during some parts than the other two parties. This can lead to feelings of isolation and being left out, particularly because most threesomes happen between an established couple and a third person. The third person often brings new relationship energy (NRE) in with them.

After an MFM or FMF, the aftercare for the girl is super important. Many girls will experience sub-drop, and the girl may be susceptible to feelings of worthlessness, low sexual marketplace value, disgust, regret, etc. The girl may need reaffirmation that she is a good person, that sexuality is fun and normal, that she is not dirty or degraded, and that she’s not just a f**k-toy for men. That means she probably needs to be held, cuddled, chatted with, etc. The man should check in with her the next day, in person if possible. It’s a good idea to do a non-sexual or low-sexual date as soon as possible, like getting coffee or going for a walk. This allows her to process the intensity of the group sex situation and feel that her normal life is not disturbed by what she may feel are depraved fantasies.

All of these challenges can be overcome and mitigated, but the novice group-sex initiate often doesn’t anticipate them. I don’t think I anticipated them effectively. I also didn’t anticipate how it was possible to combine non-monogamy, game, and sex clubs to unlock abundance and commodification.

Another player says,

I thought you need to be an experienced player to do threesomes and group sex and now I organised MFM is less than four months in a game with a first regular after four months dry spell. Wtf is going on?

I can understand it… and that is part of the reason I like it… and also part of the reason I think the rest of my game has improved… I genuinely don’t give a fuck if any individual girl is into me or not, which makes them more into me, and protects my vibe/state during cold streaks. I know that I’ll end up getting laid one way or another… so if she wants these peak experiences, she needs to enter my world. That’s kind of the attitude, or the frame. Many women reject the gift… and that’s fine… most people’s lives are kind of crappy.

I want to emphasize that I care a lot about the women in my life who I choose and who choose me, and with whom I have a tight bond. Many guys get hurt or angry when a strange women rejects them. That’s the wrong way to think about it, although I understand how desperation and horniness drives guys to think that way. The woman who offers a swift rejection gives you the gift of your time and attention, to better deploy them. Time is always finite, and one modern tragedy is the way people waste it on social media.

The player who organised the MFM also substituted (some) knowledge for experience. That is the beauty and magic of books… they accelerate learning. Reading a book is no perfect substitute for experience, as should be obvious, but the player who’s read it has the intellectual and social framework for implementing group sex and non-monogamy ideas. I had to build up those things from scratch.

I think most guys think threesomes “just happen” after a bunch of drinking and lucky circumstances. You are taking “just happens” and making an industrial process or algorithm out of it. Once you have the fundamental, you know what to do. Discovering the algorithm is hard, but implementing it is (relatively) easy. The free book allows guys to get past the innovation phase and towards the engineering/implementation phase.

One theme you’ve seen running through this blog is about markets, supply, and demand. Magnum tweeted out The Dating Market: Thesis Overview, about dating market dynamics… “A conservative estimate of the percentage of new relationships begun online in 2019 is at least 65%, but likely over 75%.” “The social costs of rejecting a potential mate are now likewise effectively zero, making introductions within existing social groups (friends, family friends, church, etc.) structurally inferior propositions given significant social and reputational risk in the event of an adverse outcome.”

The age dynamic creates significant inter-age cohort competition in the female population and increased overall competition in the male population. This can be conceptualized as the market becoming more efficient, which naturally leads to many market participants anecdotally expressing unhappiness with the status quo as they incorrectly identify an inability to produce low effort excess returns as the circumstances being “unfair.” Basically, the same thing is happening in the dating market as is happening in the Hedge Fund market: things are getting more efficient, very few are pleased about it, and there are lots of strange advice books, blogs, and videos coming out.

But for top guys, women become a commodity… something this author has missed.

We could say, “Sometimes it seems to me that a good unified theory of modern society’s anxieties might be ‘everything is too efficient and it’s exhausting.'” Dating is more efficient in some ways, but less efficient in others. Most chicks can’t accurately assess a guy through his online bullshit. Most guys however can accurately assess about how hot a chick is. So chicks have lots of choices without good ways of navigating those choices. This seems like a detour, but the market for basic guys is flooded.

The market for guys who can make a woman’s sexual fantasies come true remains thin. Most guys can’t do this. I’m teaching guys how not to be like most guys. I don’t know, maybe in 10 years all guys will have threesomes and group sex in their quivers, and it won’t be a significant differentiator. For right now, today, it sure is. I am helping guys get out of the efficient markets and into inefficient markets for making fantasies happen. If every guy is on Tinder he will be judged accurately and harshly as a commodity, but if he is doing daygame, building his value, and offering enticing non-commodity experiences, well then he’s going to offer unusual value.

I also think most guys and chicks are doing online dating poorly, but that is a rant for another time.

New thread, a player had an MFM and then worked through the aftermath of it,

We did a debrief today and discussed the good, the bad and the ugly of the MFM. One lesson learnt for me was having a second crack at [girl] while [player 1] was in the shower. We cleared that up and agreed no more sex unless he or I are back in the room with our main girl.

Personally I’m not worried about sex happening with the main girl while I’m not in the room, provided that I trust the other guy. But I understand where these rules come from. In addition, applying this kind of business logic or practice to sex is also how to build skills rapidly. Most guys, especially younger guys who have not been in the work world, are not familiar with these kinds of practices. There are different formal methodologies for this, like six sigma, but they are pretty similar. Smart businesses know they are key to rapidly building skills and improving product, service, etc. There is no reason they cannot or should not also be applied to seduction… or in this case to group sex. Most of us have ego defenses that inhibit us from getting honest negative feedback, but the good/bad/ugly mechanism or mechanisms like it help us overcome ego defenses and work to maximize skill improvement.

After intense group sex experiences it’s often good to run through these kinds of things to determine what limits and boundaries are there as well as how to make them better next time. Each individual and couple needs to work out their own rules and principles, and I can’t do that for them.

Overall, these players are hitting many of the expected milestones, so it’s positive to see that my experience doesn’t seem to be unique but instead is part of a pattern that is replicable by others.

Loneliness and long term versus libido

It seems like there’s some trade-off between loneliness and libido, in a way that I didn’t feel when I was younger. For quite a few years I wanted to f**k as many hot chicks as possible, as often as I could, and when I did that, it was good. Body, soul, and psyche in perfect alignment. I still want to do that, but there is an undercurrent of loneliness and melancholy to random hookups, even with really hot chicks (some of me going on about the subject, here, here, probably some other spots too). That means I should seek something longer term, right?

Then… there is the libido thing… when I see or worse interact with a hot chick, I still want to f**k her. There are some ways to try and minimize the distinction between them… but I don’t think they’re going away, as a trade off.

I don’t have the typical 2,000 words of elaboration on the theme… it’s just a feeling that I’ve had for a while. Life is about contending with problems, not about ease. When I think about the long term, I want companionship. When I think about the next hour, I want a hot wet naked chick writhing underneath me. I think about some of the gorgeous and wonderful women I had writhing underneath me five or seven years ago, and I can barely remember some of them, in some cases. Their effect on the current life is almost zero.