Responsibility and later seduction. Internal congruence

Another topic that gets no play in the Red Pill and seduction communities, cause most guys don’t get to this later stage, it is not good to trifle with women who are heavily investing in you. This damages the woman and while it is psychologically appealing to the guy (it’s nice to have the attention and desire you can return… or not), but it creates bad feelings and outcomes. Power over women who invest happens after the guy gets game and deploys it effectively, meaning that most guys never get it and this post is not for them, so this subject confuses them, like stories about a culture they’ve never visited and can’t believe exists.

I know the logical counter to this point (about the wisdom of refusing or discouraging investment that won’t be reciprocated)… “But chicks do this all the time!” True, true. But mature chicks don’t encourage male investment and male suitors who don’t interest them. Immature chicks… greedy chicks… they will, and that’s why so many younger guys have problems with the “friend zone” and perceived female uncertainty. Younger guys don’t follow the algorithm and don’t effectively sort girls into ones who might f**k and ones who won’t. I didn’t either when I was young & stupid, not to worry. I was afraid of “no,” when “no” is a gift, a gift of my time & attention so that I can direct them consciously into better things.

Mature guys… also don’t spend a lot of time and investment in women who are unlikely to be lovers. If a woman isn’t interested… the guy withdraws and finds a woman who is. Many chicks, if attention and gifts are foisted on them by inept men, will accept those… but if you are foisting gifts on a woman who hasn’t earned them, then you kinda deserve what you get. Immature guys believe gifts and attention should be rewarded with sex… when it’s actually closer to the other way around. No one in our female-dominated culture discusses to this.

This gets me to my point… when a woman’s emotions and sex habits are connecting and converging into you… it is not good to trifle with her, lead her on, and jerk her around. You will damage her, and inflict needless cruelty, and for what? If you have decent game, the sex part may be challenging, but it shouldn’t be infinitely so.

Some dysfunctional women prematurely invest when they shouldn’t, or they can’t help themselves because the man is unusual and matches their interest, or is much higher SMV than they are. If she does that… it is not your fault. But you should let go, want to let go, chicks who are deeply converting but who you don’t fancy in that way. At least tell them that you’re not going to be their boyfriend but can be their lover. Set expectations.

This is emerging from my own experiences and from conversation with a player who is interested in non-monogamy and who has found a woman who has also been searching for this her entire life, searching for a way to reconcile mind and body, emotions and physicality. Like libido girl and a number of others I’ve met, she craves the novelty of new sex… but wants a relationship too. Most guys, if they advance from casual sex into something more structured with a woman, won’t want a woman like this (they really want a woman who will be monogamous to them). There are a lot of pretend non-monogamous guys, and even more strictly monogamous guys (when you get down to it). Women who are sexually adventurous but with hearts and the desire to pair-bond… it’s actually not easy for them. Even with monogamous women, their real, true, and full investment is intense. For the bulk of guys who have never experienced the intensity of female emotional and sexual investment…. this issue will be invisible. Like “how to end it” with a woman. It’s advanced stuff. Beginners mistake compassion for weakness. Don’t worry, I did too, once.

I’m against being mean to people. Yes, women will sometimes be mean to you, they will try to take value from you without giving it in return. Yes, it is sometimes appropriate to be mean to people, or direct in a way that is seen as mean. But what is perceived as mean or cruel is often just a balancing of the scales of value.

Notice what I am NOT doing. I am not arguing against casual sex (it would be funny if I did, given my history). I am not arguing against deepening relationships with women. I am not arguing that women are innocent damsels (they are not, and the innocent damsel trope is a lie men tell themselves in order to be p***y… in the real world, almost no one is “innocent”). “Beyond casual sex” is more fun than just f**king strangers in my view. But… I am arguing that it’s bad for you and for the woman to let a woman deeply invest in your and convert to you, if you don’t set expectations, or if you plan to just let her dangle. Cut her loose and let her invest in someone else. The world is already harsh and full of bitterness…. no need to make it harsher and more bitter. It’s bad for the man’s subconscious. Keeping your subconscious aligned with your accessible consciousness is a part of frame, a part of being congruent that, again, no one talks about. Low status guys, f**ked up guys, are incongruent, and their low value and incongruence messes with their inner game. Higher-status, higher-class guys maintain congruence and have a keen sense of loose equality in terms of value given and value taken. This is getting a bit on the “hippie” side of things, about consciousness development, but I think that’s where the the higher levels of game live. Levels a lot of guys never hit, cause they can’t get past the lower levels.

Most women, by the way, never access higher levels of consciousness. If they do, they are already post-wall, and it is too late for them to access those levels via sexuality. Most younger women rely on men to get them there, and most men disappoint. That’s part of the reason we see the discord we see.

Seek for the higher levels. Discourage investment where it’s not warranted. If you see signs of her emotional investment, decide consciously if you want to respond in kind or keep her at a distance. The beginning parts of the game are important but so is the middle and end, where few guys live and where almost no guys writing online discuss.

The more time you spend around women, the more you realize most of them are basically irresponsible and want someone else to make decisions for them. This is why we have the crazy Title IX man-hunting tribunal in the United States and why so many women distance themselves from their sexual choices. This is also why so few women make it to the top of corporate and other hierarchies, because an individual has to be intensely responsible for his choices if he’s going to be a leader, not just a follower—something that most women can’t do. Men who have a lot of experience with women also learn that most women like to follow and so men are reluctant to put women in leadership roles, for good reason. Almost no feminists will admit this, leading to the absurd statements about women in companies that shrieking harpies propagate in the media.

I actually have no problem with women running companies or whatever, but I don’t think you’ll ever see as many women in leadership roles because it’s contrary to baseline female psychology. If a woman wants to be responsible for a large company and has the personality and intellect to do so, then that’s dandy. It’s just unlikely. Most women want men to take responsibility for them… and when she lets a guy into her soul, and then he chucks her aside, she’s wounded. Try not to let her do that. A guy who starts off low status might want to be mean, as revenge… but he’s really taking revenge on himself, for putting up with behavior he shouldn’t have. No reason to do that. The world is hard enough.

Group sex and the shift from scarcity to abundance

An anonymous player I know says,

Group sex has fundamentally shifted my thoughts about Red Pill and seduction. I cannot understate the change in me. It really does feel like a shift from scarcity to abundance.

I know this feeling and yet no other writing players I’m aware of are tapping non-monogamy and groups. Threesome and group sex fantasies are very common among both men and women, as women themselves attest, but most women are passive and lack the leadership necessary to make their fantasies reality. Very few women know guys who can pull off executing these fantasies, so, if you become that guy, you are by definition not a commodity guy. Women are bombarded by commodity guys with basic or no sex skills, and a guy who can unlock their dirtier fantasies is not that guy. If you tap into the sex club world, you will also end up unlocking a pool of girls who are pre-selected for liking to f**k a lot… and then you can f**k them.

Women have the fantasy, but the group-sex reality usually needs deep coordination between the participants, especially for MFM. The threesome management guide I wrote probably understates the degree to which coordination is important. Ideally all the players should cooperate and coordinate, but the temptation to defect remains potent in many threesome situations, and it often happens that one party is less active during some parts than the other two parties. This can lead to feelings of isolation and being left out, particularly because most threesomes happen between an established couple and a third person. The third person often brings new relationship energy (NRE) in with them.

After an MFM or FMF, the aftercare for the girl is super important. Many girls will experience sub-drop, and the girl may be susceptible to feelings of worthlessness, low sexual marketplace value, disgust, regret, etc. The girl may need reaffirmation that she is a good person, that sexuality is fun and normal, that she is not dirty or degraded, and that she’s not just a f**k-toy for men. That means she probably needs to be held, cuddled, chatted with, etc. The man should check in with her the next day, in person if possible. It’s a good idea to do a non-sexual or low-sexual date as soon as possible, like getting coffee or going for a walk. This allows her to process the intensity of the group sex situation and feel that her normal life is not disturbed by what she may feel are depraved fantasies.

All of these challenges can be overcome and mitigated, but the novice group-sex initiate often doesn’t anticipate them. I don’t think I anticipated them effectively. I also didn’t anticipate how it was possible to combine non-monogamy, game, and sex clubs to unlock abundance and commodification.

Another player says,

I thought you need to be an experienced player to do threesomes and group sex and now I organised MFM is less than four months in a game with a first regular after four months dry spell. Wtf is going on?

I can understand it… and that is part of the reason I like it… and also part of the reason I think the rest of my game has improved… I genuinely don’t give a fuck if any individual girl is into me or not, which makes them more into me, and protects my vibe/state during cold streaks. I know that I’ll end up getting laid one way or another… so if she wants these peak experiences, she needs to enter my world. That’s kind of the attitude, or the frame. Many women reject the gift… and that’s fine… most people’s lives are kind of crappy.

I want to emphasize that I care a lot about the women in my life who I choose and who choose me, and with whom I have a tight bond. Many guys get hurt or angry when a strange women rejects them. That’s the wrong way to think about it, although I understand how desperation and horniness drives guys to think that way. The woman who offers a swift rejection gives you the gift of your time and attention, to better deploy them. Time is always finite, and one modern tragedy is the way people waste it on social media.

The player who organised the MFM also substituted (some) knowledge for experience. That is the beauty and magic of books… they accelerate learning. Reading a book is no perfect substitute for experience, as should be obvious, but the player who’s read it has the intellectual and social framework for implementing group sex and non-monogamy ideas. I had to build up those things from scratch.

I think most guys think threesomes “just happen” after a bunch of drinking and lucky circumstances. You are taking “just happens” and making an industrial process or algorithm out of it. Once you have the fundamental, you know what to do. Discovering the algorithm is hard, but implementing it is (relatively) easy. The free book allows guys to get past the innovation phase and towards the engineering/implementation phase.

One theme you’ve seen running through this blog is about markets, supply, and demand. Magnum tweeted out The Dating Market: Thesis Overview, about dating market dynamics… “A conservative estimate of the percentage of new relationships begun online in 2019 is at least 65%, but likely over 75%.” “The social costs of rejecting a potential mate are now likewise effectively zero, making introductions within existing social groups (friends, family friends, church, etc.) structurally inferior propositions given significant social and reputational risk in the event of an adverse outcome.”

The age dynamic creates significant inter-age cohort competition in the female population and increased overall competition in the male population. This can be conceptualized as the market becoming more efficient, which naturally leads to many market participants anecdotally expressing unhappiness with the status quo as they incorrectly identify an inability to produce low effort excess returns as the circumstances being “unfair.” Basically, the same thing is happening in the dating market as is happening in the Hedge Fund market: things are getting more efficient, very few are pleased about it, and there are lots of strange advice books, blogs, and videos coming out.

But for top guys, women become a commodity… something this author has missed.

We could say, “Sometimes it seems to me that a good unified theory of modern society’s anxieties might be ‘everything is too efficient and it’s exhausting.'” Dating is more efficient in some ways, but less efficient in others. Most chicks can’t accurately assess a guy through his online bullshit. Most guys however can accurately assess about how hot a chick is. So chicks have lots of choices without good ways of navigating those choices. This seems like a detour, but the market for basic guys is flooded.

The market for guys who can make a woman’s sexual fantasies come true remains thin. Most guys can’t do this. I’m teaching guys how not to be like most guys. I don’t know, maybe in 10 years all guys will have threesomes and group sex in their quivers, and it won’t be a significant differentiator. For right now, today, it sure is. I am helping guys get out of the efficient markets and into inefficient markets for making fantasies happen. If every guy is on Tinder he will be judged accurately and harshly as a commodity, but if he is doing daygame, building his value, and offering enticing non-commodity experiences, well then he’s going to offer unusual value.

I also think most guys and chicks are doing online dating poorly, but that is a rant for another time.

New thread, a player had an MFM and then worked through the aftermath of it,

We did a debrief today and discussed the good, the bad and the ugly of the MFM. One lesson learnt for me was having a second crack at [girl] while [player 1] was in the shower. We cleared that up and agreed no more sex unless he or I are back in the room with our main girl.

Personally I’m not worried about sex happening with the main girl while I’m not in the room, provided that I trust the other guy. But I understand where these rules come from. In addition, applying this kind of business logic or practice to sex is also how to build skills rapidly. Most guys, especially younger guys who have not been in the work world, are not familiar with these kinds of practices. There are different formal methodologies for this, like six sigma, but they are pretty similar. Smart businesses know they are key to rapidly building skills and improving product, service, etc. There is no reason they cannot or should not also be applied to seduction… or in this case to group sex. Most of us have ego defenses that inhibit us from getting honest negative feedback, but the good/bad/ugly mechanism or mechanisms like it help us overcome ego defenses and work to maximize skill improvement.

After intense group sex experiences it’s often good to run through these kinds of things to determine what limits and boundaries are there as well as how to make them better next time. Each individual and couple needs to work out their own rules and principles, and I can’t do that for them.

Overall, these players are hitting many of the expected milestones, so it’s positive to see that my experience doesn’t seem to be unique but instead is part of a pattern that is replicable by others.

Andy from “Kill the Inner Loser”

Andy from “Kill the Inner Loser” has an interesting site & story. He got started on Good Looking Loser then moved to do his own thing. Hadn’t heard of him  before Yoylo shot me a link. His posting of “proof” pics is audacious and also seems a little… risky… to me, and I’ve done some dumb shit in pursuit of and inside of p***y.

Loneliness and long term versus libido

It seems like there’s some trade-off between loneliness and libido, in a way that I didn’t feel when I was younger. For quite a few years I wanted to f**k as many hot chicks as possible, as often as I could, and when I did that, it was good. Body, soul, and psyche in perfect alignment. I still want to do that, but there is an undercurrent of loneliness and melancholy to random hookups, even with really hot chicks (some of me going on about the subject, here, here, probably some other spots too). That means I should seek something longer term, right?

Then… there is the libido thing… when I see or worse interact with a hot chick, I still want to f**k her. There are some ways to try and minimize the distinction between them… but I don’t think they’re going away, as a trade off.

I don’t have the typical 2,000 words of elaboration on the theme… it’s just a feeling that I’ve had for a while. Life is about contending with problems, not about ease. When I think about the long term, I want companionship. When I think about the next hour, I want a hot wet naked chick writhing underneath me. I think about some of the gorgeous and wonderful women I had writhing underneath me five or seven years ago, and I can barely remember some of them, in some cases. Their effect on the current life is almost zero.

Woman validates the Red Pill, “The Beauty Exec Fantasizing About the Single Dad Next Door”

Ho boy, “The Beauty Exec Fantasizing About the Single Dad Next Door” conforms so well to Red Pill stereotype and doctrine… it does as much as “My friend ‘Anna’” does not… the writer is 43, divorced, two kids, f**king around, she states she wants a relationship, but, “Why is it that the nicer the apartment, the less I like the guy?” Probably cause really rich guys are often compensating for lack of personality and/or bedroom skills. This guy also doesn’t have good options, “it makes me feel kind of repulsed how into me he is. I should be thrilled. There is nothing not to like about him.” No guy should be that into a 43 year old woman with two kids. This woman knows that his extreme interest is a demonstration of lower value (DLV).

“He’s the kind of guy who really craves family. Again, it makes him pathetic to me.” Because if he craves family with her… he must not be high value… so he turns her off. To her credit, she says, “I adore my kids. They are the two greatest loves of my life.” This is why dating single moms is a bad idea. Their kids will always be first, if they have any character at all as human beings. Go find a woman who hasn’t had kids and give her the greatest loves of her life. This woman is chasing the hottest men… but also, “My ex had an affair, which is why he’s now my ex. Other than cheating on me (over the course of two years), he was a good husband and a great father.” She probably got a guy who has very high SMV… and those guys… they tend to use their SMV. An SMV mismatch problem. This woman was probably delusional about her ex and she is delusional about who she might date now.

I’d like to find someone to have a serious relationship with, but that someone has to be amazing. I won’t compromise. I am content with my life as is, so I would rather be alone than with someone I don’t totally fucking worship and adore.

This woman is 43 and… delusional. She thinks she wants a serious relationship but will only consider the guys who will likely disqualify her. She may be content right now but as her SMV fades, whether she keeps up the yoga or not, “I actually hate yoga but I do it for the yoga bod,” her options are going to get worse. She thinks she wants a serious relationship but all of her behaviors and beliefs point in the opposite direction. This is an incoherent woman.

Overall this story matches recent discussion with Mark J,

Red, how much of this do you think is down to location ? Big coastal cities naturally attract younger, hotter, more hypergamous girls. I’m in NYC and de facto assume any girl I am fucking is seeing or at the very least talking to other guys. But if I was in a smaller Midwest city for example I could imagine that being a lot less common.

There is something to this… I said back, “There’s also some sorting going on… if a girl (or guy) wants to be a big slut, she moves to the big city. It’s about the culture of the place but also the people who move there.” The writer above is a sample of being a big city slut, but not being able to acknowledge it.

Short Dancer, maybe the last girl I was in intense love with (while ago now), moved back to her small town and from what I can tell is now dating a guy who is worse than me in pretty much every respect… except that he seems to be willing to commit to her… and that is important to her… more important than I understood at the time… in some ways I was blinded by my own belief system. We all self-deceive. So Short Dancer is willing to turn down a big city experience to make less money, have less excitement, but also to find a guy who is willing to commit to her… and she is very pretty. But she doesn’t seem to be interested in playing the hypergamy game. She is the sort of girl who is probably not going to show up in some Red Pill horror story. Not yet, anyway. When she’s ready to stray… I hope she gets in touch.

My friend Anna, who seems pretty monogamous

The world is a huge place, and any one of us sees a small small part of it. Seduction and Red Pill are a tiny part of a big world, and the guys in it are disproportionately ones with problems. I am thinking about it because I have a kind-of friend (see Female “friends:” the comprehensive statement), Anna, who is in her late 20s, maybe just turned 30, who is engaged… I’d rate her about a 6. A 6 with good habits, though… looking for a woman with good habits is under rated for long term relationships, something I have been mentioning on Twitter. Anna knows about some of the things I do and am into… and she’s not into any of them. She’s been dating a guy for a while who is probably a male 5 – 6 in the looks department, bit better in the economics department. In Red Pill lore that would mean she’s gagging to upgrade and stealing off to f**k random chads every weekend. It could be true… but I don’t think so… most girls can’t maintain a good-girl facade forever… most people will slip up. Online there are many stories about guys being caught totally flatfooted and unawares by chicks who cheat, run up debts, etc., but in reality I think that is quite rare… the being unaware part, I mean… most of these guys are not paying attention. With Anna, I think she’s going to marry the guy, if he’ll go for it. He might.

These are the stories no one shares online… cause they’re basic, quiet stories, about average people going about their lives. He’ll probably never post about how WOMEN LIE because I don’t think she’s lying. In the Red Pill world, cheating, bad behavior, divorces, etc. get read… we should tell those stories because they are real and important… they are also viral because they’re outrageous. We don’t hear stories about monogamy, fidelity, sticking together through the bad times, etc., probably because guys in pretty good relationships never get interested in red pill and seduction.

I have also wondered if, the hotter the girl, the better the offers of cheating, etc., she typically gets, and the more likely she is to take advantage of all those offers.

The chicks online, the chicks who respond to cold approach… they are not necessarily representative of all chicks. The chicks who want monogamy and meet guys through school, work, church, or friends of friends, then stay with the guy, or break up with him in a reasonable way because they’re not compatible, we don’t hear about. They’re invisible to the online world of anger. Their ex boyfriends probably aren’t telling stories about how evil they are and how all women are bad, cause not all women are evil or bad. Most are people. If I posted this to certain forums online I would probably be ripped apart for being a dupe, and how Anna is spreading her legs for randoms on the sly.

Could be, I don’t know, maybe Anna is getting gang banged by a gaggle of black guys every other weekend. Could be that she sociopathicly presents one way and acts another. Maybe in ten years she’ll divorce the guy out of boredom. Unlike most modern chicks, she’s not into social media… she thinks it’s kind of stupid… she’s had two serious long term boyfriends who I know of and not a lot of hookups, I don’t think. I know her from some mutual hangout spots, and I say that I’m probably not real friends with her because we are too different… we have some common interests, yes, and now some common friends, but it’s pretty rare for guys to be true friends with women, and our lack of real common interests keeps us apart, although we’re friendly and have spent a surprisingly long time together. In some ways we feel a bit like work colleagues who learn from each other but aren’t emotionally close. Most chicks who know things about my life and know things about my ways will open up about their slut adventures, etc., if they have any, and Anna has not done that. Guys who present as sex positive will often get girls to reciprocate, and Anna does not. She is like me in that she wants to let other people live how they want to live, but she is not very interested in the things I have done.

The chicks willing to make sex videos and be with guys like me are not representative of all chicks. Etc.

For a guy, it’s not possible to know for sure whether a given chick is like Anna or like all the chicks divorcing their husbands, cheating on their boyfriends, enjoying the flirtatious attention of other men, etc. etc. But if you watch a given chick’s behavior, you’ll get a sense of who she is over time, and she will do the same with you. A lot of guys see chicks whose behavior is not consistent with what they say, and they ignore the behavior when they shouldn’t. But some chicks are consistent with what they say… they say they want families and monogamy, they go out and find a guy who will give it to them. Both Anna and her boyfriend seem to have a pretty strong sense of their sexual market value (SMV), something that makes them kind of rare in the world of online anger. A lot of people are trying to reach above their SMV value, then complaining that it doesn’t work well… these are also the people who generate outrage stories (I have known plenty of these people, too). The guys complaining about how mean women are… are they going for women who are 5s, low 6s? If they chase the same girls all guys want, the hot young ones, well then how much do they know about ALL women?

Plus… look at it from her guy’s point of view… he is dating a woman who seems to be pretty monogamous and about his SMV level. If he were chasing flakey 8s, he’d be posting online about why do these chicks play games, why is she cheating on me, why does she run hot-cold, etc. Instead, he’s not trying to chase the hottest girls… and that means he’s not posting angrily about how mean chicks are, etc., because he’s got someone he seems to like/love and isn’t in the market for angry-man ranting.

Don’t have a strong point in this bit apart from the idea that outrage sells and spreads, while whatever is the opposite of outrage doesn’t. Guys who are in satisfying relationships with women aren’t spending a lot of time in the Red Pill. Even among Red Pill guys, the most outrageous female behavior is the most interesting. I have spent a lot of time in the past ten years in short relationships 6 – 20 month relationships, and some of those have been very satisfying and have generated pretty few outrageous stories, even with non-monogamy mixed in. If we go to a sex club once a month… and the girl is fundamentally in my frame and following my lead… and I am making sure to stay at her pace and maintain her comfort level… there is not necessarily a lot of drama involved, or real good stories. It’s during the periods with lots of tumult, with badly behaved chicks, with chicks who are out of sync with me, etc., that the good stories happen. There are people whose actions, desires, and words all match up… we’re not hearing about them online. They’ve invisible to the anger machines.

Many people’s lives are punctuated by periods of tumult but also have long periods of relative peace. No one posts online, “I’ve been seeing this chick for 14 months and it’s going pretty well.” No one posts, “We realized that we weren’t right for each other anymore and had a respectful breakup.” Stories about how this one chick did a branch swing by f**king her coworker and finding their sexting… those stories are powerful. They are real too.

I still think it is a mistake for guys to get married… I think it is a mistake for Anna’s man to marry her because I think he makes more $$$$ than her. Marriage is an expensive, risky move. But… she is also the kind of person who is probably NOT going to have a family with a guy she’s not married to, so that element is present. She behaves less hypergamously than most women seem to, and she seems to have chosen a guy with a set of features, good and bad, that fit with herself.

All chicks have the potential to branch swing, behave hypergamously, etc., and it’s good to know this cause it will happen to you if you date enough chicks… but not all do it. The ones who do, make for better stories and bitterer guys than the ones who don’t. We all build echo chambers for ourselves, we all struggle, etc. I think there is too much anger online. I get why the anger is there. If some woman blows up a man’s life in an unexpected way, he’s going to be angry and extrapolate. If some guy doesn’t have the SMV to get the women he wants, he’s going to get angry instead of getting better, cause anger is easier. A lot of guys have been told lies about what women want, and when they see past the lie they’re going to get angry, yes. I get it, it makes sense. But anger blinds… don’t be so blind that you mistake your world for the world.

It’s good to pay attention to the possibility of a high duplicity chick, of borderline personality disorder (BPD) chicks, etc. But… they are probably not as common in normal life as they are in the stories online. Don’t be blind. Do some spot checks here and there. Confront the things that don’t seem right. But don’t be paranoid either. If you are paranoid and convinced all chicks are just waiting to cheat, upgrade, etc., you will not have a very happy, or the ability to bond with the better chicks (if you want to do that… some guys want to be players… that’s cool… the game is about helping guys get the tools to get what we want, not about telling guys how to live every aspect of our lives).

I have been some dark places… I get the anger… I do… but I want to acknowledge the dark without having it consume me.