Rollo Tomassi Rational Male post

More reader questions… a batch ask about Rollo and The Rational Male… I think Rollo is a considerable improvement on the default state of the average guy. An average guy will see his life and knowledge improved if he reads The Rational Male book. Like in the one about “levels” of game/development, my view depends on where the guy is and what he needs… Rollo is above the median, so that’s good for a basic guy.

But.. you knew a “but” was coming… most of The Rational Male is more culture war than I’m interested in. I’m glad someone wants to prosecute culture war on the behalf of embattled men… though I personally want to do other things… I don’t spend time with angry feminists and I’m a bit more interested in guys talking about the real mechanics of real-world dating (and sex of course). About the practice and about specifics of how to make it work. That is what I encourage guys to blog about. I want to live more immediately. Yes, feminism is bad… yes, feminism has infiltrated some workplaces and many HR departments… in my everyday life it is never as bad as it’s depicted on the Internet, and I want to write about what I see in my life.

So Rollo is most into culture and culture war and hypergamy. I am most interested in game and f**king. Rollo wants to raise the level of the average guy, I think… I want to talk to guys who have game or want to develop game, the guys who want to get to the top. If you’re interested in getting laid a lot and understanding individual female psychology, I’m really talking to you. If you’re aiming to talk about large scale social forces… I am less into that. Obviously there’s some overlap between the two groups but the focus is different.

It’s pretty rare for me to link to Rollo because his material is fine but it’s rarely on the topics most vital to me. There’s a sidebar link to him because, like I said, I think his book is useful for some guys, and it covers material I don’t. I don’t agree with everything in it but that’s fine too… it’s better than the male average and that’s good enough for me. If you know an average guy, it is good to slip him a copy of The Rational Male book, particularly if he’s going through a tough breakup or divorce and is ready to understand reality. I can see giving the right guy the book.

Nash’s statement on Rollo… he’s more anti-Rollo than I am. If you want the anti-Rollo statement, read it.

I don’t think Rollo’s work describes “top guy” worlds or will help guys get to the top, though they will help average guys who are totally asleep or misled. For guys with game fundamentals, who want to reach the next levels, he’s not optimal. So is he “good” or “bad?” Depends on the guy and his needs. It’s nice that someone is attacking the bad feminist culture… I just don’t want to be that guy myself. It’s also not good to get stuck in that world… it’s better to get into a world where a guy is getting laid, building skills, etc.

A lot of the Internet consists of people announcing that something is 100% s**t, and something else is 100% genius… I don’t really do that binary thinking… there can be things with some positive aspects, some with neutral aspects, and some with negative aspects… including me… I wouldn’t expect anyone to agree with 100% of what I say… if someone did, that would be odd.

I have some theory and philosophy posts… but most of what I write germinates from some experience or other. Something happens, I talk to someone, I do something, then I write about it. That is, I believe, where the best material originates.

Author: The Red Quest

How can we live and be in society?

14 thoughts on “Rollo Tomassi Rational Male post”

  1. Rollo have been a double edge sword for me in a lot of ways.
    It was the book that pushed me from the bottom to start getting other materials, specially about game. He has some suggestions for someone new into the sphere and help you avoid getting bad advice.
    Another good thing is it makes you prepared. Feminist rhetoric is smart (on the surface) because it gets into the minds of a lot of people and Rollo have really good counter points so you don’t get into their mental traps . Top guys have choices but most men have to deal with average chicks pushing feminist talk on dates. Smart guys will see it for what it is, disengage and find a way out (I usually laugh it off or change subject).

    The bad part is it can make guys paranoid and/or engage in fruitless discussion. I think a lot of his assessment of the world is overblown because he isn’t out in the field, he just pick articles. Some guys might try to go out and try to “redpill” other guys and girls, wasting time on discussion and making enemies. Having been following him for years and getting his content always live, a lot of the times I feel the need to switch him off because it makes me anxious about the world outside, which ruins my mood and makes me afraid of approaching girls (or people in general). I also don’t wanna be the guy battling feminist – all I want is to safely to go out, pickup girls and have a good time.

    Liked by 2 people

  2. I agree, Rollo is great at describing the dynamics of the sexual marketplace in our society, his first book especially helped me understand that.

    But he doesn’t offer any actionable solutions. Thankfully many others have in this space including you RQ.

    I think men are best served by taking action, to make the best of reality and and how things are.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Thanks for the link to that post, TRQ. That post is a mess… but there are a lot of good parts to it. I am still working on what is actually going on for Rollo and his “Harsh Truthers.”

    “If I align with anybody it would be MGTOW, but I don’t agree with MGTOW solutions.”
    — Rollo, January 2020

    That ^ is a direct quote from this year from the “gaudfather” himself. And I think that helps put Rollo/TRP in perspective. MGTOW (=men going their own way) is about guys literally/explicitly moving away from women. Here we have Rollo saying that is what he “aligns” with. All of this is obvious to me. I have been calling him the King of the MGTOWs for years.

    This is why we shouldn’t confuse Rollo/TRP with Game. Game has been around for ever. It’s about getting closer to women (for sex or whatever you’re into). Rollo/MGTOW/Harsh Truthers are about defense, a hostility to women, and moving away from women.

    And you can see it the guys that are particularly vocal about TRP. Their vibe, the way they talk… it’s all anti-game. The whole scene is a boner-killer.

    Most guys are looking to bring women INTO THEIR LIVES. That is their biggest pain point. For new guys getting into GAME, I argue TRP is particularly strong anti-game. Rollo is literally telling you he will help you go the other way.

    > I’m a bit more interested in guys talking about the real mechanics of real-world dating (and sex of course).
    — TRQ

    There are two spectrum here: Something close to MGTOW (and an endless critique/defense against women) and GAME (and endless enthusiasm for and enticement of women). TRQ can see the difference.

    I will push the point here to say that Rollo is NOT some midpoint between “zero game” and “good game.” Rollo/TRP is anti-game. Rollo/TRP are on a completely separate axis. Exposure to their “negative viewpoint” (which they adamantly celebrate as “harsh truth” – incredibly proud of their non-boners) will draw you more toward them (fear-based rel with women) versus the seducer class (sex-/joy- based view of women).

    Don’t believe me? Look at the stories those groups of men tell about women. Game guys… have great stories of chance encounters, approaching, dates, hooking up, and great sex. TRP… endless stories of “thots,” divorce, etc. Choose wisely.

    I argue you can learn boundaries, the best of female psych, etc from men that pre-date redpill (99.9% of Game clearly predates the “trendiness” of TRP). I commonly point to Franco as a perfect example. Other men can give you practical, strong, lessons about women without the MGTOW culture war hysteria that can only get in the way of bringing women into your life.

    Go Game.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. While I don’t agree much with this assessment that Rollo is anti-game, it does seem that a lot of times that he paints a pretty ugly picture of women.
      What guys do you recommend reading for a more optimistic perspective on Game, woman and relationships?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. > he paints a pretty ugly picture of women

        Exactly. So how does seeing women that way inspire a man to shine in game? How can a man enthusiastically “thrust” into the world of women if he constantly meditates on how “ugly” they are? If a man is already a little nervous about running Game, how does making the fruits of that labor “ugly” help him?

        You have better choices of who to study.

        I blocked this guy Flatlander on Twitter recently. He thinks the worst of women. But still spends a lot of time in/around game – although, clearly from that “redpill” POV. His attitude sucks, he is the opposite of fun, seductive, enticing. I really wonder why guys like him don’t go full MGTOW… and I think he does not because he is genuinely conflicted. He does think the worst of women… but he still wants/needs/craves intimacy and/or sex (those are healthy desires in a man). It’s his doublebind. So he flops around in that space.

        If he has women in his life, they will be women that “match” to that conflicted POV… a lot of dysfunction there. Why would a “healthy,” high-value girl bond in any way with a man that doesn’t like women… she wouldn’t. So how does studying men that don’t like women help you in game?? I can see how it helps you in MGTOW/defense, but how does it help you bring women into your life?

        The stuff I wrote about ATTACHMENT THEORY helped me get it. Flatlander is anxious-avoidant. He will attract anxious-insecure as his match. When that kind of girl is “good” for him, she’ll chase his nasty, “not really into it” vibe. He is playing “power” (instead of seduction), so he’ll love that. When she’s “bad” for him, her insecurity will validate all his shit views of women – as she acts out, chases other men to make her feel secure, etc. This is the very bottom end of the SMP.

        Pat Stedman is very interesting on this topic, bTW. He really understands this dynamic.

        And I think guys like Flatlander are perfect Rollo Zombies. I think he is typical, not an outlier for that scene. Flat’s attitude makes him “cool” in that scene. I try to stay away from those guys.

        None of this is game. It’s dudes being critical tough guys INSTEAD OF doing game. They are talking about it (bitterly), not doing it.

        That attitude is not attractive to most women. Unless you bond well to dysfunctional, insecure girls… you won’t be successful with “Harsh Truth” Game. I’m not advocating “endless valentines day.” I like romance, but I also have very tight boundaries and I can control a frame (and girls respond to that). You have choices here.

        > What guys do you recommend reading for a more optimistic perspective on Game, woman and relationships?

        Check this guy’s stuff out.

        “This book is for men that love women and want to improve their relationships with them and achieve maximum well-being for both parties.”
        — From Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man

        These guys really, really get it. They understand proper Game. They have killer insights into some of the pitfalls of women, but they “LOVE” women, and it shows.

        Black Philip (aka Patrice Oneil) is an edgy, wild guy… but he loves his girl. And it shows.

        Unlike Flatlander… these are SECURE guys that can form secure/mature attachments. They are plenty tough enough, this is not “romantic comedy game,” but they also love women. And their Game comes from a place of joy and excitement and entertainment. They “look up” where Rollo’s crowd consistently “looks down.”

        You have better choices. And YOU ARE WHAT YOU STUDY so choose wisely.


    2. Rollo is not anti-game at all. His book if anything describes the underlying behaviors of game. Its obvious though that he is not in the field, as he has been married for a long time.

      The problem with TRP is its going way too off on the deep end. A ton of snake oil salesmen regurgitating information through thousand dollar seminars. Politics is getting co-opted into the theories.


    3. >>There are two spectrum here: Something close to MGTOW (and an endless critique/defense against women) and GAME (and endless enthusiasm for and enticement of women)

      I’d never thought of it quite in that way, but the distinction is good.


  4. “That is why I think Seduction is so important… it leads us into a beautiful world.”
    — Hans Comyn

    A man that thinks like ^ this… is on his way to being very, very good with women.


  5. I am listening to Zan right now. I don’t love the guy in all ways, but he is perhaps the polar opposite of Rollo and “defense.” In fact, NOTICE how this quote ends with “you move toward things.”

    “You have to believe in that path. When you’re attuned to it… you’re thinking of these things, your mind is aligned, your mind is prep’d. Chance favors the prepared mind. And it’s true. People say, ‘How did you get to here?’ Well, my mind is prepared to see the opportunities, to take them. They say, “I can’t do it…” – it’s because your mind isn’t attuned. If you are, you hear that, and you move toward things and people and experiences. It’s the way it is. It’s inevitable.”
    — Zan

    “Just believe it” is too fluffy for me. But he is saying more than that. He says, you have to attuned. He says you have to be tuned in… and when you are, you’ll see “open doors,” you’ll step in, you’ll have good experiences.

    I know from my own experience this is exactly right. The better I get, the more “open doors” I see (and the more I can create). But my whole game is based on SEEING OPEN DOORS (not being in an endless defense crouch).

    It’s about “being prepared.” And we could say that for both Seducers and Redpill Zombies. They are both attuned, actually… but to completely different things. This is a great example of how Rollo is NOT “1/2 way to good game.” He is very far along to “no game at all.” MGTOW… no game at all. He is telling you what he is.

    If you want to BRING WOMEN INTO YOUR LIFE, you have to be prepared to do so. And Redpill (which is a trendy new name for “defensive” layer that sits on top of older, better ideas) prepares you for “AWALT” and “dude, hypergamy bro… that thot can’t be trusted.” Those guys drill on that stuff incessantly. So they are prepared… prepared to be “thot-busters” and MGTOWs and endlessly critical tough guys. It their kind of “prepared” doesn’t end in orgasms for everybody… is anyone surprised by that?

    SwingCat talks about “nice guy chump sees obstacle and take charge male sees opportunities.” That is a hot line. And Le’Swing is correct. That is a very powerful way to see things. Again, there are better guys to study than Rollo and his school of quitters.

    And if Swingcat is right… which “school of thought” gets you ready to “see opportunities for success with women?” Zan knows which school. I know which school. TRQ knows which school.

    What will you choose?

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Zan?

      I like the open doors idea.

      I have also worried, not in public possibly, that too much red pill closes guys off from better opportunities… many women don’t behave in ways “red pill” would predict. That is the selection bias issue.

      Overall, it is good to be generous, but without being taken advantage of. People respond to deepening levels of reciprocity. I think I want an open door into my life/thought… for the right chick(s)… and I do think game helps open doors and also protect value, when it needs to be protected.


  6. The “culture warrior” – that’s the current Rollo. The early Rollo was much more focussed on game and the practical application of “the red pill”. His first two books, Rationale Male I & II, were extremely enlightening and eye-opening for me. I consider them a must-read for every guy who comes from a blue pill-/ beta-mindset.
    But that’s it. You don’t need to read RM III, or read his current blog or follow him on Twitter. And you certainly don’t need to follow all that bitching and infighting about 21 convention, who is the president of the manosphere and the general manosphere-drama and all that whining about women.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. > The “culture warrior” – that’s the current Rollo. The early Rollo was much more focussed on game and the practical application of “the red pill”. His first two books, Rationale Male I & II, were extremely enlightening and eye-opening for me.

      Tyler… you almost tempt me to take another look. And I have taken so many looks at the guy.

      I have been “running side/side” with Rollo for some time. And for me (and a lot of guys), there is some nauseous about him. That is a “feeling” kind of comment, but he literally has always made me feel “sick.” And I have heard this from lots of people.

      I was in a culture warrior phase when I first found him (2014/2015?). And I was still “battling feminism.” And I wanted solid references to point to… he was never it. There was always someone around me that could say it better… and in a CLEANER (=less baggage/hostility) way.

      I often ask guys to imagine :”Would Rollo make a good wingman?” And I think it is crystal clear he would not.

      If you want to stand around and think you’re “analyzing women” (mostly negatively/defensively), and NOT ACTUALLY APPROACH ANY GIRLS AT ALL… Rollo might be a great wing. But to actually get up next to girls, smile, “dance” with them in that on-the-fly, flirty way that makes things like daygame so much fun… no way he could do that well. And his vibe would make it very hard to be inspired to that while his “truth” hung in the air like a humid MGTOW fog.

      This is why I REJECT that Rollo has anything to do with Game. I think he uses concepts from Game/Evo-bio to tell low-status men (many of them DIVORCED) about their own lives. I think that IS his product. Low status men that want “excuses” and divorced men that want a “motherly hug of acceptance” – that is the type that eat up Rollo. Both are MGTOW types… both suck with Game. It’s easy to see that in the bulk of his following.

      Rollo knows the concepts, but he isn’t the guy for Game. Almost anyone would be better. He is on the wrong foot from the very beginning. He’ll teach you a hostile, suspicious, cynical defense… that’s about it.


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