Women who prioritize families and long-term relationships, and who have reasonable expectations of the men they date, get married and have families and do their best to stay married. Those women are out there, but they’re not much discussed among the red pill / seduction / masculinity communities because they’re mostly invisible to us… Red Pill Dad and I have a conversation in his comments section about these issues, and I’m reminded of “Katie,” a woman I knew years ago, when I was in my early to mid 20s (she was, and still likely is, a year or two older than me). Probably a low 8 then… slender with no rack, so maybe she was a high 7 with a pretty face and pretty blonde hair, and during our friendship / interactions / flirtationship, she said she hadn’t had sex until she was in college and had had sex with 3 – 4 men by the time I met her, all in a relationship context. She was in a long-distance relationship, and I kept angling to get her into position to make my move, and she kept successfully angling me away, while keeping me in her friend orbit (we had some mutual things in common that kept us around each other). Good sexual tension between us. Eventually I did my move and she said no, hard, firm, and kind, although her long-distance relationship died of natural causes sometime after that. Tried again and she said no. Why? One, she was a year or two older than me (she didn’t cite that though it makes sense), but, most importantly, she knew I wanted to be a player, not her boyfriend.
A part of her liked me and the sexual tension, but her conscious forebrain knew what I was about and that I wasn’t going to wife her up. Katie came from a rich family and I think had excessive income expectations. We had good physical chemistry and made each other laugh… she was bright, too, and had a bubbly personality, and when a guy is potentially offered quality champagne it is hard to turn it down for whoever’s next, since the next girl might be watery beer. I bet she was/is good in bed. She had strong sexual presence yet I don’t think she was going to unleash her sexuality outside of a relationship. I telegraphed “player” and also had uncertain earning potential and she knew that, and chemistry was not going to get in the way of her larger goals.
Katie married the next guy she dated, or the one after him. She’s not on social media very much and never has been… to the extent she is, she’s depicted with her husband and family. No or little politics, no or little posturing. At that distant time when I knew her, I wasn’t properly strict on the “no friend zone” thing, so we kept in touch longer than we should have… I say “longer than we should have” because our professional life goals diverged, and our personal life goals were never aligned (I wanted to f**k a lot of girls and she wanted a secure family, that being the opposite of her family growing up). We had personalities that meshed in some ways but we didn’t have enough in common to sustain our connection, and I wanted to spend time f**king girls, not hanging out with a pretty girl I wasn’t going to f**k. She tried to hook me up with her unattractive friends… as usual, her attractive friends had boyfriends already. One of them was insultingly overweight, so maybe my estimation of her estimation of me is lower than I have been portraying.
Today, she’s been married quite a while and has three kids… and looks amazingly good for having had three kids, although she has the slender body type that handles aging really well, even if she was never a high 8 or 9. Could have had a little work done on her face. A lot of stunningly curvy women droop early, while some of the slender women who are less hot as 22 year olds grow into themselves. I’ve slept with women who are less attractive than she is, after she’s had three kids (you probably have too).
We never know what will happen, Katie’s story goes on, maybe Katie will have a change of heart and dump her husband to go do the f**king around she didn’t do early. Maybe her husband will turn her in for a younger model… life’s unpredictable and I don’t know her anymore and haven’t truly known her for a long time. It’s possible she’ll experience the deep satisfactions of seeing her family grow. It’s further possible she doesn’t have the much-discussed hypergamous disposition. If a player stopped her on the street or flirted with her in a bar, she’d probably laugh at him, or indulge him for a few minutes then say, “No thank you.” Players wouldn’t get far enough with her to make her memorable.
Stories about chicks who f**k a bunch of dudes really stand out in the mind, like stories about terrorism. Terrorism works at generating publicity because of the way the human mind works, even though you’re statistically more likely to die from excess sugar consumption, opioids, or cars. Stories about women cheating with 10 random dudes are more interesting than stories about women who thought about it but didn’t. The guys whose marriages go through a rough patch and then recover have much less need of red pill and seduction than those guys whose marriages dissolve. The guys who grow up with a good family and robust social skills have much less need than guys who don’t. Etc. “Selection bias” is real. I bet Katie’s husband doesn’t spend a lot of time online and doesn’t spend it in these Internet precincts. Why would he?
In red pill/seduction/masculinity communities, you’re disproportionately surrounded by guys who picked the wrong woman, probably without realizing what they were doing, and without the context to understand that you can’t make a hoe a housewife. You’re surrounded by guys who were cheated on, divorced, etc. Guys who grew up with single mothers, or with fathers who were weak. Guys with deficient social skills. That’s reflected in the worldview being generated by these guys. The male equivalent of the women whose sexual market value (SMV) mismatch problems have made them bitter towards men.
If your father ever taught you much about women, perhaps he told you a similar story…
More likely, however, he didn’t. Mine didn’t.
And if I had to guess, there are a lot of guys out there like me who had perfectly good fathers (in every other respect) who never really taught us about women in the way they taught us about the sea, hunting, fishing, cars, sports, etc.
The guys who are in (basically) happy marriages don’t have much to say because they’re not out hitting the streets chasing strange puss, and they’re not looking for deeper answers after seeing half their incomes diverted to their former spouses, and their former spouses’s new boyfriend. The guys who are true players probably have good social skills and gym routines and would find much of the anger and hostility online to be strange and off putting (as I suspect a lot of the red pill / seduction guys are in real life).
Katie realized correctly that I wanted to be a player, not her husband, and she reacted appropriately. I have met women who realize I want to be player but give in to their desires, and then find themselves frustrated when I am not interested in helping them pursue their reproductive life plans. Smart women mostly don’t make these mistakes, or, if they do, they have their month of fun and then jettison the fun sex guy in order to pursue the monogamy provider guy.
Most essentially, women who want monogamy find it. They don’t live in New York City, or in the big expensive party cities. They play no games, or fewer games than women who are addicted to interpersonal drama. If those women recognize a guy who does the things they want… a provider, a good earner, loyal, willing to commit… they will latch onto him and work to keep him. As they should. They will suss out who he is. Does he want to have a family sooner, or later? Does he have a good relationship with his own parents and family? Etc. They talk about their own desires to get married and have a family, since those desires can scare off players. They will bring other skills to the relationship than sex.
For a contrast, look instead at the 30-something female journalists, usually fat, who write about how there are no good men out there. Those women prioritized their careers over their families and chose to f**k fun-loving bad boys who didn’t want to commit. Then, as their SMV declines with age, they want to get out of the market, only to find out that their SMV is declining, and that they’ve practiced few of the skills that make long-term relationships work. They have lived lives that are largely the opposite of Katie’s, and they lack the self-awareness to understand what they’ve done or take responsibility for it. They have a lot to write about because they have to write something new every day or every week, and their failure to recognize how male-female sexuality works means that they can’t find the obvious principles underlying their decisions.
Let’s look at one description of modern women, “many, if not most women have become self-publishing soft core pornographers, posing with their asses in the air or wearing scantily clad bikinis or semi nude in their bedrooms making duck lips–those bored ass eyes, sexy and yet soulless.” I doubt this has ever described Katie or women like her. Plus…
women have a burden too–unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for those of us who are players), it’s become extremely reductive in modern society: be attractive (enough) and give sex. That’s basically it, and as many players have noted, this seems to be the only thing most women today are capable of providing. Maybe why I get so excited when I come home after a girl spends the night to find my bed made or my apartment tidied up.
I think Katie brought a lot more to her relationship than f**king, and I bet she selected a man who brought a lot more to the relationship than just money, or just decent sex. In this way she is like Anna, another girl who fits the “not very sexually adventurous” mold, although Katie is prettier than Anna and better than Anna overall. I’ve met plenty of women who bring little to the relationship apart from sex and I mentally tag them accordingly. They are the women who want to know why guys just want easy sex from them… and they are the kind of women who don’t want an honest answer to that question. A guy who has problems with the entire opposite sex usually has true problems within himself, and the same’s true of women. As guys interested in seduction we learn to improve ourselves. A lot of women don’t have those same self-improvement voices in their ears.
The Red Quest 
I’d add confirmation bias to the other big one affecting people in TRP. Both in terms of their experiences and how they use they interpret evolutionary biology starting with a thesis and only then going back to look for data that supports their view rather than starting from data and working up to a model of behavior. I agree with pretty much everything you’re saying here. All I’d add is that it feels like there is a shift happening in women like Katie. I like to think of cultural forces acting on people as similar to those from physics, gravity etc. Many of these you’ve written about so I’m not bringing anything new to the discussion you’re not already aware of. What I’m curious about is this statement “Most essentially, women who want monogamy find it.” I’m not sure this is true. I think the difference between what would make most happy, what their subconscious wants, and their conscious desires often have little to no overlap. Also they might start off being sure they want monogamy, and wake up one day with new forces acting on them which radically shifts what they want, or they’re just bored. Insert soliloquy on the necessity of game even more in the context of a monogamous cohabiting relationship.
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>>I think the difference between what would make most happy, what their subconscious wants, and their conscious desires often have little to no overlap
Depends on the woman… I’d say women who really want monogamy make sure their forebrain rules, and they don’t get into positions where they’re likely to f**k random guys. Like, I tried to get Katie to f**k at least twice directly, and more often indirectly. She made sure that wasn’t going to happen. Girls like her have a minimal # of indiscretions. Who knows, maybe she has one or two she didn’t tell me about.
These women… aren’t spending time alone at bars. They’re not secretly messaging ex boyfriends. They’re the “dark matter” of the pickup / redpill community.
Maybe she has some unconscious desires she doesn’t want to share. Could be. But if she never acts on them… who cares?
The other thing is… I don’t think we can tell that much about chicks by how they self-present. Some chicks show a lot of skin but don’t f**k around much. Some chicks seem demure but are the opposite. There’s some correlation between self-presentation and action but how strong is it? I don’t know and I don’t think anyone does.
I’m not a big fan of the “all women are ______” statements or the “female nature is _____” statements. Except for words like flexible/adaptable/changeable. I do think wealth, birth control, and STI cures mean we fuck around a lot more than we would in their absence. https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2018/08/31/what-do-we-spend-our-excess-money-on-sex/. The dissolution of the family means there is a lot of young quim around without any supervision or restriction. Game works. But there are women who don’t want to be in the game and have a goal and will turn down players. The “beta” males demonized by red pill guys who have been burned by their own past weaknesses and investment mistakes do win plenty of rolls and often have kids with okay women. It’s all out there.
Personally I have mostly wanted hot sex with lots of chicks and have mostly calibrated my life accordingly. That means a lot of women who want families… have turned away from me, for good reasons.
>> Also they might start off being sure they want monogamy, and wake up one day with new forces acting on them which radically shifts what they want, or they’re just bored. Insert soliloquy on the necessity of game even more in the context of a monogamous cohabiting relationship.
To be sure women change. Men do too. Lots of married guys encourage their wives to get into sex clubs, despite the risk, after 10 years of marriage, two kids, and the tedium of f**king the same woman for ten years. They know that they’re going to 1. divorce or 2. cheat, and probably get caught. With that reality… maybe the sex club is worth the risk… without it, the relationship isn’t going to last anyway… so the gamble isn’t much of a game.
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All excellent points.
“Except for words like flexible/adaptable/changeable” -> This I agree with more than anything you’ve said. Have you read the book “Untrue”? I found it pretty eye opening. A lot of things I’ve read/experiences have convinced me that this is the only true thing that can be said.
While I agree it’s good to stay away from statements like “all women are ______” statements or the “female nature is _____”, there is value in observing patterns that exist in certain contexts and forces which act on people to produce behavior.
My sister is a Katie. Has slept with two men in her life, her High School boyfriend and her current husband. In our conversations she’s been pretty clear that she feels she is or has missed out on zero. She’s unbelievably happy with her kids and husband to an extent that mystifies me. These women clearly exist, and are a large and unrepresented sample in TRP writings.
What I was remarking on was a pattern I’ve seen of women who say they want one thing, but don’t seem to be able to achieve that thing (monogamy, marriage, family etc). My take is that in many cases their conscious brain tells them they want monogamy, it’s the thing I personally believe would make them the happiest, and yet there’s some sort of disconnect in terms of subconscious desires which are at odds with doing what it takes to produce that outcome. Along the same lines, similar to you, I’ve had many women I was dating bail because they correctly assessed that I was never going to change and become monogamous and give them what I wanted and they weren’t stupid enough to delude themselves into believing they could change me. Those woman are now married with children or in happy healthy monogamous relationships. So I’m not saying all women, but common enough to remark on. Secondly the phenomenon of the women who do achieve monogamy but find it doesn’t satisfy on a long timeline.
And agreed, men change to. But I’m not as interested in that with the exception of being able to understand myself.
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Yup https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2018/11/05/untrue-on-female-lust-and-infidelity-for-players/
>>In our conversations she’s been pretty clear that she feels she is or has missed out on zero. She’s unbelievably happy with her kids and husband to an extent that mystifies me. These women clearly exist, and are a large and unrepresented sample in TRP writings.
I don’t know a huge number of these women but I have met other versions of them. We don’t have a lot in common for obvious reasons.
They are also quieter cause they don’t have that much to say. The people tortured by indecision, or who regret what they do… they have a lot to say/write.
You may have noticed a lot of writing on this blog… might not be a coincidence…
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I think it’s correct to argue that there are a lot of Karens out there who tend to be pretty conservative sexually and will probably mostly have steady boyfriends until at some point they end up married to one of them. And yes, these girls are invisible to guys in game. I can actually think of a fair number of girls I went to high school and college with who are like this.
What I will say is that for these people, both the Karens and the guys who marry them is that things are mostly stable and go well/right. What I mean is that the guy is generally going to have a good paying job–probably makes more than the chick–and whether she stays at home or works too, financially everything is solidly middle class or above. If you have a couple kids, mostly get along with your wife, have an affordable mortgage, and get to go on the occasional vacay, life is pretty good, and even if either one of you would like to fuck other people, mostly likely you don’t want to risk that–and the options for people to cheat in those situations are pretty spare anyway.
I mean, if we’re just talking about swaths of people who are invisible to the community, it includes A LOT of people in the group above and everyone else who’s overweight or obese. Let’s be honest: there are a lot of happily married couples out there who are both unfuckable. Huge numbers actually. It’s pretty rare from what I’ve seen to see a couple in their late 30’s or 40’s who are both in really good shape.
So yeah, those people are invisible.
The argument I’d make (and did yesterday https://redpilldad.blog/2020/03/23/selection-bias-and-generational-differences/) is that there’s a big difference between women raised pre smart phone vs. post smart phone. Do Karens still exist? Yes absolutely. But I think they are fewer and farther between than they used to be because of social forces I talk more about in the post. One reason specifically–and this gets to XBTUSD’s comment:
> What I’m curious about is this statement “Most essentially, women who want monogamy find it.” I’m not sure this is true. I think the difference between what would make most happy, what their subconscious wants, and their conscious desires often have little to no overlap. Also they might start off being sure they want monogamy, and wake up one day with new forces acting on them which radically shifts what they want, or they’re just bored.
He too referenced the sociocultural changes, but what I’d say is that social media, smart phones, and mainstream media have had a highly distorting effect on what women expect in a relationship vs. what they are bringing to the table. I don’t just mean the ones who are clearly delusional–I mean women who ARE simply waiting for a man to come along who doesn’t exist for them: single moms too, because thare probably the worst examples of this, but many other womeney can get so much attention on social media and match with +2 Chads on Tinder, are simply too picky to settle down with a guy who’s going to pick them. And what’s crazy is that most of them don’t seem to learn that they’re being delusional. Every chick in NYC complains she gets pumped, dumped, and ghosted, only to continue to match with the same guys who PD&G.
I also want to tackle the notion of being a “top guy” at some point, or being top 1% as a lot of guys say on Twitter: “oh if you’re top 1%, chicks will beg. You don’t even have to run game.” This is bullshit. Not because top guys don’t exist, or that a guy couldn’t hypothetically be top 1%, but because for the most part, women either can’t or don’t care to suss that out. I hate to always use him as an example, but take Magnum: very good looking, makes very good income. Lives in amazing cities, travels, has his shit together. As close to that top guy as I can think of. Still gets flaked on and ghosted. Because women make mistakes in game. In a lot of cases they can’t tell the difference between a top guy and a regular guy, especially if the regular guy has strong game and the top guy is more passive.
I mean, for men, beyond looks, what makes you a top guy: money and a cool social life. Truth is, I’ve banged a lot of girls who had no idea how much money I made and weren’t around long enough to figure out if I had a social life. So it’s not necessarily about that either.
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I think we agree on everything you’re saying, and I enjoyed that post you referenced. There seems to be something else I’m noticing, and maybe it’s the pre-post smartphone thing, but I feel like there’s something else happening. Many women I know who I would say are attractive, not destroyed by social medias narcissistic effect (this is in NYC) don’t seem to be able to date effectively. There’s a confluence of forces acting on them, online dating, #feminism, etc, and the red quest is the first person I’ve read who seems to be able to articulate a lot of these things that I’ve been seeing. It’s like trying to describe the US economy, too complex to articulate anything intelligent about as a system, but you can start to tease apart the various forces acting on it. I’ve enjoyed the few posts of yours I’ve read BTW, thank you for writing!
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Apparently comment threads only go so deep on this blog?
“They are also quieter cause they don’t have that much to say. The people tortured by indecision, or who regret what they do… they have a lot to say/write.
You may have noticed a lot of writing on this blog… might not be a coincidence…”
Lesson in there! While I truly enjoy the self deprecation in this comment, I’m not sure it’s fair. One thing I really enjoy about your writing is a desire to understand the world, and through that understanding exert power over it. You’re not a victim, you have agency in the same way we create computers by understanding particle physics. One of the downsides of understanding the world is indecision. And yet the world has many layers, things at the quantum level work in a way not describable with standard physics, who would have thought? Our behaviors surprise even ourselves, and even more female behavior. If we can understand ourselves, and them, we can predict what will make us happy long into the future. Many people that come to TRP think they have understood the world around them, only to realize they were a Turkey (https://nassimtaleb.org/2013/09/turkey-problem/) on day 1001. Some people are Turkeys but Thanksgiving never comes, which is just statistical luck, good for those lucky few. The world is changing faster than ever, meaning there will be more Turkeys, and Thanksgiving will come sooner for more of them. But you know this.
I’d bet that you have a good shot at predicting what will make you happy in the future, but it’s all still a game of probability, which is what makes it worth playing. You understand the probabilities and lay smart bets which can still lose. Your writing clearly helps you gain a deeper understanding of the world.
I hope my sister is not a Turkey, but in college her boyfriend broke up with her completely out of the blue and for no real “reason.” He just got bored. She was devastated. Luckily he changed his mind, and they have been happy together ever since. Let’s hope happily ever after.
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I also try to acknowledge my own strengths and weaknesses, and my own limitations… nothing in life is infinite, including time/money/energy. A lot of guys writing about the game seem like they have no idea what’s going on… but without seeing a guy, seeing the girls he’s with, etc., it’s hard to judge.
I think of “happiness” as a byproduct of other things… so I try to focus on those other things…
For most guys, I think it’s not possible to be satisfied without a sex life that is somewhere in an acceptable “range” for that guy. The specifics of the “range” are going to vary with the guy. On average, men want to have sex with a larger number of women (lifetime) than women do with men. The reason for this comes from evolutionary biology. So there is always going to be a mismatch… for guys… the questions also change over the course of the life. Mine have. The questions I had @ age 18… are not the fundamental ones I have now. I think most guys don’t ask effective questions… I am writing to try to help some guys ask better questions and understand things better, as I wish I had.
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Well said.
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