Diminishing returns to “learning more game”

There are diminishing returns to “learning more game” or “improving your game.” Average or below-average guys who begin learning game (they improve themselves and their value-delivery mechanism) see rapid improvements. As average guys move away from being average and spend more time with women, they lose their ridiculous views about women and learn that women are people too and have their own set of reproductive, social, and sexual challenges. Women make many mistakes in the dating game, but low-level guys are blind to many of the mistakes, and to many of the feelings women feel.

Once you learn the models, you maximize your own value, you sort out your psychology, you do the things you need to do, you start seeing the results… you will probably run out of room to grow. Male-female polarity is very old. The game is very old. The growth of feminism and changes in birth control have, however, led men to need to discover, or re-discover, game in each generation. Optimal game today is not precisely what optimal game was in 2000 or 1980 or 1948… social media and phones have layered some nuances that didn’t exist then. But the fundamentals remain.

I don’t think there is NOTHING left to discover. There are new ideas left. The big ideas in game, around body, fitness, health, style, male-female polarity, eye-contact, accepting rejection, gentle teasing, escalation, push-pull, hot-cold, demonstrating higher value… I get them. I don’t implement them perfectly and have many f**k ups of my own. New guys need to master them of course.

There are aspects to my game that could be improved. My cold approach is actually not that good. Usually I rely on something observational, which is not always the best way to go. But, like I said, it has been “good enough.” In the last ten years, it’s been pretty rare for me to feel desperate.

This is also why I think I will end up not writing much more here. There are aspects of the game I can improve… but they are not that big and I don’t care much about them. When the skill has been mastered, execution becomes more important than study.

It’s been a while since I’ve been truly surprised by something a woman said or did. Unfortunately, I also have persistent, annoying injuries that prevent me from doing all that I’d like to do in the gym. That shows up in body terms. I’m still above-average, far above-average for my age, but not where I was or could be.

Author: The Red Quest

How can we live and be in society?

9 thoughts on “Diminishing returns to “learning more game””

  1. I agree and it’s surprising that this isn’t talked about more (I guess they just want to keep selling courses…).
    After some point, it’s way more important to fix your biggest handcaps. For example, if you’re broke and can’t even pay your bills… your game may be completely on point, but the lack of money will always be a point of stress between you and a possible relationship.
    Imo, a masters degree on game won’t really save you for long…


    1. I don’t know how old you are, but I assume at some point you will get at or near your peak and want to learn/do other things… having a girlfriend can free up a lot of time spent hunting… depending again on goals/desires.


  2. Totally understand where you’re coming from. FWIW, I really enjoy your commentary. A rare sane voice in a sea of noise. Maybe just giving your take on articles that you find interesting (or books) from time to time. Maybe start a book club?


    1. I might… not sure that’s a super high value activity, but maybe…

      Book club is tempting but I have seen how many people buy the books linked, let alone read them… it’s not high. The data point pretty clearly here.


    1. Agree with the sentiment about improvement, but most men are blind to their dirty corners. We need to learn how to identify our garbage, throw it out, and replace it with something nicer. When your trying to pick up a hottie, you tend to be much more conscious of poor eye contact, fidgety body language and awkward laughs.

      “The girl is your mirror.” I believe it was Tom T who said that.

      Liked by 1 person

  3. > the big ideas in game, around body, fitness, health, style, male-female polarity, eye-contact, accepting rejection, gentle teasing, escalation, push-pull, hot-cold, demonstrating higher value… I get them. New guys need to master them of course.

    Yeah. I would actually call all this “the basics.” They are big ideas, but “entry level” big ideas. And yes, new guys do need to get after these basics… and if they really get it, and do the work, they’ll level up pretty fast.

    But level up to “lower intermediate.”

    All those things are like “freshman year” toward a 4 year degree. And Masters’ degrees (and PhDs) are available for those that have the stones and the drive to keep going.

    > The game is very old. It’s just that the growth of feminism and changes in birth control have led men to need to discover, or re-discover, it in each generation.

    The game IS very old. Yeah.

    We shouldn’t need to “rediscover” the basics, but the “civil rights” movement (aka feminism/progressivism/Marxism) has put a layer of BS over biology and reality. Both biology / reality are still here (of course), easy to see, but increasing unpopular vs the (insincere) veneer of “protecting the vulnerable,” which has been this great cause of the West, which meant teaching men to be bold and dominant has taken a back seat to that other noise.

    A lot of the value of game has been smoked out but “civil rights” and other anti-biology clutter. Men mostly have to reject modernism/progressivism to allow Game to seep in. Nature is not “progressive.” And to ignore nature is to lose.

    There is a certain philosophy that I think is confused and misguided, but does, in fact, claim to try to address natural law and hierarchies and real sexuality. I won’t repeat that groups name… for reasons I’ve given elsewhere… but I agree with some of their basic philosophies.

    > you will probably run out of room to grow.

    Here is where I would diverge.

    I am shocked by how much there is to learn.

    EX: When I started… I thought I was on “level 3 of 10 levels.” I was deluded about my own value, and the potential for a man. I was clueless and couldn’t appreciate the scale of the work to be done.

    EX: As I got better, my “eyes opened” to more potential, I could see how deep some men really where, and I thought I was on “level 23 of 100.” I had gotten measurably better, but I could see more of what there was to learn.

    EX: Now, I am much, much better. Really shows in my Game. Really shows in how the girls react to me, the quality of my relationships, my coaching, my ability to handle BS, my ability to set things up so there is no BS at all… and I think I am on “level 300 of 1000.”

    So… if you’re a man like me, and you keep seeing more of what is possible… I think I’d be a fool to think the scale really stops at “1000.” It might be 10,000. Or 1 MM. A lot of room to grow.

    @RedQuest: Your notes on “non-monogamy ecosystem” (just for example)… that is “stuff to learn” that goes way, way beyond “the basics.” You’re an incredible example of how far a man can go. All so, so far beyond the basics. You’re another one that opened my eyes to and endless horizon of potential for understanding “game”/sex/relationships/mating/etc.

    EX: For me, I have been talking for a while that I am so into LMR. LMR represents a “deep stage” of game (the last moments before “you score”), and because it’s a kind of conclusion, there is a lot at stake in that moment, and big parts of “game” bubble up for both guys/girls in those moments.

    And if the “approach” is easy to get to, “taking a number” a little less so, “getting a date” even less so… the “LMR” (or not) stage is much more rare. So to get 100 iterations of LMR takes time. Beginners will have no idea. Intermediate guys, not there yet. I’ll call myself “lower advanced” and I am in a good position to study this level of the funnel…

    And I have a lot to say. Learning, learning, learning.

    > This is also why I think I will end up not writing much more here.

    I think you’re bored. And I think you’ve been bored for a while. You’re not inspired by this topic, even as you are an incredible expert.

    You might be inspired again. This topic is rather persistent. And even if you stop writing…

    What A GIFT this blog is and has been.

    Viva RED QUEST. You’re an exceptional man. One of the greatest minds for Game I have ever known.


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