Roasted at Thanksgiving this year, and the legend of Ms. Slav

At Thanksgiving this year I got roasted… hot young Ms. Slav was the main topic of conversation… even though she wasn’t there and I’ve not seen her in a while, and none of the participants were present for her presence at Thanksgiving two years ago. Word gets around, and a jealous relative brought her up early by saying, “Whatever happened to your girlfriend Ms. Slav anyway?” From there, others took up the theme, and I think extensive snide commentary and questions about her were an attack on my current arrangement, and haters love revenge.

If you f**k with the social order of things, the social order of things will f**k with you back. Women hate seeing older guys with hot young chicks, not just because the older guy is unavailable but because seeing an older guy with a hot young chick will give other guys ideas, which is far worse than the one weird outlier guy who gets the girl every other guy wants. Guys hate seeing older guys with hot young chicks because the other guy is envious. Not all guys… some guys are past bullshit envy and will be genuinely happy for another guy getting one over on society and knobbing a tight young girl… but the majority want to be the hammer pounding the nail that sticks out.

For most guys I think Thanksgiving, yesterday, would’ve been uncomfortable… for me it was a bit annoying to see the social order fighting back, with the representatives of the social order behaving like zombies, not even realizing who or what is pulling their strings… but it is what it is, and I knew that I was pulling a social ret**rd move by bringing Ms. Slav into that part of my life. I should’ve “accidentally” put some pics of me f**king her on my phone and then “accidentally” had them on the screen, when I was supposed to be showing cute dog or apartment pics. If you want to be a player, some bad things will come from it, and it seems to me that most guys who’ve truly been players and written about it don’t emphasize the bad parts. It can be lonely, and it can be alienating, and it can cause intense envy and jealousy. Older women are jealous they’re not young and hot any more; guys are jealous that you’re going to take home a hot slut and they’re going to take home no one, or their heavy wife who doesn’t like them any more anyway. Few women love men more than sugar. Few women love men more than sloth.

Most people, once they exit their teens and mid-20s, rarely or never encounter a hot chick. They move to the suburbs… shack up… drive everywhere, getting fat as they do, cause they’re too dumb and lazy to ride a bike… their main experience of raw beauty comes through the TV. Guys who are, or want to be, players… move downtown, or next to the college, and practice cold approach. They do things that’ll put them in proximity to hot chicks. Dancing, volunteering, whatever it is hot chicks do, wherever it is hot chicks go. Our world, the player world, is very different from average, in ways that can be forgotten. Amateur wannabe players think about lines to say to chicks, and actual players think about logistics… where’s the right place to live, where the hot chicks gather to get f**ked, and how do I move her from the main dating venues back to my place… the logistics in most suburbs are worthless, which means that even guys who want to be players there mostly can’t. If a guy can’t be a player, he might as well shack up with the hottest acceptable chick he can find… let himself go a little… maybe he does some desultory sets in the gym, forgetting who he was… he leans back, gets into whatever hobbies fat guys in the suburbs get into… those hobbies never include bike mechanics… he lets go… that’ll probably be me one day… not yet though. Not quite yet.

I bet some of the couples who met Ms. Slav two years ago and saw her with me went home fired up, and f**ked that night better and hotter than they had in months, or years. The guy imagined he was f**king Ms. Slav… and Ms. Slav was wearing more clothing than was typical of her… she is a disruptor of the social order… the woman imagined guys still getting excited for her… wishing she’d been more adventurous in college, wishing she’d said yes to more of the charming players who wanted to slip their fingers into her underwear… instead of her thinking so much about what her b***hy friends thought… they weren’t the ones who were going to get off… she was… and now she is invisible to the high caliber men… at least she has her children… she better guard her daughter… lest her daughter end up like Ms. Slav, and satisfied… the social order must be preserved…

The right way to respond to the sniping, needless to say, is amused mastery and agree & amplify. The comments don’t bother you. You admit the other person is right. “Yes, you’re right, I probably am very bad.” “Yes, you’re right, she probably can’t make her own decisions.” Shrug and smile. “Sometimes you like who you like, you know?” Never let them under your skin. “You sure seem very interested in this… why is that?” “You seem pretty obsessed.” “You do things your way, I do things my way.” Let the hostility play out in the subtext, never the text. They’re the haters with the problems. You don’t see the problems. You smile. What’s their problem? You don’t quite see it.

Yesterday, the people whose lives have nothing of real interest in them saw a glimmer of interest and tried to multiply that glimmer into something real. It’s possible to love family and not agree with family. Boredom is the modern human condition and if someone escapes from it, particularly in a way that others cannot follow, he must be dragged back into the condition of boredom. I admire even the old ladies at the sex clubs, despite them not appealing to me or most men, because they’ve not yet let boredom win. What’s there to talk about, if not how someone violated the rules? Then you’d have to have something to say, apart from how much you like that new TV show, the one where you don’t know if the hot leads will do it, or won’t. The tension keeps you on the edge of your seat. Isn’t it exciting to watch other people’s erotic drama? Wasn’t it nice, you don’t mean to be implying, when you had some of your own?

Jealousy is a kind of magic, at times. Read enough cheating stories, or hear them after a few drinks, and you’ll find that jealousy can generate the intense feeling that generates hot sex. Esther Perel’s books touch this. Inject a little jealousy into the average, erotically dead life, and good things may happen… but the people to whom the good things happen, will hate you for it. Jesus had to die.

He had to die for the story to work.

He dies at age 33: a time when the top players haven’t reached their sexual zenith, but when the average guy is done.

A man who makes things different, who is different, needs to be attacked, and ideally needs to die, because the social order always wins, in the short term.

Ms. Slav wasn’t at Thanksgiving… but her ghost may be at Thanksgiving from here, out.

Author: The Red Quest

How can we live and be in society?

12 thoughts on “Roasted at Thanksgiving this year, and the legend of Ms. Slav”

  1. Social mores are a bane in situations like this when friends and family intersect.

    Reminds me of a William Gibson short story called “The Belonging Kind”. The main character discovers creatures that morph to completely socially adapt and be undiscovered chameleon like.

    Been a push pull with me, not wanting to completely belong but needing to make my way, and that’s the same sentiment I read in your post.


    1. It’s tricky, cause your family is genuinely important, probably the most important thing in your life. Your family is the platform on which everything else happens (and you are part of that platform of course).

      Your family also thinks they’re right and thinks they’re encouraging you to do the right thing.

      In some ways, they’re correct… the next generation really does matter.

      In other ways… they want to deny the hold that hot young girls have on virtually all straight men. And families usually encourage their younger female members not to be titanic sluts, too, so it’s not just a male thing. The attacks on young females are more intense than the attacks on guys.

      Families do imply to young girls, “your beauty is temporary, but your children are for the rest of your life.” That’s correct.

      But many people, even people who have already married and divorced, want to ignore the changes in incentives wrought by divorce laws and easy p***y.

      So it’s not like your family is “wrong…” it’s that the incentives are wrong… they also do want to police behavior cause what if every man gets the idea that there’s hot young p***y out there? That will weaken the already weak incentives to marry & stay married. That’s a very dangerous idea, particularly to older women who keep families together.

      The post above is not a “families suck and don’t understand me” rant. I’m too old for that kind of dumb juvenile shit. In some ways… they understand me too well… and that is what provokes their reaction.


    2. > creatures that morph to completely socially adapt and be undiscovered chameleon like

      There is a terrible book, with a really good intro, call The Libertine Reader (I do NOT recommend it… the Libertine authors are tedious and repetitive writers).

      But… in the opening essay, they make a distinction between the Petit Libertine and the Proper, raging Libertine. Both want what they are not supposed to have… they have “uncommon” tastes, and they act on them.

      But the Petit Libertine, he “plays nice.” He “exchanges glances,” “slips the girl his number,” meets up in hotels on his lunch break… etc. It’s “hush hush” debauchery.

      The “Proper” Libertine wants to fuck the girl in full view of the nuns and the governance. (EX: The Marquis de Sade.)
      He wants to flaunt his disregard for norms. He wants to destroy norms. He is bitter at the Petit Libertine, because the Petit “pretends” where the Proper never pretends.

      Daygame is a mix of both. Cold Approach in a bar is expected, so it’s not so “rule breaking.” Cold approach on the street breaks norms… it is “flaunting” sexual access. Especially bad to approach “young girls” you don’t know. So… we tone it down, if we’re wise. I have had very, very little trouble, as I am more of the “Petit” Libertine type. I can run Game “in the mall” all day long, and no one notices. I am happy to be as “under the radar” as I need to be… and debauch in private.

      I like the distinction.

      I think there is a lot of room to be “deviant” as long as you don’t demand acceptance or to be “center stage.” I think that is better for everyone. I like tradition and the civilized world… and being uncivilized out of sight. Not so much of a chameleon as “subtle.”


      1. I’ve done both and been both, depending on the situation. I kinda like being disruptive at times.

        This blog project is disruptive… it has probably gotten some guys thinking in a certain, dangerous direction… the blog project looks at what the combination of feminism + birth control (IUD, hormonal, etc.) has done in the last 60 – 70 years… and then it comes to a conclusion that is pretty antithetical to family life but very appealing to sensual hedonists.

        Feminists want it both ways… they want total sexual freedom for women, for women to be able to declare sexual coercion at any time, but also for men to subsidize women in all ways at all times, through marriage and other legal mechanisms.

        What happens when guys learn to say no to this awful deal? What happens when guys say yes to the sex but no to the subsidy? I don’t think that will actually be good for women as a group, but who am I to tell a woman what to do…?


  2. I find this post interesting, because I’ve done both–err, sort of.

    After all, it wasn’t so long ago I was a derpy husband, fat and out of shape. I think my then wife and I fucked more than most couples, but she wasn’t the 8 she was when I married her, and I wasn’t the same 28 yo baller who had recently read The Game, was in shape, and had that perfect mix of charm, amused mastery, and sexual energy.

    I remember wanting, on some Thanksgivings, to fuck my wife’s sister, who was a total princess. Anyway, to the point of what you’re saying, it’s true: most suburban married couples are fat (like I was) and comfortable, but bored, and somewhat unhappy.

    When I first got divorced and started bringing around hot young sluts, or successfully gaming hot, mostly younger chicks at bars on the few nights of the year we’d all go out (my married friends and their wives) together, I experienced this same bipolar reaction.

    The main thing is that it’s EXCITING for everyone involved, for the reasons you mention above–the overweight wife who used to be hot and desirable, wanting to be gamed; the bored, brow-beaten husband wanting to fuck hot young desirable chicks.

    Most people want to fit in and be comfortable, but they don’t realize that fitting in and being comfortable is boring AF. The player lifestyle, on the other hand, can be lonely at times, and lead to situations of social shaming, or feeling like a downright outcast, as I often do–but it’s not boring, and unlike 95% of the people on this planet, I’m pursuing the very thing that God or DNA or whatever you want to call it intended me to do, which is to fuck hot young chicks, or at least try to fuck hot young chicks.

    To go a bit meta, part of this is all simply that we’re currently going through a massive social change, but everyone still wants to pretend it’s the 1970’s and the goal is still to get married, move to the suburbs, and replicate. That’s no longer really viable for reasons I’ve written about.
    But that doesn’t stop people from trying. A big part of the problem is the general lack of female agency–in relationships and life in general. Chicks want to fuck around through their 20s and enjoy lots of different experiences, but then want to settle down whenever they decide that is, but then take no responsibility for the state of the relationship they settle down in. Basically, it’s all on the guy, and most guys are conditioned to say “happy wife; happy life”, which means she’ll get bored of him pretty quick and then cheat on him, divorce him, or become a fat, sex shaming ninny who finds other things to do with her life, like focus on a career, or volunteer at the local church or school or whatever have you.

    In the end, chicks would do better to either marry young and encourage the guy to stay in a state of fitness/health/wealth where they still want to fuck regularly OR enjoy fucking players and stop worrying so much about fitting in with everyone, and then settle down much later, realizing that her options at that point will not be as good as what they were. This isn’t nearly as bad as it sounds, but from what I’ve seen it seems like a lot of women are inclined to treat it as an existential crisis, which is why so many are unhappy and unable to find suitable men later in life–because no one’s suitable, especially her.

    Like, I would love to be a professional baseball player, but that ship has sailed–so I set my sights on other things and move on. It would seem that a lot of women simply can’t do this or admit that the Chads they once fucked while young are just not going to marry them. To some degree, I wonder if social media makes this problem worse, because it can essentially turns any chick who’s even somewhat above average in terms of beauty into a self-obsessed diva, and that doesn’t bode well for the rest of her life, because the ONLY thing she has, and the ONLY thing anyone cares about, is her beauty, and as we all know, that is a fleeting thing.


    1. I’m trying to write to the guys who want to be different but haven’t found a way yet.

      People who let the excitement die, usually die, unless they can find some other way to be (like taking care of others… that’s the role of and for many older women… but our society denigrates it, sadly). Our society doesn’t have good ways or role models for people to get old/older.

      Too little fitting in, and you’re a loner loser retard. Too much fitting in, and you’re boring. It’s about finding the right balance, for most people.

      Very true regarding massive social change. No one really knows what to do with it. Modern hormonal contraceptives became available only in 1960, not that long by the human race’s timeline. Then there is the narcissism of the boomers, the divorce rage of the ’70s and ’80s… societies are still dealing with the aftermath.

      I dunno, I have a post coming up on this topic, but I do think a decent number of people are happy, happy enough, with working on their kids, loving their spouses as best they can, letting some of the passion go in return for family building. In the roast post I emphasized competition and longing too much.


  3. > At Thanksgiving this year I got roasted

    Great opening line.

    This essay comes off a little “tight jawed,” but I know the situation was irritating. And the larger theme of “crabs in a bucket” sucks. But, as usual, you have a great read of sexual dynamics.

    > Guys hate seeing older guys with hot young chicks because the other guy is envious

    I find a lot of non-players guys that like talking about Game. They have some story of flirtation/”danger” they can add.

    But “fading alphas” don’t like the conversation. And neither do “white knights.” Both will get aggressive.

    > it can cause intense envy and jealousy

    As I read you piece, I was thinking there is a big difference for me between “envy” and “jealousy.” Envy (perhaps) motivates me to build. Jealous motivates me to tear down. Envy is higher up the “energy scale” (Hawkins scale) than jealousy… it’s how “higher consciousness” types transmute “jealousy.” The envious can probably “borrow” your sexual energy and have better sex that night. The jealous can just “stew” in resentment.

    In my world – there is never, ever, and upside to “jealous.” For me, jealous is a name for a particular type of cancer.

    > “Yes, you’re right, I probably am very bad.”

    I tell everyone, including the girls I date, “I am a terrible person.” At some level – at least with regard to societal norms… that is true. And it steals their thunder. (And helps me focus on owning my dark side.)

    As for people taking shots at me, my passion for “mating/dating,” etc., I am very comfortable with the topic, and I almost always try to “reframe.”

    NAYSAYER: There is something distasteful about all this… blah blah blah
    ME: You know…
    ME: Everyone of us is here because a man and a woman made a connection that led to children
    ME: And insofar as people might be interested in learning how to connect at an intimate level… there is wholesomeness as well
    ME: There is a reason romance remains such a classic genre

    And most bitchy chicks at a party aren’t ready to deal with all that… and they retreat.

    In general, I can bring almost ANY WOMAN around to being warm to the topic. Men, not as often, but women… even the discussion of “seduction” is seductive. It works. And even in the discussion, I can play bring a “dominant, warm father” energy… and push her into the “little girl” role, and she’ll open/soften.

    “I want to reclaim the beauty of it, and the pivotal part it plays in how we relate to each other.”
    “Seduction is the art of allowing the other to feel alive.”
    “It’s the creation of beauty.”
    — Hans Comyn

    That is “clean” ^. That is actually how I approach a lot of Game (internally). I believe all that.

    And clean energy is disarming. As we bring “clean” energy to a topic, (even at “normie” events) we can more easily win over the crowd.

    “Clean” and “romantic” are hard to hate on.


    1. It was a little irritating, but also kind of humorous… there can be a lot of humor in the space where irritating and humorous overlap. Attacks that are supposed to lower status, can also raise the status of the attacked person, particularly if he stays cool and doesn’t enter the attacker’s frame. I like the agree & amplify, a lot of the time, the calling out of the subtext… “You’re right, I am very very bad.” That kind of thing.

      There are also the bare facts on the ground: if a guy is parading around with a hot 8, that’s unfakeable status. It can be attacked, but it’s real. This is why the attackers are kinda frustrated… the attack almost can’t be fully successful… maybe it can succeed if the rest of the family is religious or something, or if a family is somehow ultra feminist… but feminists don’t have kids and hate families, so that’s not likely… not among normal people.

      A lot of guys, and gals, do feel both envy and jealousy… they want to have what I have, or be the girl I have (had), but they also want to tear me down for having it. The social dynamics are complex and interesting. Maybe I brought her because, subconsciously, I wanted to stir those social dynamics up. I don’t remember if I said this in the original pieces from two years ago, but I thought seriously about not inviting her… it was “socially stupid” in some ways… but I checked with the hosts, and then I checked with Ms. Slav, and told Ms. Slav it might be kinda weird and that she should be mentally ready… but I think she likes making some waves too, and wanted to violate those social expectations. Or she just doesn’t mind… she’s been violating social norms/expectations since she was like 12/13… she’s told me the stories.

      Hot young girls can be very disruptive to the social order, a theme I rarely see in the larger media, and one I’ve been banging on about for a while.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. > Maybe I brought her because, subconsciously, I wanted to stir those social dynamics up.

        Yeah… I think that is what you are saying. Being the Petit Libertine is not enough for you… you want to “put it forward.”

        There is a courage there, I respect. It’s “punk.” There is some “fuck you” to it. I like it.

        I have said before that I think you are good example of an “open”/liberal player (which is consistent with “punk” too), where as I seem to have settled into a more closed/traditional/conservative player’s role.

        You wanting to “open up” the conversation, to challenge norms, to change patterns… that is consistent with a lot of your work here.

        As I identify with “conservative” patterns more, I see all of this is “there is nothing new.” I don’t care about the feminists at all anymore (I used to, but I do not anymore). I see what you see, almost exactly… but I am not interested in them, or their ideas, not even in fighting them. I am thinking of marriage, not because I think it is easy, but because I am sure it has never been easy.

        I am willing to slide into conversations about “mating and dating” with normies and try to diffuse all but the more insane among them… that is to say, the “trendy” sheeplike feminists (which is most of them), the ones that have accepted that “shallowness” as truth, and because their hostility and bullshit is so shallow, it’s also easy to reframe it.

        If I can’t win over someone with a “feminist bent,” I can usually win over some of those that are listening in.

        We have seen so much of this before (to me, that sentiment, is at the center of what it means to feel “conservative” – there is nothing new).

        > There are also the bare facts on the ground: if a guy is parading around with a hot 8, that’s unfakeable status. It can be attacked, but it’s real.


        There is an “old” expression that says, “I big front has a big back.” Or another version, “A tall tree catches a lot of wind.”

        In both cases, to “have” is to create the opportunity to be taken from, or attacked, at the very least. That is why being a crab in the bucket is such a “safe alternative.” If you’re at the bottom of the bucket, with all the other crabs, there is no place to fall. It’s miserable, but predicable and safe. The only threat “from the bottom” is that life might exist beyond the bucket.

        All of this has always been true. Everything is “old.” Including every part of seduction. The thrill of victory, the Secret Society, and various daggers of the jealous minions…

        Many men have stepped into this battle before us.


      2. I should have emphasized, and I have a post coming on this, that plenty of guys, including some who were there, are fine and happy with their lives, and their middle-aged wives… their priority is maintaining a strong relationship with their spouse, and raising successful kids. Even today, there are more normal people like this, than the online and media people talk about. They divide the world in two categories, is this good for my family and kids, or is it not? Anything that’s not good for their family and kids, they ignore or try to push away.

        Those guys… yeah, on a gut erotic level, they’d like to fuck a hot young girl, like straight guys everywhere. But they aren’t jealous… they’ve deliberately chosen to orient their lives in a different direction. To them, seeing a guy like me is amusing, like watching a movie is amusing, but they don’t want to trade places. They’re the ones who laugh and smile, shake their heads, but they’re not actively hostile.

        The people who are really actively hostile… I think have something wrong or uncertain in their own relationship. I think I mentioned in the post, the woman who was hosting, she thought it was kinda funny, and the mom of the boys, she thought it was amusing too. To them, also, a guy who is dating much younger women is, on some level, not to be taken seriously. That’s an interesting frame, and it’s more successful than the openly hostile frames, or the openly jealous frames.

        >> Everything is “old.” Including every part of seduction. The thrill of victory, the Secret Society, and various daggers of the jealous minions…

        Yes, and yet… what’s interesting is the big shift in the balance of power and preference over the last 70 years, since birth control got good. For most of agricultural history… if you as a man wanted sex, you needed to work the local social/family scene. You needed your father to negotiate for you with the girl’s father. There were ways around this (conquest, war brides, etc.), but, for most of human history, hot young girls were not running around alone, making their own sexual decisions. A hot young girl who tried that, wouldn’t remain alone for long. A healthy society didn’t, maybe doesn’t, let chicks do that.

        By the 1920s that was starting to break down. Later, birth control ripped it apart (available starting 1960). We’re still figuring out what’s what. Being a player used to be reserved for the very small number of wealthy aristocrats. Or warlords, depending on the society. Today… it’s open to almost everyone, as the huge share of unwed mothers among the degenerate classes shows. Chicks are running around, making their own (frequently bad) sexual decisions. Fathers have little or no influence on what hot girls do. In some ways it’s old… in other ways, we’ve been experiencing decades of chaos.

        Read enough history… and the degree to which the universal nature of access to being a player is very new.


  4. > Ms. Slav was the main topic of conversation… even though she wasn’t there and I’ve not seen her in a while, and none of the participants were present for her presence at Thanksgiving two years ago

    Good for you for bringing her around.


    I have been thinking lately that ALPHAs have more drama in their sexual lives than “SIGMAs.”

    I have not brought a girl around my family since 2016. And I have had a LOT of girls in my life… but, as I identify more with a SIGMA style, I do things alone, and in small groups (one on one). That is true even with my male friends (I want a one on one experience), but it’s always true with the girls I date. We have private, personal, “duets” only.

    Being “SIGMA” about it all became more and more true as I climbed out of the matrix. Across my whole life.

    So… a lot of the drama comes we want to integrate our Player persona into public life – and thus come the daggers and arrows. I am able to date often, and much, much younger women… in part… as I never put myself in a situation where I need any communal participation to pull that off.

    Classically (and I have been thinking about this a lot as well, lately) the KING or the WEALTHY MERCHANT could have a much younger wife (her 15 to his 60), but everyone recognized his power, and it “made sense.” He could do what others could not, because he actually WAS what others were not. And it was obvious.

    As an PUBLIC ALPHA, he might catch heat (probably). But for a lot of people, they could understand it – his SUCCESS/VALUE gave him “the right” to unrealistic outcomes.

    There is a chance I will be in a position in the next 5 years, where I want to marry a much younger girl. And I may have to ask her father for permission. AND… I will likely be as old, or older, than he is. And the ONLY REASON it will make sense to anyone (including myself)… is if I am particularly successful. With the girl, but in general.

    As a SIGMA, I can pull off dating girls 1/2 my age (or more) for the rest of my vital years. But as I want FAMILY or integration into a community via a marriage… I expect trouble… mitigated only by an amazing track record of success and lots of resources.


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