THE GAME comes out in 2005, MYSTERY METHOD a year later. A bunch of pickup blogs show up, almost all abandoned by now, and sometimes descending into madness and/or conspiracy theories along the way. Few guys have any desire to write about pickup and chicks for more than a few years, and the ones who do are usually unbalanced, or nuts in some other way(s). It’s important to have coolness and status before trying to evangelize or teach, yet the most prominent, least anonymous guys appear to lack both. Most are the kind of guys I’d want to avoid in real life, not the kind who I’d want to get a drink and chat with.
A few years ago (2015) the book MATE: BECOME THE MAN WOMEN WANT, by Geoffrey Miller and Tucker Max, came out, but didn’t seem to make a splash. In a major occasion on par with the moon landing, Red Quest as a blog is founded in 2017, its initiation commemorated by a massive, 10-ten granite ziggurat next to the Washington Monument in DC. Red Quest’s readership peak is 2019, as of this writing, although you never know, maybe some feminist tweeters will come along to denounce me, and thus drive up traffic. Most people who find their way here from twitter or reddit, belong to twitter or reddit, and prefer corporate media. This is sad, but beyond my ability to fix. They’ve been captured by the big-tech borg. Independence and robustness against censorship aren’t appreciated. A few people complain about centralization of power among big tech companies, but the vast majority of people’s actions show preference for big centralized platforms, not for decentralized, censorship-resistant efforts (describing what seems to be true is not the same as approving of a thing that seems to be true).
What’s going on? Knowledge about how to do better with chicks is widely available, but guys don’t seem to avail themselves of it. The other day, I was talking to a few guys in their 20s, and they asked me something about women and dating, so I told them to read THE GAME. Their faces fell and their body language shifted: the idea of having to read a book was so horrifying and foreign that they couldn’t see themselves doing it. If they can’t be bothered to read a fun and interesting book over the course of a few hours, what hope is there for them? Guys who can’t do the easy stuff will never learn the hard stuff.
Chicks themselves are not out there talking about the excessive number of socially smooth, interesting, and cool guys who are seducing them. If anything, chicks are complaining about how “cold” and “inhumane” it is to meet guys through online dating, and how they wish guys would approach them in real life. Chicks are lonely, bored, and understimulated, by their own admission. Memes about funny cats go viral, ideas about how to get laid, don’t. I posit that most guys don’t care that much about getting laid, and even the ones who somewhat care, don’t care or care much about figuring out how to do so effectively. The information itself has been around for at least a decade and a half, probably longer… and it’s still very niche. Most guys are ineffective.
Some guys still seem to think that doing better with chicks is simply impossible: and yet the guys who practice the game demonstrate otherwise. Or maybe most guys really aren’t picky, and are okay dating a few points below themselves. They perceive the mountain to be too high, and go back to the Shire of video games. I know a coach who says his clients think a same-day lay (SDL) is impossible, because it’s so far out from their idea of what’s possible.
Overall, it’s not like men are better at getting laid via some other avenue. Men seem to be getting laid less than they did a few years back, which is also consistent with the “most guys don’t care much” thesis. You’ve probably seen the graphs showing that the number of guys in their teens / 20s who have gone without sex in the last year has something like doubled, or maybe a bit more, from like 8% to like 22%, in the last ten to twelve years:
The number of video gamers and herbivores seems to be going up… which is I guess kind of nice from a “competition” level, but it’s existentially depressing from a societal and cultural level. Maybe one day humanity goes extinct cause the video games are too good. Maybe the effort and subtlety needed to master the art of seduction is too great. Most guys have returned to an oral-first culture, and thus the extensive written corpus about how to get laid lies fallow, for want of readers. In a similar human puzzle, Why aren’t there more computer science majors? It’s probably the most lucrative undergrad degree, and highly impactful on the average person’s life (the average person spends an unbelievable number of hours per day on the phone, which is another way of saying, “Doing things CS majors produce”). Lots of people go to college, get worthless degrees, and spend the next decade plus paying back “student” loans that can’t be discharged via normal means like bankruptcy. Weird! I hypothesize most people aren’t smart enough to do computer science degrees but maybe there are other reasons. Most guys are smart enough to implement the rudimentary parts of game, yet they don’t. Maybe guys are lazy? Maybe they have short time horizons?
Some guys who download and read the book do nothing with its ideas right away, but a planted seed may later sprout. Could be that “time” is a key element for ideas to spread. But ideas from THE GAME and such have had a long time to spread, and seem not to have. Video game ideas, by the contrast, appeal to many millions.
There seemed to be a lot of energy in the pickup and seduction worlds in the ’00s and early ’10s. Where’d it go? Guys in their 20s don’t seem to be writing about seduction and dating experiences (if I’m missing guys who are, tell me). Maybe, today, being in good shape, a male high 7, and having okay pictures of a guy looking buff and hiking or whatever, is enough to snare high 6s and some 7s off dating apps, so the drama of cold approach and bar seduction isn’t needed. The process is a little smoother, its terrifying peaks and valleys and storms smoothed into a neater, more manicured path. Meanwhile the guys playing video games and getting fat are mostly out of the game altogether, or get women consistent with their lives. A guy who gets frustrated enough with his underperforming sex life will find his way to the knowledge he needs, while a guy who is fundamentally content with underperformance, won’t.
Another theory: most guys interested in and writing about seduction are fundamentally unappealing or crazy, a point elaborated in, “The most stridently asserted opinions will disappear down the memory hole.” I look at most of the guys writing about player blogs and they do not seem cool to me, and many of them say and tweet crazy things that will repel normal people, or reasonable people. So it’s hard to separate the crazy opinions on various topics from the reasonable, but slightly unconventional, views on how sex and dating actually work.
Maybe this sort of thing will always be of interest to only a small group, for some other reason I’m not aware of. Maybe I’ve not plumbed the psychology of man sufficiently to discern it. I think I’d imagined that Red Quest as a blog would be more enticing: more efficient, and often effective, ways of getting copiously laid. Even if most guys aren’t interested in undertaking these practices, I imagined they’d be interested in or curious about them. They’re powerful tools, however unusual.
Many guys may encounter some basic game ideas, like “man up and ask her out” and “escalate” and “do some basic lifting,” implement those ideas, and be okay enough. They’re trying to find an acceptable girlfriend and stop, once they find her. Most guys don’t start new companies, we go to work for existing companies. The notion that “most guys don’t truly care about getting laid and being effective” is still my top one, but it’s a weakly held one too.
I don’t have much of a conclusion. Whatever makes ideas popular, does not appear to apply to guys figuring out how to get laid. So much for men being obsessed with sex… if we are obsessed with it, we’re not capable of learning how to effectively get it. Maybe the guys getting laid have good social skills and aren’t much online?
The last year and a half have been revealing. I’ve speculated in private that I think this universe is self-limiting in terms of popularity, because the accurate, useful ideas about picking up chicks are often swirled together with a bunch of other off-putting, inaccurate, and widely disliked ideas: maybe the guys interested in systematically studying the “getting laid” domain are a bunch of anti-social people discussing social skills, while the socially skilled look at some of the anti-social or ignorant remarks and GTFO.
If you know any, direct them here, so they can denounce. Ten years ago, it seemed like pickup artists and such were regularly denounced online and in the media, and now, no one does. It seems the culture wars have moved on. We lost, at least in terms of numbers and attention.
The “feminists” of the 2000s became obsessed with transexuals and “critical race theory.” The game/pickup guys of that same era became obsessed with authoritarianism and MAGA symbols. I miss the old days, when people were interested in f**king in the real world, instead of fighting online.
64 thoughts on “Most guys don’t care much about getting laid, I hypothesize”
>> A few years ago (2015) the book MATE: BECOME THE MAN WOMEN WANT, by Geoffrey Miller and Tucker Max, also came out, but it didn’t seem to make a splash
This was the book that got me into Game, actually*
Not completely true, I had read some Roosh before, but it actively got me into online fucking apps.
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MATE is a good book… but also one I feel like I rarely see referenced/discussed… it’s also nice because unlike harder core books, it can be given to younger guys w/o their moms flipping out.
Honestly, MATE is load of purple pill garbage. It is a horrible, horrible book. In my opinion it falls into a “build a better beta” category. Why? Because it is centred around women’s wants (“become the man women want”). The whole message is wrong.
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You are right, they are not interested enough, or at least not working to get laid. There are many factors. Incels are also used to ‘virtual’ women, so they find ‘real’ ones not so attractive.
In many forums you can see them voting famous attractive women and still finding them like ‘just 7/10’ because they don’t like the eyes or the tits are too small. Basically they have got used to unreality.
Then you have the guys who are attractive but have zero game. They expect girls to hit on them. This creates another external wrong perspective: ‘either girls hit on you or you have no chances with them’. We see this specially at online dating.
Another angle is the risky culture of dating. Meeting a random girl, an average attractive woman, taking her to your house, maybe do unprotected sex, without serious prospects, some soft guys don’t like all those ideas. They want a experience they can control 100%.
For those guys thirty of new experiences, with no shame on being horny, not looking for a 10/10 but just a Yes/no woman the possibilities have increased a lot.
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I remember fondly the heady excitement of the “seduction community” in the first decade of the millennium. During 2000-2003, the Usenet group alt.seduction.fast was where the seed germinated, where guys with psuedonyms like Maniac High, MrSex4uNYC, Franco/Zarathustra_fi, Rio, nightlight9, Svengali, and of course, Style and Mystery, worked out a relentlessly experimental approach to seduction science (I say that without irony) based on field reports and repeatable results, insofar as there is any predictability to chicks. There was a feeling that they were unearthing facts about female human nature that were original and better than anything the psychologists could tease out. Sure, maybe Ovid and Shakespeare understood negging in their bones, but it took Mystery to break negging down into patterns that an engineer can apply with consistent outcomes.
I took one of the first Mystery Method workshops in 2002 and saw with my own eyes Mystery doing feats of social engineering with lines of cute girls that dropped my jaw. I also took workshops from later entrants Vince DiCarlo, Lance Mason, and Juggler circa 2003-2007, and learned amazing things from all of them. The way I touch women today is still thanks largely to Vince and Lance, and I attribute many of my relationships to the fact that those guys taught me nonverbal escalation. Aside from Mystery’s immense contributions, one of the best innovations was “DiCarlo Drills”, and I’m sad it’s in the past: Vince and company had the students actually physically practice “kino” (touch), body language, and other nonverbal moves on Vince and company, so you get the skills right into your muscle memory. I never became a great seducer myself, but I rose far from my initial ineptitude.
The excitement died down around 2010, and I’m not entirely sure why. Cell-phone raised boys just aren’t as interested in socializing? Testosterone is lower? The war against masculinity reached its triumphant conclusion and most guys think they should be embarrassed to want sex? Online dating and the decline of nightlife as an effective way to meet? Did the seduction community go as far as it could go, and there wasn’t much new left to discover? (No.) One of the spooky things about 2020 is that we’ve entered a time when nothing is cooler than conformity, repeating the Narrative, and zealously advancing the goals and policies of an unprecedentedly huge and powerful global establishment (while still fancying oneself a “rebel”, a Boomer/lefty habit that persists against all the evidence that oneself is absolutely opposed to rebellion). MeToo, baby! Sorry, uh, I didn’t mean to compare you to a baby…
Though I don’t comment much, I love your blog, one of the few extensions of that huge outburst of creativity that really got going circa 2000 and petered out after a decade. Other extensions I like are Krauser, Nash, RedPillDad, Yohami, Blackdragon, and the Swoop the World forum. I’m glad the flame never died.
This paragraph is a lot of what I’ve been thinking/feeling…
>>The excitement died down around 2010, and I’m not entirely sure why. Cell-phone raised boys just aren’t as interested in socializing? Testosterone is lower? The war against masculinity reached its triumphant conclusion and most guys think they should be embarrassed to want sex? Online dating and the decline of nightlife as an effective way to meet? Did the seduction community go as far as it could go, and there wasn’t much new left to discover? (No.) One of the spooky things about 2020 is that we’ve entered a time when nothing is cooler than conformity, repeating the Narrative, and zealously advancing the goals and policies of an unprecedentedly huge and powerful global establishment (while still fancying oneself a “rebel”, a Boomer/lefty habit that persists against all the evidence that oneself is absolutely opposed to rebellion).
It’s hard to imagine that the rise of smartphones has nothing to do with this… there’s a cool book, iGen, by a woman named Jean Twenge, about how mental health indicators nosedive among teens around 2012, by which point pretty much every teen has a smartphone. Now it’s 10 years later and those teens are in their 20s, and still many of them are socially retarded and childlike. There seems to be something about today’s technological, social, and cultural environments that retards growing up and becoming an adult. Smartphones seem to be part of the story, but not the whole story.
Glad you like the blog… I’m not really in the game right now, maybe won’t be again, so I’ll probably stop updating it at some point. The book collects and organizing the most valuable material, related to sex clubs & non-monogamy, the only fields I’m aware of that no one else has covered effectively. Some girls, you give them permission not to follow the standard pattern of meet -> date -> sex -> commitment -> marriage, and they’re down with it, and it can unlock a kind of abundance hard to appreciate otherwise.
I wonder what happened to Mystery. He’s got to be in his late 40s or 50s by now. I think his partner/wife/whoever had a kid at some point. That many younger girls seem curiously uninterested in getting laid is still a surprise to me.
After I wrote the above, I got to thinking… maybe online is simply “good enough.” Like, if I were willing to entertain 5s and 6s, online would probably work for me, in some sense. The guys for whom it’s good enough, do it, and that’s sufficient for them. No need to do something real, like learn how to flirt in real life. That’s consistent with the smartphone thesis.
My guess is that most guys have become disillusioned: there is no science – and little art – to hitting on chicks.
After the basics it’s just a numbers game. I also believe that PUA-awareness is greater than ever: PUA-related vids on Youtube get millions of views, which is maybe thousands of times more than what old blogs and forums used to get. Some channels are Based Zeus, Todd V Dating, Bradicus. Channels like How to Beast, FreshhandFit, Richard Cooper sometimes mix it with alpha male and culture war topics. There are countless hours of cold approaching footage which should be more helpful than the typical essays guys write about game.
Women are also used to drooling over hot guys on social media. As usual, they are more picky. Female demand for casual sex or even relationships is low, especially among the younger ones. They find fuck buddies from their social circles, often starting on Instagram or Facebook.
In my experience, there is no untapped reserve of women. Cold approaching is a war of attrition against the man, datings apps too. There’s not much to learn from failure, you usually can’t tell what made her to reject you. The lack of results either makes men decide it’s not worth it, or stick to the first or second girl they manage to bag.
Women seem to prefer “permission style” apps like Tinder where only those men whom women approve of are allowed to contact them.
They don’t enjoy men who are “not her type” approaching them in public. They still get approached quite often, from what I hear, and they’re rarely delighted when I approach them. It’s just a nuisance usually.
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You mentioned a point that I think was missing from RQ’s post:
Fitness/ new clothes/ haircut/ working on social skills is not an automatic ticket into nailing beautiful women.
An average man that does that will still have to go out and get rejected over, and over, and over, dozens of times, for every one woman that will exchange numbers and show up on a date.
Women are pickier now than ever, while being LESS attractive (fat/ Kool-Aid hair/ bitchy) in general. 60% of American women are overweight and single moms more prevalent than ever.
So it’s exponentially more work for a man to connect with a woman than ever, and the women are not as slim and feminine as they were when it was easier to meet them.
I’m 38, and remember life before dating apps and Instagram. I had sex and beautiful girlfriends without knowing game and just being a regular person. Now I have to take dating seriously as a full time job to sleep with below average looking women.
I did reach a point where I’m content to focus on work, hobbies, travel, etc. I don’t care about getting laid. I feel bad for men who are 20-something now who’ll never know what it was like before Tinder.
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>Fitness/ new clothes/ haircut/ working on social skills is not an automatic ticket into nailing beautiful women.
Definitely not an automatic ticket. But doing those things well will raise a guy’s hit rate.
The beautiful chicks are still out there getting railed, and often not by the guys who most dudes might most expect… w/o knowing more about your individual situation, it’s impossible to know what’s happening… https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2020/02/07/write-your-player-blog-its-an-advertisement-but-not-in-the-way-you-think/
>> there is no science – and little art – to hitting on chicks. After the basics it’s just a numbers game
Strong disagree here: it is a skill and art, and it is amenable to deliberate practice: https://jamesclear.com/deliberate-practice-theory. Tom Torero and Krauser’s oeuvres are devoted to them developing their hitting-on-chicks skills. I’ve heard infields from other players that show their development.
As for PUA videos… maybe the knowledge is out there… and it’s not being applied… that’s possible…
I dunno, cold approach and being social seem to have worked for me, to be working for Red Pill Dad, Nash, others….
Almost everything you’ve said here is incorrect. As someone who regularly does cold approach, there’s most definitely a skill set and technique to it, and some guys are better than others. It’s more art than science, but art is a practice like medicine, law, teaching, etc.–and the best practitioners are almost magical in their ability to execute.
You also said there’s “not much” to be learned from failure?
That’s totally backwards.
We learn almost everything by failing first. No one gets it right all the time on the first try, and anyone who doesn’t regularly experience failure is either lying or not trying very hard. All major developments in technology, science, industry, business, etc., usually result from a series of failures before the person or team gets it right–precisely because the failures teach them what doesn’t work, but leave a lot of clues and ideas about what might work.
I won’t lie: the dating environment is tough, and to some extent you’re right, girls are pickier than ever and it is a numbers game. But those numbers can be used to your advantage. I’ve slept with over 30 women (average a 7) since 2018, most of them more than 10 years younger than me–in what other time period in human history was that likely or possible, other than the modern era?
And if my experience isn’t enough to convince you, my client’s success should. These are guys who weren’t getting laid so they decided to pay for coaching, and now most of them are–often within a phone call or two where we talk about strategy, tactics, and escalation. Some guys need more time of course and everyone starts in a different spot. Do looks, age, status, location, etc. matter? Of course. But if you’re willing to put in the work, you CAN get results, often quicker than you might think.
Hit me up for coaching man. If you do the intake call and buy a 5 hour package and don’t get laid after that (provided you actually make an effort and aren’t way overweight or something totally disqualifying), I’ll give you your money back. https://redpilldad.blog/coachingrpd/
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There is also another point to consider: nowadays guys live on a cocoon of safety and they have lost the ability to suffer. Rejection is harsh, no matter how often are you used to it. Nowadays people don’t hear about news they don’t agree with, they don’t have bosses screaming at them at work, customers don’t say anything to your face, but write a negative review later. Internet dating is about that, to make rejections softer too.
In a standard life where you never have a real disappointing moment, putting you out there at the risk of being mocked up, blocked on messaging applications, plainly rejected, it is too much for them.
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Ok, this is something that I’ve talked about a little with other game/pickup friends and have a few opinions on.
First off, TRQ, I’m a big fan of your blog and have been lurking for a couple years. You’re one of the only writers under the “redpill” label that I actually think are worth reading. You’re also one of the reasons that I’m trying to start my own game blog now (as a guy in his 20’s – currently building a backlog of a few posts).
I think there are a few reasons that game/cold approach is “dying”. As mentioned by another commenter, game-awareness in the general public is still somewhat high. You see normal guys talking about simps, how to get laid on tinder, how nice guys finish last, fuckbois, etc all the time. It’s common sense these days that being a bit of a cocky, fit, asshole gets you laid. It’s not like the public is completely under this bluepill shroud or anything (as much as some “redpillers” would like to believe to make them feel special).
But I think cold approach (at least in the first-world Western countries that we live in) is becoming less accepted by girls. Obviously, it still works, I have a friend who regularly gets hot SDL’s in NYC, and have met certain pickup figures/coaches that I know still slay in places like Sydney, Vegas, Miami, etc. But game is getting harder in these sorts of places (in every form, cold approach online, social). I think there are several reasons.
1a) Online dating. A lot of pickup/cold approach is seen as weird by most everyone the way we do it. Girls will accept things that seem like a chance encounter, but most everyone thinks doing “daygame sessions” is weird. When you can meet new girls online, why would guys try something uncomfortable like that?
1b) I think online dating also increases “sexual market inequality” by increasing access for everyone. This goes beyond just Tinder and includes rich ballers in big cities flying out hot sugar babies and models for vacations and shit. 20 years ago, people couldn’t just find so many hot/rich/cool people online so easily. This makes it harder for average/below average guys to get laid.
1c) Cold approach is also less efficient than online dating in general. It’s time consuming to find and approach girls. You have to go to clubs and stay out late for nightgame, or search for openable girls on the street/parks/beaches/wherever for daygame. Sure, you can usually get a higher quality girl this way because you have more tools at your disposal, but cold approach is still a time-consuming hobby. And you can get even higher quality (though less efficiently for 99.9% of guys) through social circle.
2) Instagram. I think this is the biggest reason game is so much harder these days. Even average girls don’t need to get sexual validation from guys in person anymore. They can get it on their phone. I guarantee you the game/PUA community would only be an extremely tiny fraction of what it is today, if the same happened to average guys. Attractive girls know that they can meet (even cool and hot) guys easily for dates whenever they want and the supply is endless. So there’s just not any urgency for them unless the guy is super high value.
3) Nightclubs are declining, removing a major venue type for cold approach. It’s unclear how much they will bounce back after COVID. (Sad, because nightgame is the must fun way to meet girls IMO)
4) Stiffer competition, more “game awareness”, and less stigma around sex. I’m actually not sure how important/real this point is. This could be biased by the type of people the I know/see. Guys are wising up to this shit. Sure there are lots of dorky, skinny-fat slobs out there still, but there’s a large portion of young and older guys that go to the gym, dress well, are focused on their careers, and are aware of the importance of things like confidence. Women don’t want the sleazy guy chatting up every girl on the street when they have lots of options they’re more confident in. With platforms like Seeking Arrangements rising in popularity, women can date successful, rich guys and get paid very good money for it. Why would she go on a normal date with a guy who might just pump and dump her, when she can at least get money out of it this way?
5) Being a player isn’t cool anymore past the age of 22. Now it’s seen as juvenile, sleazy, or even misogynistic by a lot of people. Very different from 2005. Guys want to get laid, but they don’t really want the identity of a player anymore. Though this is very dependent on your social circle
While game is important, it’s hard to rely solely on game. Women want to date cool, attractive, confident guys that, yes do have attractive personalities (game), but also have cool lives. They want to date the leaders, organizers, artists, etc. Nowadays, the guys I know who sleep with REALLY hot girls in the US with game, are all really pushing over-selling themselves. They are trying to make it seem like they have connections in the girls industry/social scene when they don’t, or that they are much bigger than they are. They have fake pics of them DJing a famous festival on tinder or they’re sugar/salt-daddying on seeking arrangements.
While you of course need some level of game to get laid a lot, I think that looks and status/lifestyle can often be more important (very dependent on how you’re meeting girls though. Game is probably still the biggest factor in cold approach.)
There’s a reason that the vast majority of PUA/game guys are moving overseas these days. You can’t sleep with a lot of attractive girls as an average guy in the first-world anglosphere anymore. It’s possible, but it takes a lot of work, and it’s never going to be easy without top looks or status. The days of going out bars and charming your way into the pants of new hot, young American girls every weekend are still declining further.
I don’t want to discourage guys reading this from getting into game. It’s not a futile pursuit, and is one of the most rewarding things I’ve gotten into in my life. But it’s not easy in places like US, UK, Australia, etc anymore. It’s not that it’s hard to get good at game (it’s not if you have the right mentors/resources, are at least somewhat attractive, and have decent social skills). But even if you’re really good, it’s still time-consuming and challenging.
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>>You’re also one of the reasons that I’m trying to start my own game blog now (as a guy in his 20’s – currently building a backlog of a few posts).
That’s great… link me when you do… https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2020/02/07/write-your-player-blog-its-an-advertisement-but-not-in-the-way-you-think/ … we need the next gen of guys…
>>3) Nightclubs are declining, removing a major venue type for cold approach. It’s unclear how much they will bounce back after COVID. (Sad, because nightgame is the must fun way to meet girls IMO)
I think bars still work, though. I think I linked https://www.asleepthinking.com/blog/how-shaman-bros-killed-1oak but it’s a great take on this, consistent with my overall direction, https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2021/06/07/integrating-smart-drugs-like-mdma-molly-smartly/ …
Great comment overall, much to think about here, I do wonder if the sexual inequality/instagram things are the biggest or among the biggest things going on here. The annoying, bitchy friend from this story https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2021/07/08/one-of-the-hard-parts-about-game-and-dating-when-doing-nothing-is-the-best-option/ had out her Bumble account and said she only swipes on tall guys w/ 6 packs, and most of the guys in her convo queue did appear to have ab pics. And this girl was a bitchy, annoying 7. Makes me wonder…
> I think bars still work, though.
Yeah, I agree that they do too. I may have come across as too fatalistic in my post- you can still get great results from bars/clubs. But I also agree with your links that bars and clubs aren’t the defacto venue for really hot girls to party and get validation and hookups anymore. Most girls don’t go out to clubs looking to get laid anymore, they use online (or social circle) for that. I also think the bar in major cities is higher now than it was 15 years ago. And you need a little more than just classic 00’s game to do well with cold approach these days. But I’ve met who pull very consistently from nightgame. I’ve also gotten results from bars/clubs as well (though I only started cold approach in 2019, and haven’t done much aside from online since the pandemic).
> Great comment overall, much to think about here, I do wonder if the sexual inequality/instagram things are the biggest or among the biggest things going on here. The annoying, bitchy friend from this story https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2021/07/08/one-of-the-hard-parts-about-game-and-dating-when-doing-nothing-is-the-best-option/ had out her Bumble account and said she only swipes on tall guys w/ 6 packs, and most of the guys in her convo queue did appear to have ab pics. And this girl was a bitchy, annoying 7.
Yeah, the casual sex market is just very gender-skewed. Men probably have a higher drive for frequency and variety in sex on average, it’s much easier for men to enjoy casual sex or a ONS, the skew causes guys to work harder and girls to get picker, etc. So with tinder you end up with chubby girls getting pumped and dumped by tall guys with 6 packs. High access and liquidity plus anonymity and no social repercussions.
It really is amazing for top guys though. If you can push your SMV and game high, you can get crazy results.
Red-pillers will whine about feminism or something, but I don’t really think this is much of a factor here. Sure maybe some girls will aspire to be more masculine, independent, and even bitchy, but most girls can’t feminism their way out of their biological drives and needs. But if girls have men crawling over nails to get with them, no matter how they act, then a lot of girls will get arrogant and lose any motivation to try to appeal to guys.
But you can still find plenty of sweet, considerate, fun girls that don’t have their heads up their asses in the US. But very few of 8-10’s are like this.
Haha, I meant to comment about why game is less popular, but I think it turned into why game is becoming more difficult.
@RedGardenElixir, Redpill dad does extremely well at night game… it’s never been a specialty for me… I don’t like it much and also, once I figured out non-monogamy, most other night activities came to seem boring, cause they are.
The last ten years have seen online dating explode, but they have also seen the non-monogamy world explode, and a guy who can ride the non-monogamy wave may not care so much about the online thing, cause he’s too busy meeting women and couples, etc. The sex clubs, the sex parties, they are phone-free, so people socialize in person and don’t post their sexcapades to Instagram, gives it a much better, more wholesome vibe than clubs + bars today.
I whine about feminism at times, it is genuinely bad… but a little whine goes a long way, and, at the end of the whine, feminism has still colonized minds. But even as it colonizes minds, it is still true that chicks like cool masculine guys and guys like hot feminine chicks, https://nypost.com/2021/07/10/why-progressive-women-want-to-date-men-who-act-conservative.
Maybe the game is harder, it doesn’t seem immensely harder to me and I’ve been in it a real long time. The things chicks want are eternal, underneath the noise and fury of the online stuff. I have set myself up as counterprogramming to online, to social media, https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2017/07/09/men-game-and-social-media-strategies/, and that seems to work pretty well… I will thread conversations with bits about how Instagram and such suck, and they seem to get good traction. Girls know it’s retarded to spend four hours a day scrolling their phones, they know it’s retarded to thirst for likes from strangers… so there is some market for saying (and meaning) those sorts of things. Will this work for everyone… I don’t know. Has it worked for me? The answer seems to be yes. The best chicks I’ve had over the last 4 – 5 years have done no or very minimal social media… I don’t think that’s a coincidence.
>>Haha, I meant to comment about why game is less popular, but I think it turned into why game is becoming more difficult.
Red quest is ideally a forum + venue to have the conversations that aren’t being had elsewhere… so, if you’ve got something interesting to say, and you’re not an asshole, this is the place for you. The “not an asshole” thing is critical because there are numerous venues for people to be assholes, twitter, reddit, wherever….
One theory RQ, RPD and I have been talking about recently was that OLD has become so obviously the way that dating happens, that it has sucked all the air out of the room. In 2005, if you weren’t finding success with women, you might go to google and type in “how to get laid”, and RSD, r/redpill and all the various PUA communities would immediately welcome you in.
Initially I was arguing that it’s almost a victim of it’s own success. Everybody knows about PUA so maybe it seems less important because it’s become a part of the cultural fabric. However, I went to google trends to see the relative size of the markets for Tinder vs the manosphere and the manosphere basically doesn’t show up on the graph the minute you add Tinder to it. For younger guys who have only experienced a world where the vast majority of people fucking was via OLD, it could be that they don’t even think to ask the question, to seek out another solution. OLD seems so easy and accessible, if you go on and don’t have any success, you assume there’s no other option. You’re just not an attractive man. Rather than searching for PUA etc, you just keep swiping.
OLD may be so successful that it sucked up all the air in the room with respect to how men attract women. If you ask friends, or female friends they will ask to see your profile and immediately assume that tweaks to that will be the answer rather than even imagining a different approach. For many mega trends, even given how large people see them to be, they undervalue how powerful these trends are. This is my theory as to how we all (myself included) are seeing OLD, feminism, instagram, etc. Human brains are not designed to be able to appreciate cultural shifts of this magnitude in this short a timeframe.
I think you have the right of it in a lot of ways. Though I also think tons of younger people (not just men) have been conditioned to their safe and mediocre lives.
I was online gaming at the very beginning. Picking up chicks in AOL and Yahoo chat rooms, then myspace, then Facebook, now it’s swipe apps. It’s always been there, it’s immensely easier now that I’m older and was able to systematize it all. Back then it was a supplement when I didn’t feel like spending all night in a club, now it’s my main method.
On the other hand there’s actually a LOT of women out there that absolutely won’t do tinder/bumble, so be careful not to discount that too fast.
But I do think social media and smart phones have definitely socially retarded huge swaths of people.
Victimhood is much more en vogue today. There’s no need to push yourself in every way, when all you need to do is blame all your woes on (insert bullshit here).
People don’t want to hear the truth. That’s the truth.
I have been watching / listening to / mentoring lightly some of the young guys that I work with. And I compare my memories of my own experience. My theory is this: guys want to get laid AND guys want EVEN MORE to have a woman validate/approve of their masculine desire and emotions. All that stuff that a boy learns to hide every public moment of every day – all the secret desires, hard ons, porn collections, appreciation of feminine beauty, all of it…. He yearns for an environment where he is not shamed for his own nature. In the old days the pub, the male work space – the fields, the military…. there were plenty of spaces where ‘a man can be a man.’ Nowadays these spaces are extraordinarily few and many boys never find them.
A guy that I work with is going out with and not having sex with a woman ten years older than him. Divorce(d) with three kids. He knows he will never marry her but he is under her spell. Recently she encouraged him to actually rent a hotel room (For too much money for him to spend) and then refused to give him sex… again. What does he even like about her I ask him?
He can’t really answer that question, except to say that emotionally he really likes being able to talk to someone who is ‘grown up’ and not childish in the way of most (all?) American women. (Never mind that she is acting in the most childish manner possible.) He can talk to her in a way that he cannot with other girls. So there is an emotional intimacy that he lacks in his life. That emotional need is more powerful than his need for sex… and he is a young guy with a huge need for sex.
I remember from my own youth being attracted to a few women who were older and who interacted with me in a sort of gentle kind way; They didn’t shit test me, they acted like women – they did not hide the sexual part of their nature, and they probably acted toward me in a way that felt kind and approving in some work or social interaction. Of course young women who were my age simply didn’t do that, at least in any constant fashion. Now I understand that pretty much the only way that a young woman will communicate acceptance or approval of a guy’s sexuality is to give him her body; in sex she communicates the approval that she conceals the remainder of the day. Even today my head spins a bit watching a woman turn a switch and pivot from gazing at me with wide blinking eyes and languid kisses to a businesslike demeanor of indifference. I would say feigned indifference, but I know from experience that it is feigned at the beginning… but at the end – when she moves on – it can, in its effect, become suddenly very real.
This comment kind of blew my mind. Thanks for adding your perspective. I think there’s a lot of truth to this.
You’ve almost certainly read posts like https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2020/02/07/write-your-player-blog-its-an-advertisement-but-not-in-the-way-you-think/, but you should do a blog… this comment could be its first post… you sound like a guy w/ a lot of interesting experiences… if you’d like to write guest posts here, too, that can work.
You can trace this burgeoning desire for specifically feminine interaction in pornography and video game livestreaming. Both have evolved over the last decade to accommodate huge niches where the primary appeal isn’t taboo or entertainment derived from someone play the game itself (respectively), but watching women interact in ways considered improper within current mainstream discourse.
Within the former, recorded sex as something illicit and exciting has been superseded by a host of fetishes and kinks that highlight male-female dynamics over the act itself. The industry has trifurcated into blatant displays of dominance (BDSM, cuckoldry), nurturing (MILF), and intimacy (voyeurism, amateur) based on the starlet’s reaction. Meanwhile livestreaming has seen the rise of ASMR, “hot tub streamers”, and Vtubers whose main novelty is coyly engaging in sexual innuendos and infantilizing behavior to evoke audience engagement and sympathy. Being sexual here is less important than implicitly letting the mostly male viewership know being sexual, within TOS limits, is condoned. And the guys eat that shit up.
>> livestreaming has seen the rise of ASMR, “hot tub streamers”, and Vtubers whose main novelty is coyly engaging in sexual innuendos and infantilizing behavior to evoke audience engagement and sympathy. Being sexual here is less important than implicitly letting the mostly male viewership know being sexual, within TOS limits, is condoned. And the guys eat that shit up.
When I hear about some of this stuff I think, “Maybe if this is what my male nominal competitors are like, I might be succeeding by not doing the stupidest and most pathetic thing…”
True but to address your original post, I think male apathy concerning sex is about technology – more specifically, its ability to replicate the various facets and needs tied to sex combined with convenience and accessibility. Everything I mentioned is a vector of commodifying the male desire for positive interaction with women, offering zero upfront cost + barrier of entry while sidestepping all the pitfalls that incentivize men to drop out of dating. In the same vein, we see men adopt sports viewing and video games as their pet hobbies in lieu of real adventure and risk-taking.
As pathetic as these trends appear on paper, it’s just the collective action of economic agents responding to market demand. Traditional media, Hollywood, and Gen Z/Millennial peer groups don’t bother to fill the void so eventually something was going to come along. Cheap, shitty simulacra > the real thing when the former costs nothing to consume, provides infinite variety to chose from and is accessible 24/7.
If that’s true, one implication is that the guys who really try are more likely to succeed, because so many competitors are not trying.
The video game / pr0n / sports traps seem like really poor local maximums to me, but maybe too few guys have the energy or wherewithal to exit those local maximums and try for the next hill.
“If that’s true, one implication is that the guys who really try are more likely to succeed, because so many competitors are not trying.”
True, but this has always been the case: men who pursue and refine Game are a tiny minority. Increased odds of success from the absence of competition may be negligible. The same technology enables women to arrogate more attention and validation from strangers as well as raising their aggregate floor of attraction.
“The video game / pr0n / sports traps seem like really poor local maximums to me, but maybe too few guys have the energy or wherewithal to exit those local maximums and try for the next hill.”
Hypothetically, we’re seeing a “kinky labor supply” phenomenon with two corollary trends. The minimum threshold to motivate a man off his ass for sex is climbing due to appealing substitutes; simultaneously, the acceptable cutoff for a woman’s standards in the dating market is rising. So even if there’s a better chance of escaping the local maximum, the prerequisite investment/risk is perceived as too high or unattainable as opposed to alternatives.
We may simply be incorrectly assuming that all guys want to get laid as much we do. Not everyone is as sex-obsessed as guys that visit these kinds of blogs regularly. And even if they start off as sex-hungry animals, they may not remain that way. I’ll give an example of a guy that starts his journey in GAME.
Jason is 18. He is a virgin due to the shitty environment he grew up in and the lack of a strong masculine figure in his life. He is an 8/10, 6 feet tall, pretty fit, etc. He is not exactly a GigaChad, but he will have no problem getting laid. Jason is hungry for pussy and thanks to the internet he slowly figures out what he needs to do to get laid.
After a bit of trial and error, he eventually picks up a girl, brings her back to his apartment and actually does the deed. He can’t believe it worked. He is ecstatic. He feels like an entire new world of endless possibilities has opened up to him. He is not the same man he was just a mere 24 hours ago. He is no longer a virgin! He gets a few more fucks out of this girl over the course of a few weeks before things fall apart and they part ways. No biggie! No regrets! It was good while it lasted. He is not the same man he was the night he lost his virginity. He has become way more confident and experienced.
Jason continues working on his game and a month later he does it again with a different girl. He is now ever increasingly confident and his game reflects this new attitude. He is not the same man he was a month ago.
Jason continues working on himself and his game and next month he scores another chick! He is not the same man he was a month ago or 2 months ago. Hell, 3 months ago he was a virgin, sitting in his dark bedroom, staring at a computer screen at 1 in the morning, reading about how to get laid.
It has now been six months since Jason learned about game from TRP and various blogs and he is a changed man. He has banged 6 different chicks already. He is not the same man he was a month ago, or 2 months ago, or 3 months ago or 4 months ago. He feels accomplished and happy. But is this it? Is there anything more to life? Is this all there is to women he asks himself? What if he wants something deeper? Perhaps a genuine friend and lover? Perhaps a girlfriend? Perhaps a woman he can fall in “love” with, marry, and having a little boy and a little girl with?
The point of my little story is that most guys may start off as sex crazed animals wanting to FUCK. But, this does not last. As the Self moves through the world it undergoes various transformations. By the time a guy has banged 5 different chicks, he may not be the same sex crazed fucker he started off as 1 year ago. For some guys this number maybe 1 or 2 chicks. For other guys this number may be 10 chicks and for another guy this number may be 20 chicks. Most guys do not have the intellectual, psychological, or sexual potential to continue this indefinitely. And if they do happen to have the potential they may not have the will and inclination to pursue such a thing indefinitely. The point is most guys are not hardcore enough to continue on the warpath of slaying pussy after pussy like some kind of demigod. They get into LTRs. They pursue other interests and hobbies.
The only guys in my experience that ruthlessly fuck bitches tend to be very psychopathic, for better or for worse.
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Yes, this makes sense to me. My sexual experiences are mostly paid for, and even if it is obviously not the same, the novelty factor does wear off.
In the end it is mostly a cost-benefit analysis, done unwittingly in your head… getting laid regurlarly requires a number of things (reasonable income, physical fitness, dressing style, cool behaviour, going out…) which for some men are I guess natural but for many others, particularly introverts, not so much.
It seems to me that the real answer is fear. The rise of Cancel Culture and the corruption of the Me Too movement has created a era where people can be ostracized for sport, you see this often among people in the Youtube/Twitch streamer/Vtuber community. People in these circles must always been on, ready to counter baseless threads against them on social media and an ever-present hateful element on all platforms trying to cancel them or at least spread the hate through rumor. And these aren’t wildly talent people, these are average humans and we see the same dynamics played out with less publicity in increasingly more social spheres.
Game has always been a balancing act between how much men (on average) want to get laid and how much men do not want to be rejected. The consequences of rejection have grown more severe, and the diffusion of red pill truths into the popular subconscious (along with the constant articles on unwitting men being Aziz Ansari’ed, and the increase in porn consumption/addiction, and the cosmic background radiation of stress today from the bleakness of our society’s future ) has eroded the perception of the benefits of getting laid. Rejection has also become more constant, the earliest days of game saw a society where people wanted connection and where it was considered to be part of a friendly personality to have a polite conversation with a stranger. I would argue that by today’s standards, the expected/taught reaction to an unexpected intrusion into one’s day is discomfort and hostility. Couple this with the clout a person (but usually a woman, through sympathy) can get from labelling someone a creep, harasser, abuser, problematic- and game stops looking like a numbers game and starts looking like russian roulette.
I believe what you are left with is a hormone driven atmosphere of malcontent among men less than one standard deviation above the mean all the way down to three standard deviations below the mean (in terms of the sum of all relevant measures of overall life quality.) All these men want to be having sex, but fear the risk more than they dislike denying themselves. Add on top of that the rising difficulty from factors that you yourself and the other esteem commenters have mentioned- and you get a losing situation and a growing social unrest.
Good game is usually socially calibrated and deniable. “What, I said hi to her?” “She seems cutely flustered, so I asked for her number, see if we should hang out.” I think there’s a dearth of basic social skills, combined with an excess of cowardice. Yes, yes, cancel culture, “me too,” all that stuff, it doesn’t affect the lives of 99.99% of men. A lot of guys don’t want to get laid badly enough. Personally I think learning “getting laid” skills is better than wasting one’s life on video games, weed, social media, pr0n, and TV.
Yes, women have labeled me a creep, a whatever, if they’re not into it, but that’s pretty rare. Read the girl, if she’s sending clear negative signals, back off, find another girl. Social skills are practice. Practice doesn’t happen on your phone, in front of your TV, etc.
“I can’t do it” says guys whose grandfathers stormed the beaches of Normandy or held the frozen Chosin.
You did link to an article showing the example of a guy who saw combat who saw day-gaming as harder than USMC bootcamp.
Here’s some truth for you: if only men who instinctively understand game reproduce, then you’ll lose all your engineers, hard science researchers, and mathematicians in a generation. If you want to live in a society as functional as Zimbabwe, continue to ignore the obvious.
1. The juice (divorce, alimony, child support, taxes, career instability due to workplace diversity mandates) isn’t worth the squeeze (PUA, career). Any woman at any time can ruin you on a whim; only evasion can protect you.
2. Personality is inflexible after a certain point. Game attracts hot sluts who burn me socially after the facade inevitably drops, and it turns away chicks more compatible with me.
3. Asia, Hispanic Americas, and Africa are easy mode compared to ultra nightmare mode in USA & Europe. Why make the effort so you can be robbed by a judge later, when you can just leave?