Game lessons and thoughts during an MDMA roll

Last weekend, I rolled pretty hard with a woman and spent some time wandering a nearby strip of bars, where we chatted with and encouraged a lot of strangers… MDMA can make a person feel intensely social, and we felt a lot of that energy and chose to express it by going out. We also dressed differently than most people, closer to something like this and far from the typical street clothes, dresses, or slacks and collared shirts most people wore. I realized that we were peacocking: being shiny and different, in a way that worked. My companion got most of the attention, which is fine and expected, it’s a shame she’s not bisexual. A bisexual wingwoman in that environment would have killed. Even without being bi, she create and we engendered a lot of positive feelings… we felt at one with the human species, a sense that is hard to cultivate in everyday life. And we felt at one with each other.

Trying to describe the mental state an MDMA roll engenders is impossible… those of you who’ve experienced it will be nodding along with the descriptions above, those of you who haven’t will probably be rolling your eyes. A well-done molly roll, if it’s done with people who like each other in the first place, is a powerful bonding agent, of a sort I didn’t realize when I was younger. During this roll, I felt more of that. Alcohol is common, but it sucks by comparison. Learning MDMA is like becoming part of a secret society.

In Integrating smart drugs, like MDMA (molly), smartly, I talked about the bizarre dearth of MDMA and psychedelic discussion among the larger game community. I think Bodi mentions taking mushrooms in one of his game books, and the peak spiritual journey the mushrooms facilitated. Most guys interested in cold approach never get started doing cold approach, and most who do give up quickly, and most drunk guys in bars are too drunk to function effectively. MDMA, though, opens a person up to being more social and having more social experiences, and I wonder if facilitating an MDMA weekend would be a useful means of coaching, and of unlocking a person’s potential. I encouraged Red Pill Dad to offer an “Ultimate Package” in which he’d fly out, do a debrief, do a Friday night round of night game, do a Saturday MDMA-facilitated experience, and then a Sunday re-integration session: that might help a lot of guys who can’t get started, who feel the spotlight effect, etc. It’s using MDMA almost as a social therapy, to break patterns and practices that may not be optimal. Children are all ove the place, in a way that would be disastrously dysfunctional in an adult. Adults, though, can be too familiar with the everyday world, and with strategies to get through it and make sense of it. MDMA at its best can shake up those strategies, and those anxieties. Combine it with a guy trying to learn game, but having trouble getting started at cold approach, could be very powerful. Have any guys tried this? If so, I’d like to hear about it.

Basically, I was more doing the “shaman bro” style (more here) and less of the “finance bro” or “rich guy” or “cool business casual” sorts of looks. That might be where the world is headed. Guys who tried to do Don Draper in 1970 mostly failed, I suspect. Guys who tried to do hippie in 1959 mostly failed, I suspect (styles obviously change and someone has to be the leader… some guys decided to start wearing long hair early in the ’60s, and some women decided not to wear bras and to have a lot of sex, in order for the society to change as others copy them). Style & peacocking count.

We didn’t set out to pick up girls, and, unfortunately… the woman I was with is pretty straight (she has other compensating attributes), but I think we could have. Which is easy to say, when it’s not put to the test. No proof of work, here. Girls and groups kept encouraging us to join them in the bars, but we didn’t really want to: the bars were too loud, we didn’t want to drink, and we were most focused on each other, not the bar experience. We had a few other tricks, too, that could count as peacocking, and contact me directly if you want to try this and are curious about those other tricks.

Author: The Red Quest

How can we live and be in society?

14 thoughts on “Game lessons and thoughts during an MDMA roll”

  1. I might be an outlier, but thought it’s worthwhile for someone reading this: I had the absolute best experiences of meeting new women while I was on LSD. and not always in a party setting Either, a couple times it was really random wandering on the street or doing some chores in the city and just chatting people up. It is the best for pickup for me and I love to meet women when I’m on LSD. It seems to accentuate my natural vibe of an extroverted, talkative, “lover” type guy and also kills anxiety and self-doubt.

    I’ve tried several hundreds of drugs (I’m extreme in this) and I found LSD to be *the* best for me. I don’t find MDMA or even MDMA-esque drugs do this for me.

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    1. Interesting that you had success meeting women on it… that wouldn’t be my first guess… there is an extreme dearth of guys writing about psychedelics + game + life…

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  2. I loved my experience and/or era with MDMA. I ended up abusing it; always wanting to get back into that secret society. But it did help with my worldview, women and sex. I was a beast on M; my endurance and intimacy was so intense I became irresponsible at times and of course learned the hard way. In hindsight, it really helped with my confidence and to see society in an idealistic lens.

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    1. That’s a shame, about the abuse… you must have burned out… I’d hate to burn out…

      it really helped with my confidence and to see society in an idealistic lens.

      Yes, I have heard other guys testify the same.

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  3. Interesting topic. I’ve had one mild experience with LSD when I was 20, and I can honestly say it has permanently changed my personality, allowing me to integrate a layer of surprise and enthusiasm for the world that I still draw from time to time. I remember talking to a woman, and it’s true that it completely kills anxiety and spotlight effects. You have to much to concentrate on than your own negative self thoughts.

    I really want to experience MDMA, as I’ve read many accounts on how it works for depression and after years of working from a laptop, especially after covid, it’s exactly the kind of connectedness I want to explore.

    The article on the Shaman bro had me laugh out loud, I’ve met a guy like that a few months back and he had girls eating out of his palm..
    I agree that now that everyone works remotely the Tech bro type lost its coolness edge.
    Might as well buy a van and start giving out oily chakra straightening massages to girls.

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    1. Awesome, it sounds like you should have more LSD experiences, and try MDMA, in the right setting… that guy, Asleep Thinking, who wrote the Shaman Bro article, pretty much all of his stuff is interesting, and the best is fantastic.

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  4. Hmmm.

    I have partied. A lot. For over 30 years. A lot, a lot. Very little “speedy” highs, but lotsa experience with psychedelics. And with “E.”

    Last time I did Molly, “I was not myself” for 5 days after. Mild depression (“down” state). Very emotional. I was a serious skateboarder at that time, and I had “no connection to the board” for 5 days. That was long hangover, too long. Definitely not worth it.

    It wasn’t terrible… But I knew I would never do it again. I am not even vaguely tempted.

    I see some upside to mushrooms. I am a fan.

    But I don’t connect drugs and girls. I think that is mostly a very big mistake.

    Guys that haven’t built themselves up, haven’t faced approaching/rejection/building tension SOBER, imagine that drugs will help… Do the work. Do it sober. That is the path to girls.

    In general, I don’t believe drugs will make you better with women. When everyone is wasted, yes, people “fall down together,” hook up, some rels come out if that… But mostly nothing happens, except chasing a “higher” exp that “might make it happen” and then… Serious hangovers. Mistakes. Accidents. Incredible wasted time/resources.

    Drugs are especially dangerous (seductive) as they promise to bring girls. In my circle (and I was a raver, Burning Man guy, etc, for an incredibly long time)… Drugs bring girls that like drugs. That is a nightmare. And those girls are messy, have other terrible habits, they are not the girls you want in your life.

    There are no shortcuts in life. Particularly with girls. Girls like “solid,” and drugs will mostly take you into “sketchy” and away from solid. If people can’t totally count on you, if you’re not completely reliable and put together… Drugs will predictably make you even less so.

    What drugs are good for, is “adding openness.” If you’re very put together, if your “room is clean,” experimenting with “being opened” might be a good thing. Treat each time like a religious ceremony and you’ll give it the respect it deserves.

    I say all this, with a serious history of “religious ceremonies.” Weed almost every day for 30 years – late in the day, often only before bed, usually alone, and it DOES open me up (art, dancing, thinking). I drink, even now, a little, almost every day – it opens me up. 1 or 2 drinks is great. Beyond that the numbness overpowers the openness.

    And I have had periods of my life where I would do mushrooms – specifically to open me up. To howl at the moon. Several times a year. Fantastic experiences. I have done them alone, but mostly at festivals, with thousands of people… And yet, trying to keep the usage to a “religious” level of respect. This stuff is “beyond powerful.”

    At all those parties (and I have been to absolute ragers, unbelieve nights with “hardcore” people, so many nights). I look the part. I get a lot of attention…and it was never about girls.

    In the time I have been known in this community, I would have a Friday date w/ a girl, she’d help me pack in the morning, I’d leave her, head out to a festival by myself to go “lose it.” Did this many times.

    Even as I became very focused on being a player. There were girls… I have bonded and “lost it” with girls, mostly strangers, mostly briefly, often ++ wild moments… But those times were about the journey, not any illusions of it making me better at Game.

    It’s not like that. Game is “full time” being a solid man (if you want quality girls). Drugs are about fucking around. The two lifestyles are barely compatible at all.

    Life is hard. Get your shit together first… Always. But if you have that done, and you want to “dance with the devil,” go have a trip. Be very respectful about what you’re doing. Think of it as 2-3 day affair. Give yourself a very safe space before/during/after. Allow 2+ days for your head to come back together. I am not “cool” after a trip. I am “hungover” and want to slowly come back up to full speed. I need sleep, clean living, some exercise.

    But when I do it right – I am blown away. So many unbelievable times… None of it was about Game. Zero.

    But I come back, bring some of that openness back with me, some of that appreciation, some of that experience in other words” and I am no worse for wear. It is part of who I am.

    Work first, play later. Drugs will NOT make you better with women (likely make you more shakey, less sure, worse). But if you want a dose of “seeing things from a new angle,” a little “opening” might bring you there.

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    1. Psychedelics (including MDMA, for this purpose) aren’t a panacea but can help guys with a lot of challenges, some examples, https://maps.org/research.

      MDMA is not a magic bullet. But it can help guys who are too in their heads, who are anxious (socially or otherwise), etc. It can also help openness and connection, among people (not just chicks, although definitely chicks).

      So I would emphasize, “There are no shortcuts in life.”

      But, also many of us, including me, until pretty recently, last ~5 years, think/thought drugs are automatically debilitating, extremely dangerous, etc. But they can be like the magic elixirs or objects from fairytales, where, used correctly, they are life enhancing and affirming, and used poorly, they destroy.

      Dosage and environment matter as well.

      I wonder if the “Shaman Bro” linked in main text is going to supersede the club bro.

      Some chicks, especially young hot party chicks, have little personality and use drink or other drugs (alcohol is just another drug, and one more dangerous than classical psychedelics, and one that’s been legal longer in the US and Europe) to get themselves out of their shells or baseline personalities, or to open a gate to who they are and who is really in there. W/o that gate, they remain closed off in their fortress. If you don’t want those girls… that’s fine… they’ve not been a main focus for me… but I’m interested too in that part of the game, and it’s a part little discussed online, from what I’ve seen.

      I’ve not gotten MDMA hangovers and no one I’ve rolled with has, which is to me great… if you do get them… then it might not be for you… or only in lower doses and w/ careful supplementation.

      >>”Work first, play later. Drugs will NOT make you better with women (likely make you more shakey, less sure, worse). But if you want a dose of “seeing things from a new angle,” a little “opening” might bring you there”

      If a guy is anxious, has trouble being sufficiently open, etc., and has an experience w/o these things… they may make him better, over the long term. But yes, definitely, to the “no magic bullet” point.

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  5. An ongoing theme for me when I talk about Game (or life in general) is TYPES. With great respect for you TRQ, I will make some comments about how I interpret this post for you, as your TYPE.

    > until pretty recently, last ~5 years, think/thought drugs are automatically debilitating, extremely dangerous

    In general (=”for most types”) THIS ^ is a safe bet. Assume drugs are debilitating, that nothing good will come from them… and you’ll be better off.

    As for TYPES: You, TRQ, are a very, very smart guy. Exceptionally so. Arguably successful. You have a solid career. You get your shit done. You can lead. You’re very motivated. For YOUR TYPE, drugs can offer some “seasoning” on an already healthy life. For guys reading this, they should ask themselves how “solid” they are. Are they “TRQ solid? ” No? (Most guys will not be.) Then this post might not apply for their TYPE.

    TYPES: I have said this to you before, but I would imagine you score very high in the Big Five trait “openness.” And it’s an interesting thing about you, that you are so “open” and so successful/solid at the same time. Successful/solid tends to be more “conscientiousness,” with a more strict, “tight” lifestyle. I bet you score high in both traits. I also score high in both. I am very put together, and yet… I have produced a lot of work as an artist, have had a lot of wild adventures, and I’m still having them, living outside proscribed boundaries for how I am supposed to live (this is a sign of my “openness”).

    I think for you to even suggest this line of pursuit for guys, is a sign of your “openness.” That you are “open” to the idea that this could apply to types in a broad sense. Your sex club lifestyle is pure openness. The fact that you’re good at it, that you lead, that you wrote/updated a book about it, that you can articulate it all so well… is a signs of your conscientiousness.

    I will argue that MOST guys in Game, draw their success from classic themes like “alpha” and “leaderships” and “masculinity.” That is where MOST of the success in Game comes from. The “openness” tends to trend more in “Romance Artists” (and I am into a lot of that myself). But most guys won’t find success by being “open.” They will find success by aligning with structure, proving structure in their own lives, providing structure for girls (and other men). This is classic “attractive male” stuff.

    Drugs… particularly the “heady” drugs, will “expand” you, open you, and tend to fuck with “structure” in your life. Be careful that you don’t undermine your own “solidity.”

    Openness and “being less certain” are closely related. Now compare “being less certain” to “being confident” and you might see why “making yourself more wobbly” via drugs will take MOST TYPES of men in the wrong direction. Women don’t like “wobbly” men. They don’t want guys that are “less certain.” Certainty is HUGE, and it’s hard to be certain in an altered state.

    To each his own. I have (and probably will) fool around with some “experiences.” But I have no illusions about what made me better with Game… and it was all the traditional stuff.

    > MDMA is not a magic bullet. But it can help guys who are too in their heads, who are anxious (socially or otherwise), etc. It can also help openness and connection, among people

    Here I would present a scenario:
    — A guy mostly is not “good” with girls
    — He has a hot “molly” trip, “lets go,” talks to more girls that night than in a typical year
    — Maybe he makes out with some girl…

    So now what? Next weekend, more molly? What if he gets a number, does he need any drugs to text her in a solid say? How about the first date? What about getting her back to his place? Escalating? Drugs for all that? For the next morning with her too?

    At some point you rely on who you really are, stark naked, dead sober. I recommend guys work on that. That is “most of the time.”

    It’s not even vaguely sustainable to use drugs to “get you there.” Which makes it even more “problematic” if it “works” for the night. Because if he doesn’t “change permanently” (and he won’t), next weekend he is very, very tempted to do molly again. And if he doesn’t have a GF, what about the next night? More molly?

    We’re not talking about cocaine here, but this is a big part of the “trap” of coke for so many guys. They “feel better” and “more uninhibited” on coke. So… they talk to more girls. And then what? Coke makes them feel more “on” so they do more coke. And… coke and socializing are the same thing… and none of that is Game and none of that is necessary.

    I would point to Tyler/Julien from RSD (and so many players) that did ALL THEIR GAME DEAD SOBER. 100% sober.
    And that was bars and clubs, where not having a drink is a little “unusual.” But they built real game.

    You can get good at talking to girls, using nothing more than your interest in them and some training. That is not easy, but it’s reliable, sustainable, and will not wreck your life or make you a tweaky weirdo (and lotsa guys on drugs become “uninhibited” tweaky weirdos – just because you feel comfortable, doesn’t mean you’re cool).

    I got much, much better at Game when I STOPPED going out to try to “drink my way” into something fun, I got a good night sleep, and did daygame approaches, totally sober, lots of them… and I totally took off in Game. Wholesome. Totally successful. Lifechanging – and drug free (in terms of Game). I still partied, with friends, but I never tried to use drugs as a crutch to help me limp into “being cooler.” Limping around on drugs… can be a eye-popping experience, but I argue it’s not cool.

    But to each his own. I have seen it all on the “pickup and Game” side. So many guys. I know what works. Drugs are not a part of the formula, at all. They can coexist with Game (certainly), but they are not the same thing.

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    1. Both of these comments are thought provoking. I think for most of the people most of the time I agree with everything you’re saying. I think your focus on types is excellent. A lot of advice is too broad, and what I like about RQ’s blog is he’s generally speaking to those who are already at a base level of competency. How to you achieve growth past the 101 phase, achieve peak experiences, see the best of what life(women) has to offer? I think once you have your shit together, experimenting with MDMA in particular really opens your eyes, mind and heart. You generally spoke about drugs in a binary sense in your posts and with broad strokes I agree. But let’s drill down. MDMA is not like anything else. It allows one to feel a sense of love and connectedness most humans never experience. Psychedelics in particular allow one to experience the world with a different brain state. This is incredibly powerful, and in contrast to a near death experience, the results don’t fade. As a result, you don’t have to keep taking MDMA to have it’s profound lessons change your life. Not everyone benefits from their openness (in a big 5 sense) growing, but many people will again with the right context. Therapy is fixated on talking your way to a new you. Psychedelics let you try on a new you. Once you’ve experienced that you, you don’t have to imagine what it would be like to feel different. Most people facing death are cured of their fear of death via 1 dose of psilocybin in studies.
      https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/psilocybin-a-journey-beyond-the-fear-of-death/

      Now for most men being great with women is even scarier than death, but imagine what drugs like MDMA and psilocybin could do for how they think about it. It might allow one to reach a new plane of existence.

      For varsity level men, these compounds allow exploration of the mind and body that can take one to places most men never see.

      Glad to see you back here and appreciate the comments as always.

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    2. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3

      >>Treatment-emergent adverse events (TEAEs, adverse events that occurred during the treatment period from the first experimental session to the last integration session) that were more prevalent in the MDMA study arm were typically transient, mild to moderate in severity, and included muscle tightness, decreased appetite, nausea, hyperhidrosis and feeling cold (Supplementary Table 3). Importantly, no increase in adverse events related to suicidality was observed in the MDMA group. A transient increase in vital signs (systolic and diastolic blood pressure and heart rate) was observed in the MDMA group (Supplementary Table 4). Two participants in the MDMA group had a transient increase in body temperature to 38.1 °C: one had an increase after the second MDMA session, and one had an increase after the second and third MDMA sessions.

      And this is in part treatment _for_ PTSD and depression. And those studies are listed in the MAPS link. They are also working with a high-risk population, for sure. And their dosages are in the 80-120mg range.

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20008198.2020.1840123

      >>All couples completed the protocol, and there were no serious adverse events. As documented in the supplementary tables, the most common reactions following MDMA sessions in patients and partners were diminished appetite, anxiety, headache, and jaw tightness.

      Caveats include 1. these are likely lower-than-party doses. 2. they are taking actual MDMA. 3. they are likely well-hydrated.

      So… I would say: know your dose, start small, take long (months) breaks between rolls. Do people do that in party settings? Often, not. Press pills (“pressies”, sometimes) are poor choices, cause you don’t know true dosage. Start at 110mg, see what happens from there. Test whatever you think you’re going to ingest, before you ingest it.

      I don’t know anyone who’s had serious comedowns as described here, though I am sure they are out there. I also don’t know anyone (or know anyone well, more accurately) who is doing it every weekend.

      I think I’ve become _more_ open since learning about psychedelics… in that respect I think there’s been some permanent/semi-permanent shift.

      >>So now what? Next weekend, more molly? What if he gets a number, does he need any drugs to text her in a solid say? How about the first date? What about getting her back to his place? Escalating? Drugs for all that? For the next morning with her too?

      I’d say that’s where the integration part comes in: can he integrate that experience into the rest of his life? Can he make permanent changes based on it, or at least can he help himself move from where he is to somewhere he’d like to be? Psychedelics are being used therapeutically because they can help change patterns, get people unstuck, and feel/see the world differently. But the experience often depends on the structure around it.

      Game coaching can be described as a kind of therapy, albeit active. I think a lot of guys doing therapy should also be lifting and doing physical stuff, and/or fixing their diet as well. “Just talk” might work for some stuff… but it doesn’t seem to for most.

      FWIW I’ve never been a coke guy.

      This topic also interests me because a lot of young hot girls have _no_ personality. No interests. Very little of substance. Yet they hook up. How? Drugs (alcohol is a drug). Now… this type of girl hasn’t been my main target… but she’s out there, I’ve rarely gotten much traction with her, and I think that’s because I’ve not been the party/drug guy. When I was young, I’d see who she hooked up with, and how she did it… and it wasn’t me, for the most part (some exceptions).

      The extent to which some girls lack any personality or interests at all… is kind of astounding. When I was younger, I often thought there was something inside them, that I wasn’t seeing on the surface. Eventually I realized that sometimes, what you see is what you get.

      If there is a universe of hot chicks out there I’ve not banged, I think about it, and why…

      >>You can get good at talking to girls, using nothing more than your interest in them and some training

      You can, of course. You can get over depression or ptsd using nothing more than your interest and some training. You can concentrate without drinking coffee or tea… yet many people do.

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  6. > I’ve not gotten MDMA hangovers

    One more time here: I would caution guys to do a least a little bit of research on molly (what we used to call ecstacy). It was ALWAYS associate with depression. “Suicide Tuesday” was what people felt after a big weekend. Party hard. Sleep a lot on Sunday. Have some drinks to “take the edge off.” Maybe Monday was a “throwaway” day, you didn’t expect to feel great (unless you were drinking hard, or doing other things). And then Tuesday…

    Tuesday was the day when it was obvious you felt terrible. You were “bottomed out.” And maybe you’d have some people over to pop some pills mid-week, but mostly not. So you made it thru the week before anther fun weekend. Super high for “four hours” – some chill time – then depressed for a few days. YMMV, but… look around and see if that is common. From my experience, it is.

    In general, anything that makes you “euphoric” will balance out later with “dread.” The “happy drugs” have nasty comedowns. Less “happy” drugs (pot/mushrooms) may have a comedown, but it is not the counter-acting “low” of depression. I would not put MDMA and mushrooms in the same category (even though I would be very careful with both).

    I saw soooo many people go straight from MDMA to anti-depressants. Party kids that became pharma kids. No joke. Part of that is just a mindset of “better living thru chemistry.” And part of that was “recovery” from too much dope.

    Guys can poke around on the internet… this is not a mystery for most people in the scene. I never went hard, so I never burned out… I was around for a long time (across a few scenes)… and I saw wave after wave of people bottom out. The rumors… are mostly true. 6 AM is mostly a very ugly time in that scene.

    There are exceptions. I have had a lot of fun. And I took my “trips” very seriously, basically every single time. If I had a hangover, it was mostly expected… “payment” for a magical night.

    To each his own. Be safe out there.

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