Xbtusd tackles a perennial topic, coming at it from a different angle: should the guy pay on dates?
I have a distinct memory from high school, of a girl I was interested in, explaining how attractive women procure alcohol: she said they flirt with older guys who have fake IDs, giving the older guys the impression a hookup might be available, and then leverage that relationship to get alcohol. I was furious when I learned this, but eventually asked the girls to ask the guys to buy me alcohol without telling the dudes it was for another dude. Today we would call those dudes “simps,” but back then pretty much everyone was a simp. Dudes with cars would DD (“designated driver”) for carloads of women ferrying them around from party to party and back to their houses all over town. Often, these dudes didn’t even think they could hook up with the girls, they just wanted to be needed by attractive women for something. To feel validated as a human and potential sexual option. To feel seen.
That experience left a strong emotional mark on me at a formative age, and I vowed I’d never be like those pathetic losers. In many ways that early experience served me, since they taught me to always avoid situations where you are giving away value and getting nothing. In other ways I’ve hewed too strongly to this principle, for fear of the humiliation I associate with finding out I’ve been manipulated and turned into a simp.
In college, I was at a school where fraternities dominated the social scene. I joined one of the most prominent frats and had the time of my life running the school’s social life. Frats were an interesting social element because we simped for women, but always made sure it was transactional. We spent tons of money throwing amazing parties, providing free alcohol to women, and, in exchange, the pussy flowed freely. Most guys wish they had the opportunity to “pay,” however indirectly, for pussy in the way we did. And yet, there were still nuances to the game. A rival fraternity that some friends were in, took the simping way too far. They shamelessly catered to women, playing whatever “gay” song of the day was on the top of all the freshman girls’ iPods at dance parties, and preparing non-beer drinks (unheard of) to get all the young girls who didn’t drink beer yet, drunk. The more they swallowed their pride and gave the women what they wanted, the more their penises were swallowed by the youngest and hottest girls. And yet, no girl who was not a freshman would be seen dead there, even if that’s where she had spent the majority of her freshman year.
There’s clearly some line where simping works, in the sense of “doing things for women,” but when you go too far, you lower your value, and women lose respect for you. Smart guys find that line. Where does courtesy end, and simping begin? Which brings me to my question: to pay or not to pay for women on dates? I’ve always been of the opinion that if the woman wants to split, I split, and, if not, I assume I’ll pay: but I never insist and I don’t give them any pushback.
My girlfriend went on a first date with a guy last week, and one of the things she remarked on was that while she was in the bathroom he paid the bill without her knowing. When he was ready to go he was like, “let’s get out of here,” and when she inquired about the bill he cooly remarked that he’d already taken care of it. Smooth. She considers herself a feminist, and has always insisted on paying half on dates, and she historically has gone on a lot of dates. I’ve been questioning her reasoning, now that we’re in a relationship: why not let the guy pay?
She told me she found it incredibly sexy that he paid for her, and it felt to her similar to how she’s envisioned a sex worker feels. The man desires her so much that he wants to pay for access to her body. She used the term, “worships my body.”
On her second date with this guy he invited her to his place and offered to pay for her car home because he lives quite a ways away, and she’d be coming home late. Again, she was incredibly turned on by this arrangement and said, “fuck feminism, this is so hot.”
Quite a shift, and an intriguing one.
What’s the difference between simping, and fulfilling a masculine script?
Guys online, hearing his story, might call him a simp. I’d call him successful.
Note: For context he is 18 years older than her so he is fulfilling a more older gentleman script which might be experienced differently if they were a similar age.
Red Quest here. I think it’s generally wise to pay for early dates, unless she absolutely insists on splitting, or unless you’ve had a miserable date and don’t want to see her again anyway. Protecting value is important, but not at the expense of masculine leadership and identity… though I’ve probably flip-flopped on this issue, depending on mood and recent experiences.
This also seems like an area where girls who are asked, by friends or when sober, will say, “I am a feminist and want to pay half on dates.” When girls are out with a man they’re attracted to, their feminine sides are more assertive, and they’ll like the man behaving like a man, so she can behave like a woman. It’s not what the girl says, it’s what she does… and who she does.
I’ve slept with annoying “feminist” girls who will make dumb claims like “there are no differences between men and women.” If girls make those kinds of claims, I ignore them, or steer the conversation in different directions… my goal is to f**k, not to have political arguments.
After this was published, I read “The Woman Crushing on the Guy From Her Mutual-Aid Group,” which includes the line, “Noah doesn’t buy my Uber home and I’m bitter.” It’s a common mistake to underestimate women’s pettiness and entitlement.
3 thoughts on “Paying for women (no, not that way: on dates)”
I think a lot of knowing where to “draw the line” of paying comes from your intent, which women are very sensitive to. If you’re paying because you’re just living the life you want to live, and that life requires spending money in a certain way, that’s fine. If you’re paying because you want to impress someone, you’re doing it wrong. You won’t be congruent and women will pick up on that.
I went through a phase of a few years where I was throwing a lot of dinner parties in my flat. I had a couple of girl friends (just friend who were girls, not girlfriends) who were good at cooking. We’d go to the supermarket on Saturday afternoon, buy all the food and alcohol for the party, the girls would spend the afternoon prepping and cooking while I worked, and then when everyone arrived for dinner we’d have great fun on conversation. Most of these parties ended up getting crazy, with people dancing on the chairs and stuff.
Was it “beta” because I picked up the bill for this all? I don’t think so: because I was living the life that I wanted. It’s true that I met a lot of women through my social circle doing this. I also met a lot of cool men. I wasn’t doing anything to impress anyone except myself. The cost wasn’t a significant part of my income, so I didn’t care about the cost.
But I’ve also had the opposite experience: before I had some confidence and game in my 20s and early 30s I would take a girl out to dinner somewhere expensive to try impress her. Obviously, this tactic results in failure.
If you’re an older guy dating younger women, some of the game rules change. I make a 99% percentile level of income, so I enjoy fine things. Good food, upscale hotels. I’d look like a loser by proposing to split a restaurant check with a girl. When I invite a girl to go to the Greek islands for a week and we stay the whole time in five-star resorts, I’m just doing the same thing I would be doing if I were travelling alone. (I’m in my late 40s and my girlfriend in her early 20s.) I’m inviting her into my frame and my life and my adventure, not doing something centered around her expectations.
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Just like taking out a customer to dinner, there’s a point where paying for it is no big deal versus creating a conflict of interest that can bring up a host of unwanted problems. One girl I knew talked about how much pressure she felt, in a bad way, when a guy took her out to an ultra-fancy dinner that cost about a thousand dollars.
My default is to just pay the bill and let her chip in if she brings it up, I’m likely making 3 times as much as a random girl I’m dating anyway, and don’t take girls out to places extravagant enough for me to get sticker shock over a meal.
These guys who balk at paying need either need to get a grip, or re-assess where you’re taking dates.
I will admit to balking at paying for drinks to girls I cold approach during night game…. when I look back, I think I held that anti-simp attitude too strongly, particularly since it got me nowhere, versus risking a few bucks on a maybe-girl for a chance she’ll hook.