“Tone” and “teasing” are hard to nail

I was reading some of Juggler’s book, which, like BradP’s, is very good, but as I was reading it I kept thinking about how hard things like tone and teasing are to nail. So many little things comprise “tone”… micro-expressions, micro-aspects of body language, subtle parts of the voice’s timbre… all these things matter, and should be put together effectively, for a guy to succeed. The number of romantically ineffective guys out there shows that this isn’t happening, despite the knowledge of how to make it happen being widely available. Juggler says, “I used to smile wrong. I would spot an attractive woman, make eye contact with her and then smile full-tilt. My expression jumped from dour to grinning in a split second. This came across as forced and awkward and kept me celibate for years.” I doubt it was only the smile that kept Juggler “celibate for years,” but I’m sure it contributed… people, particularly women, are highly attuned to interpersonal vibe, and highly attuned to people whose vibes are “off” somehow, as many guys’s are… we get many years of schooling in math, reading, etc., and almost no formal schooling in how to interact with other people.

The challenge for many guys reading Juggler’s book, and many other books, is learning how to do tone and teasing well… I don’t know how to describe doing those things well, but I know I did them poorly early on. There are ways to improve, things like coaching, improv classes, speech clubs, etc…. but, I think deciding to consciously work on them is an important first step, and one that most guys never take. I’ve seen stories online about guys who adapt pickup material and see it fail spectacularly. Many women also don’t know how to handle an initial conversation effectively… “But experience has taught him that a woman who is being approached by a strange man does not act natural. She feels suddenly ‘on stage’ and self-conscious. She worries about what her friends at the next table think. She remembers the last guy who approached her. She feels nostalgic for her ex-boyfriend. She is anywhere but in the moment with you.” Attractive women, however, don’t really have to learn how to do this, because they can choose among the guys who persevere through any initial awkwardness.

Some of the videos guys made in the 2000s, when we lived in a culture that’s less interested in digital mobs, are pretty good, but they’re only a start, and there is no substitute for practice. We live in a consumerist culture obsessed with immediate gratification, but in fact the best things usually only arrive after many years of effort, and by the time a man has achieved them, he’s a different man than he was when he began the journey. There are no magic lines, but there are ways of being in the world that open up the world’s shell, revealing the vital part of the oyster within. The more I think about my own journey, the more I realize I would’ve benefited from coaching early on, which is why I have recommended to guys that they find a coach, if they are serious and want to avoid wasting a lot of time (I wasted a lot of time).

Many of the top guys learn vibe, teasing, social skills, and so forth from their families, but most of us don’t get that, so we must learn them on our own (if we learn them at all… most people don’t). If a guy uses outrageous lines, but in a context that’s not right for it, the results may be blowouts or fireworks. But a guy frequently won’t know if the thing will work until he tries it. I like game stories because they frequently include elements where the guy tries something outrageous, just to see if it works… and, if it’s done properly, it often works. I’ve been told that my own unique contribution to game and seduction ideas is outrageous and impossible… accusations that make me smile (hopefully in a normal way, not in the awkward way Juggler had to train himself out of). So much is possible, and so few guys properly realize this. They live in frustration, instead of taking action.

She sees the future: will she see your tone and teases correctly?
Will she see through you, like she sees the future?

Author: The Red Quest

How can we live and be in society?

7 thoughts on ““Tone” and “teasing” are hard to nail”

  1. Teasing women, or people in general, is tricky to master but can be very effective. My main advice is to try and fail a lot until you get the hang of it. When I first learned about David DeAngelo’s “funny cocky” lines and Pickup 101’s “banter” lines, I had a lot of misfires in the early days and embarrassed myself from time to time. But I also had a lot of fun, and once I got the hang of it, some great moments and great memories with certain women.

    One thing that helped me was that I developed an “absurd compliment” form of teasing. Whereas most DeAngelo/Pickup 101 teases tend to be subtle negs or even putdowns, I would say things about a girl (or us as a couple) that were compliments (in form) but so exaggerated or silly that I was obviously joking. Stuff like telling her that her teeth smell lemon-fresh (with a comical inhale and a smile). I found it easier to learn how to calibrate these, and once I was good at it, it was easier to bridge to more aggressive forms of teasing.

    Regarding Juggler’s full-tilt smile: there’s much to be said for practicing one’s facial expressions in front of a mirror. Having a girl present to help identify your best expressions can also help.

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    1. Teasing women can definitely be tricky – I actually had a comedic misfire the other day.

      I’ve been finding some success by “negging” attractive women. I basically compliment one part of their outfit and then I indicate that another part of their outfit is so-so. Usually the girls bite and they’ll ask me why not, so I’ll make up some reason on the spot. It works pretty well because it flips the roles – the subtext now is that they are now seeking my approval instead of vice versa.

      However, I opened a nice (but not so attractive) girl saying the same thing and her also not-so-nice and (not so attractive friend) leaped to her defense and started hard shouting at me “What are you talking about. Her shoes are fucking amazing. Who the fuck do you think you are?” I can tell when girls are fake-angry, but this girl was legitimately furious. One of the other friends in the group (who was the attractive one) even said to the overreacting girl, “Wait, are you serious right now?” I held my ground momentarily and said something like “Oh wow, if I was looking for a good friend, I’d choose her. She’s a great friend.” Then I just “yeeted” myself out of the conversation.

      In the back of my mind, I know this sort of gimmick only works on more attractive girls because they guys fawning over them all the time and have higher self-esteem, but I still said it anyways.

      Definitely common knowledge at this point, but it goes to show you the nuances of teasing – neg hot girls more freely. Be a lot more conservative with girls closer to your SMV.

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  2. “They live in frustration, instead of taking action.”

    I completely resonate with this about guys today.

    Guys today have a remarkable ability to settle for the best they can get, to become the man that their women wants, to become the “ideal” provider guys. This is why we see the rise of “simp culture” where hoards of horny men populate the twitch chats of popular female streamers who fill in this “horny/emotional” gap that these guys feel. This is also why so many younger guys these days are stuck in the friendzone, because they are too uninitiated to deal with the sense of inferiority and loss that comes with being rejected. And I don’t blame them. I too have been stuck in a friendzone. I too have brought drinks for girls in despicable moments of desperation. I too have had illogical, unsensible moments of frustration where I believed a girl “owed” me something because I was always there for her.

    Most guys these days do not have the ability to overcome their fear of rejection, their sense of inferiority, nor the social judgment they may face from approaching a girl. But most of all, they just have an inability to accept the fact that perhaps they just weren’t good enough and move on. There is a huge disconnect between the “man they want to be” and the “man they actually are.” And with each failure, they are mercilessly reminded that in real life, they’re just not as badass as they thought they were. Instead of doing some value-building, some accept their fate. Some try. At some point, most reach the bare minimum level where they can get a “good looking enough girl” and they exit the game forever.

    I have chatted with many of my friends and it frustrates me to see the sort of modern-day limiting beliefs that they all have. It is not okay to go to bars and talk to girls. It is not okay to “neg” them. It is not okay to stray away from questions like “where are you from and what do you do.” It is not okay to break up with a girl when clearly it is a not so great relationship in search for someone better. In fact, bringing up these sorts of topics seems to trigger moments of vulnerability as they doubt their sense of self and their goals in life. I’ve opted to not bring up these discussions anymore and to let them live their lives in peace. Why make them suffer when they don’t have it in themselves to improve their own lives? It’s probably better for these guys to live freely without the burden of these kinds of thoughts. I myself, I cannot and I will never do that.

    In many ways, can I blame them? The social risks of detaching yourself from a political movement that is supposedly “righteous” seem to far outweigh the benefits. From a logical standpoint, the best bet of these men is to do nothing. To stay silent. To wait for something to happen to them. To stay home and play video games, to live life vicariously through animated characters and heroic superheroes.

    One of the only ways these men seem to be able to have some sort of agency over their dating life is to meet someone from OLD, to take the best that they can get, and to subsequently get married. Perhaps I am surrounded by guys who are not a good representation of men at large, and I acknowledge that. But still, instead of living a life stuck in comfort, wouldn’t it be better to “live a life without limitation” (cr Mr. Blackwing)?

    Life must be more than simply “taking the best you can get” and repressing your natural tendencies in favor of the optimal strategy of the opposite sex. Yes, men are meant to be with women, but why rush to settle down when you have the rest of your life to do it?

    Yes, I am frustrated by the way that many modern guys and modern women think. But at the same time, some part of me can’t completely blame them for their own problems. Perhaps these men and women themselves aren’t the cause of the problem themselves but rather a symptom of the overarching one.

    Today, sad, lonely men dominate the dating scene. These can be scared bums hiding behind their computer screens, they can be computer science majors who lack social skills but make a ton of money, or they can even be be those two good looking losers who awkwardly stand at the back of the bar with a drink in one hand.

    As well all know, with every 100 + swipe on dating apps, the average man gets few matches. The opposite is true for the average woman. Hoards of horny men populate the average woman’s tinder profile. From social media, women are constantly getting signals that only serve to validate their egos and validate their hotness. What you have is a world where women believe themselves to be more desirable than they actually are and world where the average man is less desirable than he actually is. But at the same time, social media is a double edged sword. With every post of Kylie’s jenner’s curvy booty and Kate Moss’s flat stomach (and complete lack of curves) women can’t help but end up feeling that they are never good looking enough. From “hot instagram girls” and models online, a women’s intuition tells her that “she is ugly”. But this conflicts with the signals men are sending who. Who is she to trust? Will she trust the “guy who is just trying to get in her pants” or will she just centralized media about “who and what is actually beautiful?” The end result is a universe where the average man lives with a scarcity mindset and the average women constantly goes through an unrelenting cycle of disappointment and reaffirmation. Both sides want to fuck each other and yet, in a world where sex is supposedly more accessible, many find a reason not to.

    Yes, both guys and girls should be more accountable have more agency in not just their dating lives but in their lives in general. But can we completely blame them for not having any?

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    1. I write Red Quest because so much of what appears in the mainstream media and culture is not just wrong, but wildly out of sync with what we see in every day reality, and with what actual women prefer (men who are assertive).

      IMO we have a deficit of assertiveness, action, and energy in the United States and much of the world, and Red Quest is a tiny effort to make a difference. The knowledge needed for guys to do better is out there, but most guys reject the gift.

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      1. Mainstream media and culture is certainly “wildly out of sync with what we see in every day reality”, but perhaps one factor discouraging men from accepting the view of the red pill, much less that of the men who succeed with cold approach and online dating, is that the way girls are discussed is so far removed not only from the mainstream media and culture they’ve been inundated with for most of their lives, but also their own experiences and total lack of any girls acting towards them in the manner they read or see in the “pickup artist” media. They may try their hand at a thing or two with little success, then write it off as hogwash (I nearly did).

        Agree completely on the “deficit of assertiveness, action, and energy in the United States”, I’m part of that deficit in all but action for now… time will tell if I can obtain/generate the other two.

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      2. “but also their own experiences and total lack of any girls acting towards them in the manner they read or see in the “pickup artist” media”

        It’s true that most guys have to learn how to elicit positives responses… and most guys don’t… what’s most interesting to me is that a lot of useful material is available in somewhat mainstream venues, https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2021/06/30/most-guys-dont-care-much-about-getting-laid-i-hypothesize/, but guys aren’t passing around copies of WHAT WOMEN WANT in HS or college, I don’t think…

        Guys can and should do better… chicks are somewhat right about that, I’ll grant…

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