Women want to follow your lead: a story about a woman presenting two ways

Years ago I dated this average-but-pretty woman, and I slowly introduced her to sex-positive culture and sex parties. When we first started dating she presented a fairly average relationship and sex history. Over the course of a month or two I got her to go to a sex party with me and then eventually got her to swap partners. That was hard for her at first, and about half of women I’ve gotten to do this find it very hard, while about half are pretty curious to try it out (contrary to some of the manosphere descriptions). She did do it and over time she became more sex-positive. In her rhetoric and actions she began to favor of group sex and consensual non-monogamy.

Eventually things soured because I wouldn’t move in with her and refused to make a long-term commitment. A long time ago I decided that cohabitation is not for me, and refusing the “next steps” has probably been the end of my last 10 – 15 short- to medium-term relationships. Most women have their own dating timeline and it moves from meeting to kissing to casual sex to deep sex to moving in, marrying, and children.

My timeline stops at deep sex and most women will break up with me when I tell them after a couple months that there is no “next” step to the relationship. It is possible to lie and let women dangle for long periods of time, but I think it’s mean, deceptive, and hurts both the woman and the guy telling the lie. Women also have tight reproductive timelines and for women over the age of 30 it’s cruel to let them invest years of their reproductive prime in a relationship that isn’t going anywhere.

Plus, if you let a woman age 30+ invest years of her reproductive prime in you, don’t be surprised if she takes matters into her own hands and “forgets” to take her birth control. Or she gets her IUD out and doesn’t have it replaced.

You may argue that’s unethical. I agree. It’s also unethical and cruel to let a woman invest years of her reproductive prime at age 30+ in a relationship that won’t lead to kids. Yes, she should “know better,” but so should you. Have fun with her for a couple months, then be straightforward about being a player and not wanting  kids (or kids with her).

I did like this woman and I did like the way she had sex. Like most women who breakup for timeline issues we did keep hooking up for a while. In these situations it’s common for the woman to find another guy, date him, break up with him, and come back for more sex.

I don’t think any of her friends totally knew what we were up to, although some could read between the lines when they’d ask what we were doing and I’d say things like, “Going to a party,” and when they’d ask if they could come, I’d explain that I’m not sure it was for them and that I wasn’t the host. If you do this kinda shit with a smile you can get away with it. Some of them would drunkenly confide their own dark sex desires to me, because they knew I’d keep those desires secret.

Recently this guy I work with acquired a new girlfriend. One night I finally meet her and it’s the same one from my story before! Just older. Meeting for her was awkward for her and for him, because we obviously knew each other. I just did my usual thing in this circumstance and was like, “Oh hey, I remember you from Joe’s party.” Like I said women want to fall into your frame and she fell right into mine again, saving face and making sure it’s less awkward than it would be otherwise for the guy dating her.

Part of the reason this encounter went more smoothly than it could have is because she knows I don’t want to shame her in front of her new man. I don’t want to out her. She knows that my sex positivity is real. She acquiesced to taping sex acts that could be viewed as degrading because she knew, correctly, that I would never use those tapes against her.

Some snippets of those tapes are still on the Internet but she is not identifiable in them. If you are part of the secret society and really keep the “secret” part of the secret society, good things will happen to you.

I’m 95% sure she’s not going to tell the guy she’s dating that she’s fucked me and fucked a bunch of other guys and gals with me. I’m pretty sure my colleague has a normal frame and worldview about women that does not include understanding that women love sex and will do almost anything for a guy they really want to keep. He couldn’t imagine this woman partner-swapping and fucking a guy whose name she doesn’t even know while I do the same to his girl. I feel kinda bad for the guy, but it is not my job to wake him up; that is his job. He is a fine guy overall but he presents to women as weak and normal so I’m sure women treat him that way.

He should know or suspect her history, but his mind doesn’t want to go there. People can tell which guys are players and which guys are losers who can’t get dates, and while I’ve mostly stopped bringing dates to most company or industry functions, people know. I try to minimize that reputation because it doesn’t help me for the most part, but it is not possible to fully hide who you are.

Also, I’m sure that some of the commenters will say that all women are willing to go to orgies and engage in gang bangs and the depraved shit I like. Not true. I’ve tried. Women have turned me down or just run away because group sex or partner swapping is not congruent with their personalities. That’s fine with me. I’d say they’re the minority of women, probably under 25%, but they exist.

Over time though most women will follow your lead. I want to be a hedonistic slut and over time demand that women do the same. Most will. My colleague probably wants women to present as demure and so they probably will present that way. Most people do not actually stand for anything, so they follow the lead of the strongest person they see.

Happy New Year and make 2017 the year you do the shit you really want to do. Don’t let other people tell you how to run your life. It is up to you to create the world you want to live in. The vast majority of the population just goes through other people’s ruts and other people’s paths.

To quote another writer, “Your woman is pretty much malleable to whatever values or life you to intend to live, if your frame is strong enough.” There are exceptions but in most cases women respond to authentic frames and want a guy strong enough to graciously and gracefully lead them. If you have that frame a lot becomes possible. Most women hide their deep sexual desires for fear of being judged by other women and by men. The number who will speak about how they feel or act out their fantasies is small because most women are constrained by the box other women and men put around them. I try to open that box.

Show her what type of man you are so she knows what kinda woman to be.

Someone asked me whether most guys in non-monogamous relationships are secretly or overtly bisexual. I don’t think so, and guys who are bi or want to experiment with men can go to any gay bar any night of the week to do so. They don’t need to go to a sex club. Gay guys do what straight guys wish they could and have sex all the time. So there’s really no need to go through the whole party and club process that straight group sex entails.

Most guys are weak. Be different: “Today’s men are not nearly as strong as their dads were, researchers say”

Today’s men are not nearly as strong as their dads were, researchers say” is a must-read. The short, un-PC version is that most guys are pussies. Are you one? Then stop being one. Being a pussy is a choice that you make eery day.

Based on reading “Today’s men are not nearly as strong as their dads were, researchers say,” it’s not surprising that most guys have problems with women, since most guys have weak, flabby bodies matched with weak, flabby minds and weak, flabby personalities. None of those are attractive to women. If you fix those fundamentals (most guys are too busy playing video games and watching Internet porn to bother) you will beat 80% or more of guys out there.

The WaPo article says,

To look at it another way: In 1985, the typical 30-to-34-year-old man could squeeze your hand with 31 pounds more force than the typical woman of that age could. But today, older millennial men and women are roughly equal when it comes to grip strength.

Women don’t want a guy who is only as strong as they are. They want considerably strong. Tough love: if you are a pussy in the physical realm you deserve to have those problems.

I’ve had lots of problems in my life but I’ve never had some of the extreme problems with women a lot of guys have. I think that’s because I developed strong sports and athletics habits early and never gave up. The price modern guys pay is never being able to give up. Most of the guys I swam with and lifted with when I was younger are now typical fatasses, and they have all the typical older guy fatass problems.

I know I keep saying this, but that’s because it’s so important: you will beat a huge percentage of guys just by not being a pussy.

(ht Marginal Revolution)

Be kind from a position of strength, not a position of weakness

Don’t be a “nice” guy. But I’ve observed guys who can be kind while still being dominant, and I’ve observed guys who attempt to be kind but are really giant pussies. The differences are instructive.

Two guys I work with illustrate the point… one is respected, demanding, and yet kind, while the other guy runs around supplicating to women and superiors in a way that makes him seem like a dog. He’ll do anything for anyone and as a consequence no one respects his time or (limited) knowledge. He brags about the things he does for people and especially for women. Watching him brag to women he’d like to bang is pathetic. He’d be a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen if he had the balls to make a move. Fortunately he doesn’t and he’s at least harmless enough not to be a likely lawsuit target.

The other guy will not do anything for anyone any time. He isn’t miserly either. Instead he seems to carefully evaluate who he is actually friends with and what actually needs to be done. He can be astonishingly generous with his time if he thinks his investment is likely to be worthwhile, but he is also good at subtly but definitely shaming people who waste his time. One of my first bosses was like him, and I learned more from that boss (and from a particular client) than I have from anyone else, ever, including teachers, professors, and girlfriends.

I’m also thinking about kindness from a position of stregnth because in this essay VC Paul Graham states,

Good does not mean being a pushover. I would not want to face an angry Ronco. But if Ron’s angry at you, it’s because you did something wrong. Ron is so old school he’s Old Testament. He will smite you in his just wrath, but there’s no malice in it.

In almost every domain there are advantages to seeming good. It makes people trust you. But actually being good is an expensive way to seem good. To an amoral person it might seem to be overkill.

Being kind does not mean being a pussy. If you’re “kind” because you’re a pussy and can’t be assertive, no one will respect you and no one should respect you. Things are often valuable in proportion to their supply, and an infinite supply of a thing (like kindness) is of low value.

Don’t be “nice” to women, but be kind to ones who you’re already fucking and who deserve kindness. Don’t give anything, including attention, to women you’re not fucking and who have proven that you’re not going to fuck them. With women and clients pretty much everything is a binary: You’re fucking them or you’re not; they’re giving you money or they’re not. There is no in between. Women and clients like the liminal state. It took me way too long to learn this.

I hate to use the word “nice,” which is close to “kind,” because “nice” has been so polluted by the idea of the “nice guy” that it’s toxic.

Being kind can also mean being tactfully honest. If someone is deadlifting incorrectly it is kind to tell them, or to tell them how you know what you know. Being “nice” can often mean trying to assuage a person’s feelings, even when feelings of inadequacy or wrongness are justified. That being said, know when to speak and when to shut the fuck up. Often shutting the fuck up is best because morons can’t be helped and can’t take justified criticism.

The girl I’m breaking away from sees me as kind because her sister (who she is close to) does and because of something I did: I paid her tuition (which wasn’t much money) briefly. Now, I know, and you should know, that it’s a horrible idea to use money to supplicate to women. Let me emphasize that before commenters jump on me. I’d already been dating this girl for about a year. When we first started dating I don’t think she had any idea how much I make. I don’t waste money on the usual dumb shit guys waste money on (cars, apartments; unfortunately I do have a high burn rate that is not negotiable, however). Her work and school interfered with her ability to do the things I wanted her to do, so I just paid the tuition. She didn’t ask for it, directly or indirectly, which is an unusual mark of character these days. It isn’t a lot of money to me. You can argue that I was manipulated, but if so then I was party to the manipulation.

We’re on the path to breakup because she wants to move in with me and I’ve flat-out said no. I’ve been down that path and I’m not going down it again. I like this girl and I like the crazy shit I’ve encouraged her to do, but long-term she’s too young for me and I don’t want the kind of committment she thinks she wants but doesn’t actually want. Living together is the death of eroticism and I won’t do that again. Not anytime soon. Maybe someday.

Reminder, I originally wrote this post a year and a half ago, so some of the personal anecdotes don’t line up with my current life.

Men don’t take women on “dinner” dates because women don’t want to go on them

In “Is ‘Netflix and Chill’ Actually a Good Date?” a writer named Beejoli Shah laments how “As a woman rapidly approaching 30, one of my largest personal failings is the fact that I’ve yet to go on a first date that involves eating food on purpose.” There’s a reason: Women don’t really like dinner dates, they find those dates awkward, and those dates don’t put them in the mood for sex. Smart guys get burned by one or two dinner dates, in which they pay and a woman says LJBF, and then guys learn to stop inviting women on those dates. As you can infer I speak from experience, as I made the dinner mistake once or twice after college.

Shah says

when it comes to being asked to sit down with a man for a meal that didn’t come in a paper bag from a place we happened to wander by, things haven’t quite metastasized

Shah could say that the only way she’s going on a date is if it involves dinner. But if she did, the guys she most wants to fuck would next her. The guys she least wants to fuck might take the bait. Either way will leave her unsatisfied.

My approach was straightforward: “Netflix and chill? I hear it’s all the cool teen rage these days,” which I hoped would offer me an out if I was immediately rejected. But judging by the reactions I received, no one else labored under the false delusions that I did. Men, for all their bravado of how easy it is to hookup these days, are overwhelmingly terrified by the idea of being propositioned simply for sex.

If I were offered “Netflix and chill” by someone attractive, I’d be excited. I’d want to meet them in public first, though.

Beejoli Shah claims that the men she meets aren’t interested hookups, but typing her name into Google Image reveals the most likely culprit. She is in fact not living in the same world as the women most men would like to hook up with.

No one should take the dating / romantic / hookup / game advice of a person seriously without at least seeing what they look like and knowing what their vibe is like. We all live in our own little bubbles and generalize from those bubbles.

Shah is having a very different experience than a pretty girl would, just like attractive guys have a different experience than ugly ones, which is why the initial advice newbies get always involves improving overall attractiveness and social skills. Karley Sciortino, the chick who writes slutever.com, is hot. Her experience dating is different because she’s hot. Always remember that when you people’s generalization on the Internet. If you don’t know their real-life hotness, vibe, coolness, and social circle, you don’t know shit about them. That includes me too.


“Clothes That Attract Women” (don’t exist in and of themselves)

Clothes That Attract Women” is a very good article, and it’s so good that I don’t have much to add (though I disagree somewhat about the attraction-to-comfort ratio the author implies is best). These paragraphs are especially good:

Status is the most important aspect of attraction and that can be on a broader scale – relationship to overall status in the world or in a tribe – or on a smaller scale – relationship to the woman you’re trying to attract.

Status is relative to women – they always want someone who’s higher status than they are

Status is tricky because it can be overall status or status within a particular subculture. In fact, the more isolated a particular subculture is, the less overall status within society at large matters.

It’s hard to truly learn game because there is no single “status” button that all women will like. So seeking That One Answer for That One Girl will usually fail, because there isn’t one answer.

This guy has also done some reading in the manosphere:

Meeting some minimum standards of status for men is the same thing as meeting minimum standards of beauty for women – which is typically why the happiest couples are paired fairly closely, with the man being higher in status than the woman.

A lot of what new guys are doing is learning how perceived status works at all and how to optimize what they have. A lot of experienced guys are learning how to boost their status and learn new skills and abilities, etc.

Clothes are one part of status. Social skills are another. Looks are another. Job / lifestyle / etc. is another. General skills (like cooking) can be another. I would argue that tolerance to social rejection is actually a big part of modern status (i.e. if you are willing to tolerate rejection by a lot of women you are also more likely to uncover women who actually like you). It took me about ten years to mostly get over my own fear of rejection and if I’d done so sooner I would’ve been much better off. I also ignored style for too long and paid for that.

I won’t say the guy who writes Masculine Style is right for everybody but thinking consciously about what you want to project as a guy is a good idea.

You should read the Nick Krauser books on game, like “Adventure Sex”

You should read the Nick Krauser books. They are expensive and only available as physical copies on Lulu. But they are also far more in-depth than almost any forum post, blog, or website. If you spend any amount of time here, they are going to be worth the money because they explain in detail the theory and practice of fucking hot girls, just like the very good textbooks in college are chosen because they’re comprehensive and will accelerate your learning / knowledge.

In my head I’m good with women but on reading the Krauser memoirs I’ve started to realize that I’m not, not really. I have some key advantages in terms of looks, vibe, and a willingness to take rejection, but I’m not good. I could never write Adventure Sex because I don’t know enough to write it. We’re around the same age, maybe I’m a little older, but he seems to consistently f**k higher quality girls than I do. I can get high-quality chicks… just less consistently. For like two years I was seeing this girl who was 19 – 21 cause she was working in a coffee shop and I worked her there, but that was an anomaly and I know it. When she wanted to move in with me and I said no things came to their end.

Adventure Sex is mostly about the processes that lead to success. It also recognizes the darkness that tinges Krauser’s writing. Sometimes he makes the darkness explicit, as when he fucks one girl and she says:

“You should give my boyfriend sex lessons. You’re so good at it!” A man doesn’t want to hear that. Superficially it’s great for the ego to know you’re cucking another guy – it’s like stealing his lunch money – and also to be flattered about your sexual prowess. The downside is it forces you to look into the abyss. Men Really don’t like to know how depraved and wanton women really are. We prefer the purity fantasy.

(Page 288)

When I was younger I think I preferred the purity fantasy also, especially about the woman who I was with for a lot of my 20s and who is the mother of two of my children (yes, I checked via DNA, for those of you wondering). But purity isn’t real and most women can be turned towards hot adventure sex. In most women the desire to be fucked by a hot guy is there, however subdued it is. I remember the first time I fucked a married woman in her mid-30s (or really I just got fucked by her). She was hot enough for me and it was easy to read the boredom in her eyes, but she basically took me up more than me taking her up. If you are like most guys and wait for chicks you will not do as well as you can. With her I felt both dominant and disgusting after it. It’s a strange but real sensation and the sort of thing you do not read on Reddit very much (I think because most of the guys here are not so experienced, or as experienced as they claim). Experiencing deep, conflicting emotions is somewhat common in real life but does not get a strong airing on Reddit. That woman was one of the keys for me, and she helped me fully understand the (hot) depravity that a lot of women are capable of, but that much of society tries to hide from men.

Truth is that with her I didn’t do that much apart from opening the door. If it hadn’t been me it would’ve been someone else. I want to get even better though and make more things happen, but getting better means knowing your weaknesses and systematically working to improve them.

I am rambling some but the point is that the book is good, and pretty much every chapter I highlighted a section that made me go, “Yes, that is exactly how it is.” Or:

The ten minutes after sex are probably the only times in my life I have a genuinely clear mind, freed from sexual desire and at peace with the world. Women can’t fully appreciate just how thoroughly the sex drives dominates a man’s life. He’s never free of it. It’s testosterone that determines your libido and men have seventeen times more of it than women.

(Page 290)

I feel similarly but to do good work I have to thrust sex out of my mind and focus solely on work, forcing my attention to it if need be. It’s mostly after work that the sex drive comes flooding back and I find myself on the hunt, thinking and acting with my dick, chasing chicks, looking online, in bars, escorts, the sex tapes I’ve made, whatever, depending on what I need and what the options are. I don’t live in a great place for day game and that is a shame because if I did I would try it more (I am also not very good at it).

The paradoxes of being a really successful guy are many, and I do not see them discussed as often as I should. The thinking here is too binary, too black and white in a world filled with gray and ambiguities. Paradoxes like, “Successful player have it within themselves to maintain that empirical mindset while also being creative, inductive and deductive at the same time.” Most guys are empiricists or creatives, but the best ones fuse the two.

I talked about the darkness earlier and it strikes again at the end of the book:

Most men are not sexually attractive and in 2009 that described me. I’d experienced White Man God mode in Japan but knew it was overrated – it’s never the hot Asian girls who play that game with you. Gamme males such as 2009-vintage me play that game because they are completely frozen out of their own mating markets. Better a mid-level Asian girl than a fat Western sow.

Game had promised a way out – a secret system of tricks and wheezes to bullshit women into bed, or so I thought in the beginning. That promised to be something I lacked. I began my journey with a crushing burden of negative limiting beliefs, all stemming from that one gnawing self-esteem issue – I wasn’t attractive to girls.

(page 493)

The journey of becoming attractive took many years and many tries. The things that drive him may not drive you. Like for him it is all about the new girl and the next girl and he does not want to spend time with the girls mostly. I really like that and I am also obsessed with making my own porn videos, so I am not the same as him and neither are you. I like group sex and anonymity and other things like that, things that some of you here will think are degenerate but I find them super hot. Your goals will change with what you really want. I also have an extreme aversion to fat girls and have sometimes said pointlessly mean things to them. I have also sometimes talked about why diet matters and discipline and other psychological things that fat girls don’t get, unless they want to stop being fat.

There are a lot of posts on Krauser’s website, but they cannot achieve the comprehensiveness of the books. Books and long-form narrative are still irreplaceable, and if the only reading you do is fragmentary Internet stuff you are wasting time and mental energy. Yes, Reddit is useful in its place but it cannot and will not replace books. You will very rarely get real experts on Reddit, here or in the seduction subsection. Sorry. I know I am not a real expert but I also have a decent idea of what real experts are like.

Real seduction experts are also rare because most guys eventually settle in with a hot, high-quality woman. It takes an unusual guy to keep at the game (“Had I been a normal man, I’d have married her already. Sadly, I’m not a normal man.”) I think he’s got an extremely avoidant attachment style. If you Google Scholar some more you will find it. I don’t know if that issue comes from childhood or from his first wife or what, but I do not think very many people could live anything like him.

There are bad parts of Adventure Sex. Krauser is a flaming, incredible racist. It also seems that his earlier failures with women haunt them in a way that may be familiar to some of you but are not familiar to me. I did pretty well with girls in high school / college, so I look at that time as a period of fun and experimentation rather than failure. I am not filled with resentment about missed opportunities, etc. One senses that his early failures drive his present obsessions, and that is not true of me. I am driven more by pure hedonism and the realization that the conventional path is fucked up.

The reader experiences a lot of cognitive dissonce reading Krauser’s racist and anti-semitic sentences and metaphors, because one would think that a person so smart in some domains would be able to transfer that intelligence into others. Instead, one experiences a sense of disgust. One also notes that the girls Krauser bangs don’t know about (or seek to know about) his racist ideas, or, if they do not, they don’t punish him for it.

But I keep reading because despite his ugly comments he has accomplished something few men do and come back to report on it.

Apart from Krauser, these are the best books I’ve encountered for learning game.

Ride a motorcycle—for fun, transport, and dating

Guys who’re dating should ride a motorcycle. To be sure, motorcycles can be incredibly dangerous, but if you ride conservatively and carefully you will likely only fall once (“drop your bike” in the parlance). Motorcycles also attract daredevils, which likely skews the data on injuries and fatalities. Still, I try to restrict riding to daylight hours and to surface streets rather than highways.

Riding is itself incredibly fun. You can learn how by Googling “learn how to ride a motorcycle in my city.” Courses will cost $150 – $400 or so. Let me emphasize that YOU MUST TAKE A CLASS. You can maybe learn from a buddy w/ a bike but I still recommend the class. If you do not take it you are risking your life and health for little reason.

Ride for yourself but you should also know that women fucking LOVE motorcycles. I have a Zero Electric and it’s amazing. I will never ride a conventional, gas-powered bike full-time again. You can likely find cheap ones online but you will need an experienced person to guide you if you go the used, conventional-bike route.


In online dating, my motorcycle pic gets all the comments and questions (my preferred pic grouping is one shirtless and lifting or running, one moto, one of two girls kissing my cheeks, one involving drinking, adventure, or travel). If you don’t know how to ride I strongly suggest you learn. One of my favorite, go-to comments to women early in the interaction is, “Usually I don’t let women ride my bike till after I’ve slept with them.” Often I let that “rule” slide and ride with them anyway. Because of the geometry of bikes and the thrill of doing it, the ride often acts as foreplay (think about the anatomy). Women who’ve ridden before know it too.

In the other thread a person using the name “LuvBeer” said, “My first date basically consists of a motorcycle ride, makeout session, then back to my place.” A golden comment. I’ve done dates like his. If you take her out for 10 – 15 mins of riding, you should find a good place to pull over, pull off her helmet, and kiss her passionately for a couple minutes. It’ll feel natural and exhilarating to her.

Riding a motorcycle will obviously not fix broken fundamentals of personality, weight, social presence, etc. You cannot buy your way out of who you are. But riding a motorcycle is super fun, makes a super fun date or part of a date, makes you look badass in the eyes of women (who almost never know any better) and is a fun, low-carbon way of getting around. We should all be trying to lower our carbon footprints. I get opened all the time when I dodge into stores with my helmet.

In many cities a motorcycle will have to complement a car rather than substitute for it, but if you live in a dense urban area with good public transport and good Uber and Lyft, you may be able to ditch the car full-time. If you must have a car and bike you will raise your costs, which sucks, but I think it’s worthwhile for guys who can hack it.

Public transit is underrated for guys because it offers a way to chat up women you happen to run into during your day-to-day life. In a car you won’t be able to open the cute straphanger. Game is best run in open, fluid interactive situations—the opposite, in other words, of car cities and car commuting.