“28.3 percent of women… fantasized about…”

A 2014 study conducted by researchers at the University of Montreal and published in the Journal of Sexual Medicine suggested that 28.3 percent of women and 13.1 percent of men fantasized about having sex with more than one man at the same time, and that 24.7 of women and 75.3 percent of men fantasized about having sex with more than one woman at the same time.

That’s a summary from a trashy magazine,  but I would wager that most people won’t admit their deepest fantasies to researchers. The true number is likely higher.

I write this not to argue that you should indulge in a chick’s depraved fantasies, although I do that, but to remind you of who and what you’re dealing with beneath the surface.  Many if not most chicks will present one way and behave another. Most guys do not realize this immediately… it took me until I was well into my 20s to really get it, although I should have put together the pieces much earlier.

If you’re a guy who can execute a chick’s deepest fantasies, while also communicating to her that no one else needs to know about what she’s done, she may truly be yours.

If you’re on a date with a woman, there’s at least a one-in-four chance she’d like to try group sex. Most women will not admit that quickly, of course. But they might admit it to a non-judgmental, open guy who they’ve been sleeping with for a while.

Most guys never get to see how deep it goes. Even now, I’d bet the majority of you think you know but haven’t gone all the way. Even I’m not sure I have.


“Fat acceptance” will never happen in the places it matters

Flat Lander writes,

“[the single mother] at the BBQ was too fat and likely old. I did my usual in that situation: didn’t say too much, but when I did talk, I only talked about lifting, fitness, and nutrition.”

@TheRedQuest doing his part against fat acceptance.

I appreciate the mention and encouragement, but I’m also really unconcerned with the fat acceptance movement. It’s pure virtue signaling and has zero impact in the place it matters most: dating and mating markets. Even the handful of people who think fat acceptance is a thing still prefer not to date fatties.

Markets are beautiful because they separate the lies people say (meaning, most of what people say) from what people actually want. Almost no one wants fatties. Even if most people are polite to fatties, as I typically am, the fatties still won’t be able to get good dates.

That being said, I feel some compassion towards fat people, but before you think I’ve become an everyone-is-special loser, I say that I feel some compassion towards fat people because our entire built environment is geared towards making people fat. Kids are told to sit down and be quiet from an early age; recess is in peril, while gym is often a joke. The vast majority of cities are built around cars that transport fatties around with zero effort, so that no one needs to bike or walk. White-collar work demands that most people sit at desks. Most people don’t even have a sit-stand desk (although I see this changing, slowly). Someone who bikes to work is seen as either an improbable hero who is far removed from everyday life or a weirdo. I’ve been seen as both.

Sugars and simple carbs are everywhere in our society. For decades, the USDA and other organizations encouraged everyone to eat a high-carb, low-fat diet (I believed it, too, up until the mid to late ’00s, when the counter evidence became overwhelming). In fact, the opposite is desirable: a high-fat, low-carb, zero-sugar diet.

Most people who don’t want to be fatties must actively fight against the society in which we live. Many don’t even understand nutrition or its importance in their lives. For most people, who just go with the flow around them, becoming a fattie is the default state. We should build a society in which cars are unnecessary, biking is common, and simple carbs are rare.

I know that’s an improbable utopia. But we can try to do it. You, the reader, can try by getting a bike and riding it. That’s an improvement almost any normal person can do. Encourage other people to ride, but don’t be an asshole about it.

Two things are simultaneously true:

  • The entire food and physical environment is geared towards making people fat.
  • An individual person can choose a different path, one that takes him or her away from being a fattie. (As I have done.)

Saying “The environment is built to make fat people” does not absolve someone of individual responsibility, but it does make me understand why most of us are fat.

The “individual responsibility” part is why I sometimes invite fatties to the gym with me, or become a bore who only talks about sugar and deadlifting and foam rollers during certain social moments. We can do better, if we choose to do so. I pity the fatties, because most don’t really know what to do or lack the willpower necessary to execute the program. Being fat is detrimental beyond dating life. It signals sloth and low conscientiousness to employers. It increases health costs and decreases mental acuity. Why would anyone try to “accept” that? It’s a horrible condition that should be changed, not accepted.

If you want a fun mechanical hobby, take a bike repair class. Bikes are beautiful machines that most people don’t understand. Working on bikes is an absolutely terrible way to meet chicks, but it’s fun to do.

The dating, mating, and business worlds are already so mean to fatties that there’s really no reason to fight against “fat acceptance.” The fight has already been won and will remain won forever.

Three major circles: game, sex clubs, mainstream corporate

Talking to Nash the other day, I realized that I have three major circles in my life that don’t intersect much: game, or game awareness is one; sex clubs and open relationships is another; mainstream corporate work is the third. I’m interested in game, as any reader can tell. I’ve written about sex clubs and open relationships in various ways, relating to game. But the sex club and open relationship people, if they speak about game at all, denigrate it in a very mainstream way, as being creepy or predatory. I’ve never talked about or defended game in these venues. Game people online almost never speak or write about conscious non-monogamy, with the exception of Blackdragon, who doesn’t go to clubs, from what I can see. To my way of thinking, there should be greater overlap between game and non-monogamy, but there almost never is. If you can find any other game writers doing group sex, tell me about them.

In the mainstream corporate world, at least my part of it, almost everyone gets married; most people don’t talk too much about their erotic lives. There’s some talk around sex, especially around drink, but it’s pretty button-up, on the surface. Lots of people are vanilla. The less-vanilla people hide it at work. This may be different in places like New York City or L.A., but I think it’s true in most of the United States.

Underneath mainstream corporate work, there’s often an erotic sizzle that happens in certain people and at certain locations, especially regarding alcohol. When I was younger I didn’t realize how much booze really lubricates business. It does. It also lubricates hookups. I don’t advocate for hooking up with direct coworkers, as that invites drama and other problems, but there are many adjacent opportunities, as well as opportunities with former coworkers. Most cities also have business meetups and general conferences… they’re not just about business. And business travel often excites people out of their pattern and into a tryst. For a player, the problem is that there just aren’t that many attractive businesswomen. There are some, especially on the younger side, but relatively few of my lays and lovers have come from this area.

Instead, they’ve typically come from online or in-person meetings. Many, probably the majority, have come from sex clubs or parties, but that’s because sex club one-offs are common. That environment already screens for high-libido, high-openness, experimental, and horny chicks. To me, it’s “easy mode.” It still requires some game and more social deftness than a typical guy may assume, but I think it’s easy and fun. The intersection of those appeals to me. Some guys get into game not for the lays but for the challenge. I understand that, but if I could just bang a bunch of hot chicks without game, I would do that.

(That’s like saying, “If someone dropped ten million dollars in my bank account, I’d be cool with it.” I might be cool with it, but except for 100 trust fund kids, that’s not how the world works.)

I got into the sex club thing in my late 20s. I’d met this chick who was around my age, and she got into them because conventional relationships basically didn’t work for her because she wanted (maybe still wants) too much sex.

Sounds like a weird problem, right? Only if you’ve never experienced these chicks. Very high-libido chicks exist. I know because I’ve met them, and Libido Girl was one. Sometimes they get a medical tag like “Persistent genital arousal disorder (PGAD)” or labeled as sex addicts. I don’t know, maybe for some of them their sexual desires mess up their lives. For a lot of them, though, I think it’s biological variation at work. For whatever reason they want serious, hard fucking at least once and preferably twice a day. Libido Girl was like that.

If you’re a basic guy you might be thinking, “Great, I’d love it!” You do, in theory, at first. A very high libido woman will often not be able to find men who can keep up with her. So her relationships suffer and maybe her whole life suffers. Word may get around her social circle that she’s a slut, and other girls better keep their boyfriends away from her. All very unpleasant things. She may be needy with her monogamous boyfriend, who can’t get hard again fast enough.

If these kind of women can separate sex from emotion (not all women can, and that’s one reason I’m willing to do more long game than some game guys suggest), they’re often well-suited to being escorts or sex workers.

So what’s a girl with a super-high libido to do? She can try to find a guy to match her. Most guys, confronted with a wildly sexual woman, will exhaust themselves eventually. Libido Girl had gone through the up-and-down monogamy cycle a bunch of times, until she figured out that she wasn’t meant to be monogamous. She found out about consensual non-monogamy and group sex and began going to clubs. I don’t remember how she learned. She read something or a guy told her. Quickly she got involved in the scene and then began bringing other guys into it. She’d been going for about two years when I met her.

We started hooking up, and within a week or two she asked if I wanted to go to her friends’ sex party. She was a very popular guest because she was pretty (a low 7 I’d say, but good personality) and feral. Hot, low-drama, high-libido women are always welcomed. In advance she’d told me that it would be an intense experience. She was right. The party was held in someone’s apartment, and something like 14 – 16 people were there. I met most of them at the beginning. It started off like a regular party. Drinks, chitchat, hanging around. After a couple drinks most of the chicks took off their dresses or fancy clothes. They started kissing each other or their partners.

Then, pretty much everyone started fucking. It was a little bit like visting a foreign country, because everyone was just doing their thing and so it seemed pretty normal, except for the obvious. When everyone around you does one thing, it’s just the thing everyone does, and you kind of start to do it too. Libido Girl and I had sex; I couldn’t believe all the action going on around me. I understood that some people did such things, but even then I was not fully aware how a lot of chicks will behave, sexually. Then Libido Girl had sex with another girl (who she knew well), and I kind of assisted, for lack of a better term. We took a break, and then I was basically set up with this very hot chick who was part of a couple Libido Girl knew already. Libido Girl was smart, so she watched as the other girl and I fucked, then after I was fully engaged she had sex with the guy, so that I was too busy to get jealous.

It was an incredible experience. The chick I got set up with was gorgeous. I imagine that first introductions to non-monogamy and group sex are important, and Libido Girl managed mine beautifully. Libido Girl and I went to a club a week or two after and I was pretty much hooked. The club wasn’t as good as the party, but we got to meet a few cool people. Typical sex club people are in a long-term relationship, often married, and bored with each other. Sometimes the woman is quite hot, but the guy has banged her so many times that he’s indifferent to her beauty. Many times, probably most of the time, she is not hot, typically due to being overweight or too old.

Libido Girl wasn’t a real girlfriend, but she was courteous and straightforward about her desires and expectations… like a lot of girls are not. She wasn’t ever going to be a real girlfriend in a conventional sense, but eventually I began dating other women and Libido Girl was fine with it. Chicks like Libido Girl terrify normal women, because Libido Girls don’t care very much about monogamy. Libido Girl had been the source of a bunch of cheating, from her own admission, and I believe her. She had a fairly regular job, and it didn’t seem like sex totally ruled her life, but she was not like other chicks and knew it. Girls like her also like online dating, because they can get sex without affecting their social reputations.

I should clarify that I didn’t know the details about Libido Girl from the beginning. I learned them in bits and pieces over several months, or more realistically about a year. I wasn’t looking for anything serious at the time, having gotten out of a serious thing not too long before. She also figured out that I’m curious, open to different kinds of experience, and non-judgmental. If chicks think a guy won’t judge them, they’ll say a lot of things they’ll keep quiet around most guys. So Libido Girl’s cornerstone drives and life story came out, just not the way I’ve presented it. The way I’ve told her story is less flattering and, to most people, extremely threatening. She introduces sexual chaos to a world where the ideological and intellectual default is still monogamy.

I think I got into sex parties as a solution to a problem, or set of problems. The problem is sleeping with lots of different women and doing so somewhat efficiently. Most chicks who start as hookups will eventually ask, “Where is this going?” Usually that’s the beginning of the end. I’m not sure I will ever be fully monogamous again. Switching a woman’s from thinking she wants monogamy to thinking she doesn’t is hard for many chicks but can be done. Some will reject it. Many will go along with it for as long as the guy is there to lead them.

Libido Girl was unusual but not completely unusual in her non-monogamy preferences. Very high libido chicks are often poorly suited to normal relationships. So if they think about their life situation, non-monogamy can be the answer, because then they can sleep with a couple different guys and girls and still have their needs satisfied.

They just have to find the right guy or guys. Lots of guys like open relationships in theory but don’t like them in practice. Libido Girl had to break up with a lot of guys who became emotionally connected to her and wanted her to be monogamous. She’d learned not to accept monogamy, because monogamy would either break her due to her sex drive or she’d cheat on the guy.

The average chick at a sex club is not like Libido Girl. But there is a minority of chicks like her who go. You wouldn’t know her proclivities if you met her at a meeting or over coffee. She doesn’t dress much more provocatively than typical chicks. She just fucks more, more often, longer, and sooner than most chicks. If she goes on a first date with someone she likes, she’s going to fuck him (or her). She’s highly congruent in her psychology, which as all players know is not true of all chicks.

Typical people get into group sex experiments because friends bring them or they read something.

Libido Girl and I kept seeing each other casually until she moved for work. She’s gotten fat over time, like so many people, so she’s no longer of sexual interest to me. Like I wrote here, I’d guess that half to three quarters of women are up for some form of group sex. Many, practically all, women have threesome fantasies of some kind. A guy who can fulfill her fantasies is a guy who’ll keep her coming back.

These are things I can’t talk about with work friends. Sometimes I look at people and wonder how many of them are doing the same things I am, but they can’t talk about it either.

At work, I’m pretty weird by corporate standards. I’m totally uninterested in things that consume others: houses, cars, TVs, boats, “vacation” houses, most forms of purchasable consumption. Sometimes I just want to ask, “Why do you buy things?” and “Why do you exist?” But that would go from pretty weird to unacceptably bizarre. I love to workout, eat well, read. Inexpensive activities. And of course sex, a hobby that I can’t share with others on the job. Too unruly, too dangerous, too disruptive.

Friends who see my place say I basically “live like a college student,” like it’s an insult. I’m like, “What’s the point of spending all that money on furniture and bullshit?” Seriously, life is about the quality of your relationships and connections to other people. Sex is the ultimate pleasure and also creates relationships. Almost no one cares about your expensive couch or shitty art. Is it clean and functional? Then it’s good enough. The vast consumer marketing machine ingests us all. Few can resist. Even I don’t resist that well. We can all do better, as human beings.

“Last year, I ended a two-year relationship with a man who ultimately couldn’t commit and wanted to be polyamorous.”

Last year, I ended a two-year relationship with a man who ultimately couldn’t commit and wanted to be polyamorous.”

The article itself is titled “Dating columnist reveals how ‘Sex and the City’ ruined her life” and is as stupid as you’d expect. I only quote the sentence above because it supports “Game-aware guys being ‘poly’ or ‘open.’” I can’t know this for sure, but I’m guessing he’s a decently high-status guy who was happy to fuck the author but didn’t want to subsidize her financially. Like some high-status guys, he’s figured out that poly is an escape hatch from the “Where is this going?” conversation. She didn’t bite, but some other woman probably will.

It’s not that he “couldn’t commit.” It’s that he didn’t need or want to.

Expect to see more of this going forward. High-level guys will see poly as a means of improving retention.

One more time

Did manage to see the twenty-year-old again last night. She’s been difficult to get out but great when she’s actually out. I keep thinking that she’s playing games, but when she does show up she doesn’t shit test.

I got to thinking about things I read online, when guys construct these epic stories about frame and getting around girl bullshit and girl psychology and so on. Those stories are sometimes very good. Sometimes, though, girls are just genuinely busy, or sick, or have things going on in their lives.

The twenty-year-old may be playing games, or she may have someone else she’s pursuing, or she may be busy, sick, or have an extensive social life. Or all four. But sometimes girls tell the truth and aren’t playing games, so a guy’s effort to decode what she’s “really” doing is futile, because there is no code.

That point may not be profound, but I have been guilty of over-thinking. I think about my own life. Often, I’m just doing things. The twenty-year-old has also been apparently willing to meet at times when I haven’t been able to. She doesn’t initiate meetings, but in my experience many chicks don’t or won’t.

(I’m deliberately omitting a few details that make my point make more sense.)

I feel like if I posted this little story about the twenty-year-old to forums, the participants would get on me about being “too beta” or her “not being that into me” or the other things guys on forums say. Sometimes those things are true. Sometimes, they’re not.

She’s difficult enough to get out that I’m basically giving up on her, or more realistically just pinging her when it’s extremely convenient to me. It’s somewhat unusual for me to see a chick so responsive texting but not meeting. And my texting is pretty disciplined and focused on meetings. Usually chicks either ghost or progress. Being kind of in-between is unusual for me. Most chicks are pretty keen for the second shot, so this one is weird for me.

I wrote two weeks ago that

I’ve felt the overwhelming urge to over-contact her. I know intellectually that to give into that urge is a mistake (the same urge I felt with the girl in the last third of this post). Any time I start to think about her, and the crush brewing, I have to stop myself and ask the key question, “Will you sending her something right now raise your chances or lower them?”

That urge is gone now; I’ve lost momentum. I don’t even have to do texting discipline. The intense desire to be close to her is not really there. I just don’t send her much beyond “let’s get together” or “you missed out on doing this thing we talked about.”

Don’t get me wrong, being with her is still nice. But that intense feelings rush has been harmed by her behavior.

Game-aware guys being “poly” or “open”

(A response to Nash’s comment.)

I think the most basic, obvious, important distinction is that guys who know they can get laid have a very different experience from guys who don’t. I’m not saying a guy must go out on a random day or night and come back with a chick a few hours later (I can’t, of course), but a guy who knows he’s got options just has a way different experience and worldview. The options can come from game, ecosystem, doesn’t matter, he is just in a different world than a guy who doesn’t. (“Scarcity” versus “abundance” are often discussed in these contexts.) A guy is only as good as his options.

I’m not as big a fan of “poly” identification because most people who identify as poly are ugly. Seems to be true of women as well as men. But with an otherwise attractive chick you want to keep on rotation, who might not want to do randoms, saying “poly” and finding another couple or couples to date can work.

I don’t get too hungup on the particular terms “poly” or “open” because I just don’t care that much. If “poly” lets me keep her on rotation for a longer period of time as a FWB / lover, because she knows my love is too great for only a single person, just like hers, that’s fine with me (and that has happened). Good sex without obligation on my part? Okay, yeah, sure, whatever it takes, yeah, I’m poly. Pass the joint, will you?

Nash says,

for me the “poly” community is a fucking mess. I live in CA and I am surrounded by these folks… and it’s an ugly shitshow. I watch guys “try” this all the time, and they are a fucking sad bunch, mostly.

Can’t disagree. That’s the average and the median.

The average poly person is a fuckup and idiot. I’m happy to acknowledge that. The worst advocates for poly are poly people themselves.

To me, game, poly, open, motorcycles, online dating, paying for sex… these are all tools. I’m trying to describe the tools, how they work, how they work for me, how they could work for others, how they are (frequently) mishandled. What tools a guy uses depends on his goals. Most guys flail because they have no tools and have given zero thought to any of this. I don’t use all tools all the time. I’ve not paid for quite a while. That isn’t because I’m too good for it or found the Buddha or whatever. It’s because I’ve been busy with more conventional pursuits, so I’ve not needed or wanted it.

Tools can be combined in various ways, too. Having an incredibly hot girl in a semi-paid relationship who then goes to sex clubs can multiply the effect of both tools (I only recommend thinking about paid relationships for guys who are 35+ and have more income than time. Younger guys should be out working on their game and improving their value, not paying for it.).

Game guys have found a great tool. But I think about how some of the other tools fit into game, and how game fits into some of the other tools. It’s interesting to me that most guys in game don’t write much about the other tools. Most guys who like and write about paying for it, don’t write about game.

I also don’t ask and don’t tell. When the recent girl asked me how many partners I’ve had, I didn’t leap forward to say (if she’d pressed I would’ve said). But I didn’t ask her the same question and when I told her I never ask that question of women, I meant it.

I am being something very close to inconsistent here, but that’s the way I am.

If you’re inconsistent and know it, that’s okay. I’m a little more worried about people who are wildly inconsistent and don’t know, also known as the entire human population.

That Krauser post helped me write this post. When guys talk past each other, it’s often good to go a couple levels deeper to try and figure out what is really going on (a subject I have more to say about in a future post). There may be some deeper synthesis beyond the surface.

Personally, I’m also less moved by pure novelty than some guys. Don’t get me wrong, I like novelty, but I don’t automatically lose interest in a chick after nailing her a couple times. This obviously depends on personality and other factors too. I got overly excited about this girl because our personalities mesh well.

Right now, society is in flux. Legal marriage does not work for a very large number of people. No one knows what comes next. “Bitter divorce that screws up the kids” is a very common outcome. So are dead marriages that stumble onwards from inertia. So are couples who don’t like each but stay together “for the sake of the kids.” A lot of guys start in game, but game, pursued actively enough, becomes a path into seeing the matrix.

Did it

Despite the “Story update on the 20-year-old,” we did get together late last night, which caused suffering today but was worth it. I’ve also remembered something I discovered a long time ago: the greater the logistical hassles, the more my interest declines in the girl. The older I get, the greater this effect.

Sometimes, however, this can have a paradoxical effect. I lose interest, and the girl gets more interested because she senses my uninterest. More often, I lose interest and so does she. That’s probably why I have so many long and pretty cold leads, and why sudden re-ignitions or techniques like this can work.

Speaking of the 20-year-old, there will likely be one or two days of overlap between her getting back and me leaving. No idea whether that will work. I’m still into her, but flakey or just logistically complicated girls turn me off over time.

I’m beat, but there are probably a handful of you curious about the (mostly surprise) outcome. I also have two pretty good pieces coming along, based on replies to comments.

Still not sure I’m actually going to see this one again.