Value & idiots

Another day, another great post from Nash, on “cool guy” game verus “real value” and how there are no (or few, in my view) hacks in game. I’m not going to talk about all the ways it’s right, because you can read it for yourself. I would qualify a few things.

Nash’s basic thesis is correct: the vast majority of guys need to focus on building value. If they don’t, they’ll likely fail, or at the very least achieve nothing like they should succeed. Game is about building value and then learning to deliver that value.

I love this community, but I would also like to help clean it up… brush some of the intellectual garbage off our streets.

That’s a fantastic, noble sentiment, but I also don’t think it’s going to happen. It’s not going to happen because lots of people want something for nothing. If they didn’t, we wouldn’t have adjustable rate mortgages, credit cards that aren’t paid off monthly, car loans that people can’t afford, pyramid schemes, lotteries, boiler room operations, astrology, and the innumerable other parasites out there that exist because people are stupid and want something for nothing. There will always be a market for “this one weird trick to help you pick up girls” or “top ten things REAL ALPHAS do and you should too.” Let’s fantasize about a trick instead of learning the only sustainable trick is hard fucking work (for most guys).

It’s also hard to clean up the community because most people are just stupid, or cognitively deficient, or whatever you want to call it.

She knows me very well, and can actually see all my real value (I used to be her boss, she has seen me “kill people” in business, she has seen my work drive real results in terms of big dollars, she has seen other girls chase me, she has seen my house, my art, all of it… this is real VALUE).

Genuinely stupid people generally can’t accomplish that. Stupid people (and even people of average intelligence) can’t write two- or three-thousand word, complex, Nash-level posts on the finer aspects of game.

Stupid people can tweet, post one-liners to Reddit, and leave stupid comments that miss the point. Stupid people aren’t going to read Nash’s two thousand words. They’re going to skip to YouTube videos. The people consuming garbage aren’t going to “get” Nash because they don’t have the attention span to read and understand him.

Even you, the reader of this, right now, probably doesn’t have the attention span. I know because I’ve written a lot about books. Without having done a lot of reading, I wouldn’t be able to write this blog. Most book mentions include an Amazon referral tag.

Out of curiosity, I check out how many guys buy the book.

Very few. It’s true that they might buy it from somewhere else, but I doubt it. Those who don’t buy it, can’t read it. Even those who do buy it probably don’t read it. I think more guys in the community, or at the edges of the community, are just stupid, than most of us like to admit.

Krauser has written about “no-hopers” in his books. There are more no-hopers out there. In my personal life, I’ve run into many of them, of both genders. “Why doesn’t she like me?” “Why won’t Mr. Hot Guy keep me around after sex?” Well, start by quitting sugar, going to the gym, and developing real hobbies. “But that’s hard!” “I know.”

Without getting into detail, I’ll say that I’ve done some teaching, recruiting, training, and mentoring. The mental capabilities of the average person, let alone the below-average person, are just much lower than the average high-IQ person thinks.

We all lives in bubbles. Including Nash and including me. One cool thing about game is that it gets us out of our bubbles. Somewhat. Unless a guy, like Nash, has a lot of exposure to the general public, he may be underestimating just how weak the average guy really is. The average guy doesn’t have the cognitive processing skills to read and comprehend Nash’s posts.

I’d argue 90% of the guys that say that… totally give a fuck. They really, really give a fuck. I know I give a fuck… I do. And saying “I give zero fucks” is a way of pretending. It’s completely transparent, and no one is convinced at all. It’s more lame “cool guy game” from guys that aren’t actually cool. And the community pushes this CONSTANTLY.

That’s true, but I think sometimes those guys who say “Don’t give a fuck” are actually saying, “Strive towards outcome independence, but realize that the average outcome will be failure.” It’s hard, almost paradoxical, to understand that the median and mode outcomes of game will be zero, while also realizing that it’s important to attempt. Attempting to achieve “outcome independence” is another way of saying, “Try not to give a fuck about any particular person.”

You should give a fuck, of course, about doing your best and building your value. But you should also realize that if you care deeply about every interaction, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Overwhelming disappointment that may crush you.

Being “chill” and “nonchalant” in the face of shit tests is also good.

It’s vital to give a fuck overall while also letting the dead leads go.

It’s hard to do. Sometimes it’s still a little bit hard for me.

Game is hard because, like many domains of human life, opposites can be simultaneously true. Give a fuck about improvement. Give a fuck about value. Give a fuck about doing the work. Give a fuck about doing the best you can in the moment. Don’t give a fuck about the outcome, if possible.

Don’t take advice from tweets. 140 or 240 characters is not enough for understanding.

Jesus Christ, text game

Jesus Christ. This text game breakdown is phenomenal. There are others like it on Riv’s blog and Nash’s blog. I used to think myself a good texter. No longer.

I do think I’m a functional texter, and most of my success comes from shutting the fuck up and less-is-more. But there is a level of insight around texting and text game that I do not have.

Guys who have found their way here from Reddit should pay attention: this is the kind of shit that almost never makes it onto Reddit. Experts get exasperated by Reddit’s beginner culture and migrate away.

“The female price of male pleasure” is missing one important thing: men and women are biologically different.

The female price of male pleasure” is missing one important thing: men and women are biologically different. For decades we’ve been hearing blank slate ideology from feminists. But men and women aren’t blank slates. We have similar, but distinct in notable ways, built-in preferences. This is basically obvious to anyone who has ever dated, but for some reason it’s been missing in feminist discourse for like 50 years.

That men and women have distinct preferences is obvious to anyone who has dated or anyone who has read evolutionary biology. Every guy who learns game unlearns blank-slate ideology and instead has to learn what women actually want. Most women do not want precisely what men want in the way that men want it.

At the same time, most women haven’t learned what actual men are like. In my opinion it’s insane that women get blackout drunk and go home with strangers and near-strangers, yet many do and the larger culture seems unwilling to tell them that no, this is not a good idea.

And then women are SHOCKED that men don’t want the same things they do. Kind of like how men are SHOCKED that women don’t behave or think like women in most visual porn (which is male fantasy).

How about we start by acknowledging the difference average preferences between men and women in terms of how, where, when, and why sex happens happens?

Get rid of the blank slate and we’ll all be better able to know each other. Stick to it, and we’re going to keep getting these missed signals and crappy hookups and drunkenness.

(The author does mention and talk about biology, which is a good start, but refuses to link it to psychology. And the failures of the medical profession to treat endometriosis and similar ailments seriously are also real. She is confused about “beauty standards,” though. Those exist because women are in competition with one another for the highest-status men. If men thought they could win sex competitions by wearing high heels and makeup, every straight guy would be at the makeup counter tomorrow. I’d be first in line.)

Guys are frustrated by sex advice like “Just be yourself” and “Be a gentleman” (AKA be asexual, then watch the girl go off with some caveman).  Women are frustrated when they realize guys are hornier and more feral than they often appear on the surface.

I think both men and women are paying the price for ignorance and failing to emphasize the desires, on average, of the opposite sex.

No one, or almost no one, is looking at the “Five whys” failure analysis of the Aziz Ansari situation. We can’t import the methods good software teams use to understand modes of failure. Evolutionary biology helps us understand those modes better, on a sexual level. Women are encouraged to act like naive waifs, like “Grace,” instead of being taught about agency and male desire. Men are taught to be overly timid and then they’re surprised when the least-timid among them are the most sexually successful.

What a mess. What’s it going to take to get a little honesty injected into this conversation?

Sex parties and sex clubs could be the next level of game

I’ve written about non-monogamy and sex clubs here, here, and in “How many women are open to sex parties and partner swapping? [intermediate/advanced].” There’s little reason to read this unless you are 1. already getting laid pretty regularly and 2. confident of your ability to to meet and sleep with new women.

Sex clubs are not a shortcut to having real game. Sex clubs are an extension of existing game. If you don’t have game and status already you will have a bad time if you try to bring your only, sole, single girl with you. Guys like me will try to pick her off. We might succeed. Not only that, but a guy who pins everything to one girl may go emotionally nuts the first time she has sex with another guy in front of him, or indicates that she wants sex with another guy. Before you bring a girl into that situation you need to know that there’s another one behind her if or when she bolts.

[I have finally gotten around to putting together a complete guide to sex clubs and game. If you want a structured, comprehensive look at how this world works, check out the book.] 

In my view, the basic dynamic of sex parties is guys exchanging hot females with a minimal amount of logistical bother. That’s it. People overcomplicate and overthink this. You have a hot girl. I have a hot girl. Let’s trade. The girl obviously has to like the other guy well enough (or want to fuck the girl).

This is the fundamental dynamic. It’s an exchange of value for value. I get more novelty than I’d have otherwise. You get more novelty than you’d have otherwise. Win-win. Fail to bring the value and you will likely fail at the sex club. Guys who have a bad time of game in general will also have a bad time if they manage to convince their one and only partner to come to a sex club with them.

Single women will sometimes come to sex clubs, and sometimes even attractive single women will come. Many guys will of course desire the single women for a threesome, and guys with sufficiently high status and good game are more likely to get them. Single women who are highly open to experience, highly bisexual, or with very high sex drives are the only ones likely to attend. Most women, of course, don’t do shit unless there is a guy ready to lead them. Exceptions tend to be ultra-high libido. Like, I’ve had a fairly long-term, off-and-on FWB who really, seriously wants to have sex twice a day, every day. You, the man reading this, may think, “Oh great mate, sign me up, I’d love to shag that much too.” The vast majority of guys, especially guys over the age of 25, will eventually be knackered by a really persistent woman, and she’s figured that out, so she needs multiple boyfriends or FWBs.

But she’s exceptional and unusual. Typical women at sex parties are brought by their primary partners. Typical guys want to swap with a girl who is at least on the level of the girl they’ve brought. It’s about exchanging value.

The basics of game still apply. Strong masculine identity and strong social skills lead to good outcomes. At parties and clubs lots of guys try to get “something for nothing” by offering to swap with couples nowhere near their level. Usually they are declined. Often by me. If you bring a girl to a sex party, be ready to say “no.” Be ready to lead.

Be ready to lead.

Be ready to lead. I know I’ve just written that three times in a row, but game-aware guys know that very few chicks will lead. They will really really not lead in most group sex situations. Some chicks will lead themselves a little bit more as they get relaxed and into the sex zone, but most won’t at the beginning. The fewer the people, the worse most chicks are at leading. So you, the man, will have to have the social deftness to make propositions and accept when they’re rejected. And when they’re accepted, which is scarier for some guys.

Most cities have a “scene” of some kind. I don’t know your city so I don’t know what it entails. In your city there will likely be a core nucleus of regulars, organizers, and people who make things happen. Show up enough and you will become one of them. If you’re a high-value guy who regularly brings hot chicks, you’ll be invited to events solo.

The worst clubs and parties are empty or filled with fatties. I walk away from those events. When I use online app matcher systems, I emphasize my interests in lifting and fitness, and this acts as a fattie repulsion system. Not perfectly, but well enough.

At the best events there are many hot couples or, more rarely, single unicorns. The hotter you are, the better you do. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Fantasize about a party full of gorgeous women aching for wild sex with you, but know that those don’t exist in real life. Because people are there for sex, guys can’t hold out much in the way of resources and commitment to attract women. What RP guys call “beta” or “niceguy” game works poorly.

Lots of threeways have happened with women or couples I’ve met through the scene. If you’re a reliable guy who brings hot girls to the parties and clubs, you’ll be in demand by other couples who want to swap. As you should know from reading Nancy Friday or some female erotica, lots of women fantasize about a threesome with two guys. Keep an eye out and you’ll find other guys, possibly game-aware, who may become your go-to “threesome friend.” You bring him in when you need a guy and vice-versa. It’s all about the value. If you’re providing value and he’s providing value, you’re golden.

Most guys are poorly equipped, psychologically and physically, for this role. But the right guy can be great. Like I said, he brings chicks, you bring chicks. He may have game, or he may just have a good social circle and persistence.

And, as for her, most girls know that most men can’t even articulate the girl’s fantasies, let alone fulfill them. Being able to move her from fantasy to reality will blow her mind and simultaneously draw her into your world. “Wait!” you might be thinking, “How is it that a threesome with another guy will bring her closer to you?”

Simple: she’s likely never been there before, and she knows that most guys will freak out if they hear her real fantasies. So any guy who can bring them up, listen without judgment, or even propose the kind of sex she’s dreamed about must be special. It takes social finesse to make these things happen, and she’ll know you have it, whereas other guys don’t.

Most women are very scared to share their fantasies. They fear, legitimately, that guys will shame them. Being a guy who doesn’t ever slut shame and lets her explore her bedroom desires will set you apart.

If you have a regular, uncommitted FWB you don’t want for an LTR, try bringing her. Maybe you’ll hate it. But it can be next-level game if you have the right stuff for it.

Most couples who come will be in committed relationships and they’ll be bored with each other. If you’re the guy who consistently brings in new hot women, you will be exceptional. You will be a star.

Some women will say no but many will be intrigued. I’ve been told many things. Like:

  • You are too experimental.
  • You are disgusting.
  • I would never do something like that.
  • I’m not that kind of girl.
  • I want a guy who respects me.

The first one is my fave. About a quarter of chicks have rejected me outright when I’ve proposed a sex club. I only do that after I’ve been sleeping with them for at least a couple weeks. About a quarter have been excited and enthusiastic and don’t need convincing. About half have been uncertain, but they will usually go if I encourage them and promise that we’ll start slow.

Many sex parties and clubs will pretend to be egalitarian and accept people of all body types. Ignore the rhetoric. The reality is that sexual marketplace value operates at sex clubs just like it does everywhere else. You cannot evade it. Using sex clubs to try to avoid having basic value and game will backfire and waste time. Guys who learn the game realize they need two things: value and a value delivery mechanism. Fail in either and the game won’t work. At the clubs, you will very rarely see young girls who like the degradation of sex with vile men, but that is rare. Most women assess men’s sex appeal in all the ways RP guys already know.

It’s not for all guys but, except for Blackdragon, I see no one writing about this. It’s a kind of ecosystem game that I’ve not seen players write about. But to me, it’s an extension of other kinds of game that can be much faster than opening girls on the street or online. But like I keep saying, it is not a shortcut. Try using it as a shortcut and you will be burned.

You may have heard, “A man is only as monogamous as his options.” Few men with good options choose monogamy. Once you get to that stage…. why not keep going? Make those options work for you, instead of hiding who you want to be?

If you have gotten this far, read the book already.

Frame. And why non-monogamy helps make me more diligent about diet and body

I’ve written about why sugar is evil and have alluded to the much-discussed need for guys to lift, so I won’t belabor those points here. Every guy who gets into the game or Red Pill worlds learns about why lifting and style are important, and if you don’t know why by now I hope you found this via a Google search because I don’t know what to tell you otherwise.

Non-monogamy has made me more diligent than the average game guy about diet, swimming, lifting, and yoga.

Like virtually all people who consciously work to quit sugar, at first the discipline necessary is very hard, but over time habits set in and I eventually stopped missing sugar. I learned to taste real food again and got in the Sunday meal-prep practice to ensure that I wasn’t as tempted by easy, quick and horrific foods during the work week.

As guys who get deeply into the game know, the initial parts of game are about attraction and dominance, but most chicks tell themselves that they can eventually tame the bad boy and turn him into a long-term provider-guy (that is basically the plot of all romance novels and romance novels are porn for women: citation one and citation two). Even among players who imply or even explicitly say that they’re only in it for the casual sex, lots of women will fantasize about locking those guys down long-term, or the women will attempt it, as long as the guy has an okay job.

Most normal women want children (eventually, in the case of a very young girl) and most normal women also want to be financially subsidized by a guy. If the guy is also hot and good in bed, that’s a plus. This conflict between short-term hots and long-term provision is fundamental and explained by evolutionary biology.

So even among women who are being picked up on the street, there is an element of “will this guy be my long-term provider?” that arises at some point. Initially it may be and probably will be all about the seduction and the hot sex, and most guys underperform in being hot, dominant, and playful because society teaches them to do the opposite.

But over time women have a biological need to find guys to have kids with and subsidize them and their kids. That’s part of the reason long-term, undefined, FWBs-type relationships are so uncommon. Few chicks will allow them, at least past the age of 25. Even if they do, they will drop the FWB when they find a hot-enough provider guy.

(If you’re dating a chick under the age of 25 in a contemporary Western country, you can ignore the last two paragraphs, because chicks that age are all about the feelz and the hot sex.)

At sex parties, the provider part of the equation goes away almost entirely, at least for a night of passion (and the provider part, as I said, is not relevant for most chicks under the age of 25 in contemporary Western countries). The chick probably already has a primary partner who she evaluates in part for his material characteristics. The new guy needs to primarily be a hot sex guy. So she’s evaluating the guy much more along the physical lines than even a normal chick during pickup.

That’s why I’m so hardcore about the sugar thing and so hardcore about lifting weights, swimming, and lately yoga (post on that coming soon). If you’re going to do sex clubs and non-monogamy, the need for good looks and strong sexual skills go up, because chicks aren’t much evaluating you, even subconsciously, as a long-term provider guy. It becomes all about the sex.

In the sex clubs, it’s also common to strip, pretty quickly, to underwear. She will see you fucking your main girl, too, so she will be able to evaluate your body and sex quality in a very tangible, immediate way. Hot guys with good sex skills get more swap choices.

In contrast, most pickup and online dating is conducted primarily clothed. She can obviously tell some things about your body, but by the time she sees you nude she will probably already have crossed the sex rubicon or gotten close to it. She can also likely tell herself a story about how she can turn you into a provider long term, at least if she really likes you.

Or she’s just drunk and horny and doesn’t care.

For all humans, though, attraction starts with the body. Just like it does online. Online, women mostly judge your pictures, and I’m not even going to link to my piece about why guys doing online dating need to learn basic photography.

Improve your body and you will do better. It is possible for attractive guys in particular to have no game and fail, but it’s much less likely.

FRAME

Bringing women into sex clubs and parties also brings them deeply into a frame outside the mainstream. Those girls will lose their mainstream frame and gain a “sex-positive” frame (you can frame the frame more negatively, if you want). Some will enter that frame temporarily, then go back to conventional frames; that’s what happened to the woman I write about in “Women want to follow your lead: a story about a woman presenting two ways.” This is actually a very common story because most women want a family and children at some point, and going to sex clubs is not overly compatible with family and children: there is too much jealousy, competition, and risk for most couples to make that work. There are some women who don’t want kids or have already had them, and they are often the glue holding a club or a city’s scene together. Most women over age 40 aren’t objects of intense desire, so their presence or absence isn’t as important.

I’m rambling, as I tend to do, but point is that many women can be led into the sex club frame, but as they begin to think long term they will also fall out of that frame. The diet and lifting help a lot with the initial attraction and dominance parts of the seduction, but for women they’re less important for long-term compatibility. Most people, given enough time, almost stop noticing each other’s physical attractiveness, which is part of the reason long-term relationships are in my view so hard.

So a chick will think about the long-term project, realize I’m not good for that, and we’ll break up. Often it’s better if I break up with her or even seed the idea that she should find a father/husband guy who isn’t going to be me, no matter what she does. Being honest in this way means that the chick is less likely to do an angry, scorched-earth breakup because she thinks she’s been lied to. I don’t talk about long-term life goals on second dates but somewhere in there I give chicks my theory of relationships and that helps them decide what to do with or about me.

Many of those girls will leave to pursue a long-term relationship guy. Sometimes the things with that guy works out. Sometimes they don’t. When they don’t, they will often swing back around to me. Fine with me. I often wish girls good luck when they go.

The smartest and most conscientious women know and understand the gap between fun sex guys and long-term guys. They know the two don’t always overlap. And when it comes down to it, they choose the long-term play.

How many women are open to sex parties and partner swapping? [intermediate/advanced]

This is intermediate and advanced shit that beginners shouldn’t be reading. If you don’t have regular girls on rotation, go read something else.

Nash and I have a dialogue about women’s propensities towards group sex in the comments section of Women want to follow your lead: a story about a woman presenting two ways:

So you think 75% of women are open to sex parties and partner swapping?

Wow.

I’m tempted to argue… But I trust your POV on this topic. And, I am likely one of the guys that “doesn’t get it” in this regard.

And I know every girl likes to be choked. Like 98%. And I’ve seen guys surprised by that, when it’s totally normal for me.

Is it 75%? I don’t know and it’s hard to say. If you did a survey, I bet only something like 10% of women be willing to say that they’re open to group sex. I’ve said this before, but of the women I’ve propositioned for a club or party, about 25% have been eager and excited, about 50% uncertain, and about 25% have had been a hard “no,” which usually precipitates a breakup because I’m not willing to be monogamous again.

But that’s about 75% of the women I’ve already been sleeping with long enough to ask the question… so it’s not a random sample at all. Chicks who are very reserved, very sex negative, very interested in monogamy, and very unwilling to have pretty quick sex don’t like me and I don’t like them. They are out there, but you never read about them in pickup writing because they don’t respond to street come-ons and online they’re very slow-moving. I filter out prudes, hard, though this is not the same thing as filtering out girls who might take some time.

So I don’t know how many women are open to sex parties. I’m 100% sure, however, that far more women are interested than would admit it in public or to their boyfriends. It’s also true that, in my experience, many women who initially say no will come around to it. First they say no. Then they agree to go to one but do not want to touch or play with others. And then it slowly amps up. All players are familiar with this. So is any guy who ever dated a girl in high school or just an experienced girl. Most chicks won’t jump straight into things and need some leadup and then some processing time.

Women also like to follow. So a lot of women who have already invested in a guy and who are used to the guy leading will be open. The most common reaction I’ve gotten to women who’ve gone with me to a club or party is, “I never thought I would do that!!!! OMG!!!!” Some experience sub drop the next day, so care and reassurance is important. Most chicks have no internal feeling gauges so they need a man to reassure and lead them.

And of course most women who go to sex clubs will then lie to their future boyfriends and husbands about them, for the obvious reasons.

I’m guessing that most women who are willing to be picked up on the street would also be willing to go to a sex club.

Then Nash said,

I can say that most women I’ve picked up HAVE been to a strip club. Not the same as a sex club, but it’s true. And about 50% of girls I’ve asked are very clear what kind of girl they would pick out at a strip club (that’s a fun question to ask a girl).

>> Hard to say. Probably if you did a survey, only 10% of women be willing to say that they’re open.

Mostly… we never care what women say when asked directly. Particularly in a group/public setting. It’s more about if you get them in the right mood… what might they say.

A woman’s “truth” changes like the wind. You have to catch her in the right moment to know her potential.

>> I’m 100% sure, however, that far more women are interested than would admit it in public or to their boyfriends.

Another game I play sometimes with women is to talk about 3somes, but turn the question around. I’ll tell a girl that most guys have fantasized about being w/ two girls. And then I say, “but most guys don’t think much about a girl being w/ two guys.” And then, I’ll ask if she’s ever fantasized about that. Again, hard to say if the answer you get is real…

I’m not into “MMF” 3somes myself, but it’s a way to get into the grit of a girls sexual mind.

But this leads me to a similar place in our understanding of women’s minds/sexualitites… would she like to be DP’d? Would she go to a sex club… and swap partners? The truth is guaranteed to be that this is all more common than most men would expect.

But I think your “women like to follow” comment is very much on point. Without a man to work out logistics and to push for it… the super kinky stuff is less likely to happen.

You can see why I’m excerpting all of this. And that strip club question is good. I’m not a strip club person and think I’ve only gone with women in tow. Personally, I’ve found strip clubs expensive and not very gratifying, so once I got into the BDSM and adjacent worlds I pretty much stopped going. Lots of strippers go to sex positive events anyway, so I can meet them outside of work.

I personally would prefer FMF threesomes, like pretty much every straight guy, but I have a male “threesome buddy” (sounds gay but isn’t) who I tend to trade chicks with. When I have a chick who wants a threesome with two dudes, I get my buddy to meet up and if everyone clicks we do it.

He does the same w/ me.

It’s a pretty baller move because most chicks are too scared to accomplish any of the things they really want. So they find a guy who makes it happen for them and they’re amazed.

But my real goal is a kind of “trade:” MFM for FMF. It doesn’t always work. Lots of chicks back out. It helps to say, “Which of your female friends do you most want to have a threesome with?” A guy can’t make it an iron-clad contract because chicks don’t think that way. But a guy can do a trade-off thing. It’s also possible to pickup a third chick together (I’ve done that).

Most of these things require deft male leadership. The guy can’t be too pushy but he also can’t be a wet noodle. Most chicks need to ease into kinky stuff. Not all. I’ve also seen chicks just go into feral beast mode the moment they’re set loose in a swingers club. A typical girl needs some comfort and slow escalation.

It’s not that different from pickup or online dating… some women will just do a one-drink-then-fuck, or a same-day lay, but typically they need some comfort as well as cocky-funny. It pays to play to the typical experience unless a given woman demonstrates otherwise via her words or her extreme compliance.

There is also the question of why do this at all? I do it firstly because I think group sex is hot. Secondly I’m not interested in monogamy, probably ever, and I don’t think it’s practical for most people today. Most people who proclaim that they’re monogamists are actually serial monogamists / serial polygamists, so their “monogamy” is only time-limited anyway. Blackdragon blog covers this in more detail, and thank you to however posted a link to it. Thirdly, lots of chicks really dig it too and they fantasize about it, so let’s be cool and make it happen.

Mostly I do it for me. Most people lie about their sex lives and desires. They get frustrated with their partners because their partners are lying too. In my view this short-circuits most of the lying.

If you want to know why people are tuned to lie to themselves, there is a new book, The Elephant in the Brain: Hidden Motives in Everyday Life, covering it. I’m starting to recommend it to chicks, but of course most chicks are too addled by their smartphones to read an entire book.

In short, most women are probably open to some kind of group sex experience but they need a guy to lead to make it happen. Kinda like everything else in intersex dynamics.

The deep psychology that keeps men in the game

I think most basic guys who get into game just want to find a pretty, acceptable girlfriend, and when they find one they drop off. Maybe they eventually break up, only to start the cycle anew. Or they have kids, and that’s another set of issues not conducive to game writing.

Then there are the guys who get into the game, maybe to find a girlfriend or maybe to just sleep with a lot of women, and they succeed: over time, they have amazing and awful experiences and they rack notches. They have amazing stories and many pleasures (as well as many pains).

Eventually racking notches loses some of its appeal. Most women are not that good outside of bed; they’re annoying to be around; they themselves lose their personal discipline; and the Coolidge Effect kicks in. So guys start to feel what I call “the Groundhog Day effect,” where nailing yet another rando loses some of its thrill. SOME. Not all of course. Most intelligent guys, sooner or later, also want to create something more lasting than random bangs. Usually that means kids. Often the desire for a family becomes acute in the mid 30s to early 40s… one can imagine biological reasoning for that, or the realities of aging and death as one’s parents die or become elderly and infirm. A lot of guys who marry or de-facto marry in their 20s do the opposite and seem to break up in the 35 – 40 period, maybe because they realize their opportunities to relatively easily close 20-something women are going to dwindle. There is a “wall” for men as well as women, though the male wall is further out.

(Yes, I know, the Internet is full of 45- and 55-year-old guys with their HB9 24-year-old girlfriends… maybe… I’m sure it happens, and it’s not impossible, but I don’t see much of it in my own life.)

Maybe the apotheosis of the “pack it in” guys is Neil Strauss, since he wrote The Game and then wrote The Truth, which can be read many ways… one being that he got tired of the game. His own psychology or biology were tired of the chase.

Granted, he is also a famous millionaire and married a 20-something swimsuit model. [Addendum: He seems also to have filed for divorce, so so much for Strauss as an example of quitting the game.]

We have two classes of guys so far: the ones just looking for an okay girlfriend, then the ones who do it for three to ten years before deciding to have kids or otherwise change.

Then there are guys who are in it for the long haul.

They are the guys who write the most intense blogs for long periods of time. Then the blog becomes fodder for a book. Most guys write for a while then disappear into monogamy or kids… or boredom with only speaking to pseudonymous guys online: I’m likely to disappear at some point; I don’t make money doing this, will never start a coaching business, and will run out of stuff to say. Yes, there is daily outrage against men in the news, and I’m prone to writing about that, but I think I will quit due to diminishing returns. There is only so much news outrage before outrage fatigue sets in.

The long haul guys are Krauser, Tom Torero, Blackdragon, probably some other guys I’m not aware of (although Blackdragon is writing more about relationships and less about game as such). Leave comments with others I’m leaving out. For them game seems like a total life practice and purpose, not a phase. Seduction is their art… or their demon.

Art or demon? In a comment to another post, I said that I wonder about the psychology of some of the hardest-core game guys. Neil Strauss wrote about his own psychological demons in The Truth. Tucker Max isn’t exactly a game guy but he too has written about his demons, especially as they relate to his messed-up mother. Krauser has written about his domineering mother too (very similar to Max and Strauss, and this may be a pattern worth exploring). I don’t want to go all Freudian, but I have to think about whether some of the more extreme cases of long-term game obsession come from bad places in childhood.

And, specifically, from men with bad mothers. Max, or his therapist, thinks there’s a psychological pattern. Does it take being somewhat messed up to really succeed at the highest levels of conscious game? Nash’s post “Tom Torero is a Thief | Street Hustle Book Review” got me thinking about these issues… be sure to read the fruitful comments as well. I don’t know what to make of the post because I don’t know Torero personally and he doesn’t seem immediately slimy to me, but what Nash says isn’t impossible.

Psychological explanations about declining long-term game motivation, loneliness, and a desire for substance are easy to dismiss as “blue pill” thinking, but I don’t think all of psychology is “blue pill.” I don’t even think the drive to pair-bond, which most people experience in various ways, is BP. Many BP guys suffer from oneitis because they can’t do any better, but some RP guys get tired of the game, of female bullshit, and the tedium of the chase. Even the joy of sleeping with a new chick can become a drug. Drug metaphors are common in game. Drugs can lead to abuse and the need for abstention and, ultimately, recovery.

To guys who’ve never had a lot of women, the last paragraph may sound like BS. So be it. Unless you’ve had five+ years of active game or sexual success, though, I don’t want to hear your arguments.

Get the experience, then you can tell me it’s BS.

Actually, I want you to have five+ years and be over age 30. Contemporary guys aren’t ready to have families and that kind of thing until at least age 30, more likely age 35. If you are age 21 or 26… talk to me in ten years. Enjoy chasing skirt today. I’m in favor of skirt chasing and there are millions of chicks out there who are actually thin and also want to get f**ked. Go seduce them, promise you’ll pull out, then don’t.

This has turned into a hell of a ramble post, but I’m going to keep going.

Almost all the guys in game, or realistically writing about game because I don’t know anything about the guys whose writing I haven’t encountered, have a common narrative: they were sexual nobodies or nonstarters in high school and usually college. Some didn’t get going in earnest until age 30 or later. Often they were or are jealous of their more successful-seeming rivals. Usually they don’t understand women’s feral sexual nature and are shocked to discover it, as shocked as Europeans finding the new world. They don’t understand that evolutionary psychology compels women to have an official purity narrative layered on top of their actual sex drive and behaviors. They learn game and change their lives enormously.

That is a common narrative for game guys and it isn’t my narrative. I’m coming from a world where I’ve probably had above-average success for most of my life. I’ve had struggles and I still struggle, and I am not laying chicks like a Hollywood actor, but I have done and am doing fine. Positive feelings and thinking tends to beget more positive feeling and thinking. To me, game formalized a lot of things I already sensed and helped me improve weak points. But I am not reacting against extreme failures in my past, or against an acute sense of missing out.

So my past and key reference experiences are different than the game guys I’ve read. I did “okay” in high school. At the time I perceived it to be below average, but now I realize I was above average, though not at the very peak. In retrospect I had a lot of problems with pedestalizing, weak eye contact, and, during initial encounters, subservient behaviors. But I had a lot of advantages from sports teams, reading, and decent willingness to approach (what would now be called “warm approach” in a school, university, or work environment). Given enough green lights I would escalate up to sex. I had a reasonable number of girlfriends and what I would now call positive reference experiences. Many guys get into the game because they feel they underperformed through most of their lives.

In college no one knew about “the game,” and while I wouldn’t call myself one of the ultra-high-achieving naturals, I did fine. I kept up with sports discipline, so I looked better than most guys. I did the default baggy college guy outfit and although it worked fine in retrospect I should’ve tuned what I wore better (in “fashion,” 10% of the effort gets at least 80% of the value). I relied on pure body more than fashion. I also wish I’d learned about black iron compound lifting earlier. At the time I believed that fancy Nautilus machines were safer and better. They’re more advanced and technological, right? WRONG. But I didn’t know better then. I also thought fat was bad and carbs were good, because that was the dominant thinking at the time and the government must be right. Fat makes you fat, right?

Hahahaha, I know, in retrospect I’m laughing at my naiveté too. I didn’t know any better. Neither did many other people.

But I tolerated rejection tolerably well and by the time I was in college I had a pretty simple setup: I figured out early on that I should stock beer, vodka, and a mixer. My strategy was simple: “Come over to the dorm [or house] for a beer later.” Drink a beer or two, listen to music, watch a movie, escalate. When you are surrounded by young hot unencumbered girls… a minimal amount of game can be very powerful.

I bobbled lots of stuff and didn’t persist through LMR. One of the most beautiful girls I ever tried for came over, took off her shirt, but said no to more, and for some reason I just stopped pursuing her. Years later she said she had a huge crush on me and wanted to know why I didn’t like her back. I told her that I didn’t think she liked me. In college opportunities for sex with hot chicks are just there, like breathing. Later in life, they typically must be pursued.

There are many other missed opportunity stories I could tell, but I had a strategy of sorts that was good enough and it was better than most guys. Game is often like running from a bear: you don’t have to be the fastest, you just have to be faster than the other guys. College guys are real slow. I’m sure that if I posted many of the things I did and said to the Internet, an army of couch-PUAs would tell me everything I did wrong, but it worked well enough.

Colleges basically set up warm approaches. Middle class and middle class+ college kids also have nothing better to do besides sit around and gossip, so I got a reputation as a “player,” which of course helped me with like 80% of girls. The reputation wasn’t really deserved, since I just ran the simple algorithm… but I wasn’t complaining either.

I also didn’t know how to keep girls on rotation, so if a girl wanted to be my “girlfriend” I would say yes, and “be her boyfriend,” most often until I got bored with her, at which point I’d suddenly break up with her and she would cry, because I didn’t know how to set appropriate expectations. Or she’d eventually catch me with another girl and get angry. I had a couple of those sitcom-y conversations where the girl would say, “But you’re my boyfriend, how could you do this to me?” and I would reply, “Because I knew that if I didn’t, you wouldn’t have sex with me | would stop having sex with me.” She would be… confused, more than anything, I think.

The right answer, of course, is to say, “I’m seeking something casual and we’re both in college and we’re too young to get serious…” but I wasn’t that sophisticated and back then no one was talking about poly or open relationships. I did intuit how to be sex positive, albeit without knowing that term. Not slut-shaming girls and being the chill guy they can come to for sex that won’t get back to their friends was super smart.

I also had not come to my fundamental realization, that there are really only two kinds of relationships: relationships with a woman with whom you plan to have kids… and all other kinds of relationships. When I came to understand that, much became clear that had previously been mysterious. Have you knocked her up, or would you? That’s one thing. Would you not, or not deliberately? That’s another.

Because of my sex-or-nothing attitude in later college, I became a somewhat polarizing person, as I (eventually) learned not to be faux friends with girls I actually wanted to sleep with. At the start of college I was… not so good at this and did some embarrassing things.

After college I somehow got the idea that it was time to “get serious” and “settle down.” Don’t ask me how or why. I don’t know. Other guys did similar things. If you love to raw dog you may wind up with kids earlier than you intend.

Overall I did well for a long time and that must have affected me and my expectations. Like I said, at the time I didn’t know about the joy of the barbell, and I didn’t formally know or intuitively understand that neither men nor women have much control over who they’re attracted to. Women’s attraction is often sub-verbal, visceral, and not optional.

Evolutionary biology is the foundation of game: a fact so important that I have to keep saying it. Attraction starts of course with looks and the body, which is why every RP and game writer says that lifting (or any exercise really) is such a vital place to start. Women don’t have much control over attraction… so maximize what you can control. That starts with the body’s motions and what a guy puts in his body.

It doesn’t end there and I’ve seen really attractive guys underperform because of personality flaws, being too passive/needy, etc. Having the whole package is best but not an option for most guys, since we have to develop what we have. Most guys never study the game properly.

The other side, of course, is that men only have so much choice in who we’re attracted to. Women wear makeup, hit the gym, choose high heels, etc. because they know they’re in competition for the very top guys. Every time I read a woman write about how women should quit high heels I laugh. Go ahead and do it… but your competitors won’t… and their raised, wiggling asses will attract the eyes of men.

Women know guys like youth, health, fertility cues, etc., even if no woman who isn’t an evolutionary biologist would use those terms. A given woman may defect from optimal strategy but if she does the higher-value guys will get taken by women who don’t defect, so the vast majority of women conform to male preferences… like guys who want to get laid conform to female preferences. You may have seen defectors who cut their hair short, quit shaving, and go vegan. Actually I only see them if they’re in my way, otherwise they’re pretty much invisible to me, like they are to the vast majority of straight guys.

Part of the game is learning those opposite-sex preferences. I didn’t know them in high school or college but I learned them well enough, and the formal component came later. It’s not necessary to know the formal component (virtually no men who have ever lived and reproduced knew it) but it will help, just like it’s possible to dominate a high school basketball court without lifting, but lifting will make any athlete better.

I wonder about the psychological effects of being a relative outcast during the formative years. I have my own psychological quirks, but they don’t stem from utter failure when I was young, which seems like such a common game origin story. A lot of guys who get into game at age 30+ may be going through a phase that I started when I was like age 18.

This is not a “shame guys” post, as I think everyone should pursue happiness and satisfaction as they see fit. In some sense I will likely always be in the game as long as I am physically viable, since I’m not interested in total monogamy and likely never will be.

How much tail does one need before one is basically satiated? When I am 50 or 55 or 60 will I still want to be stopping women and saying that I have to say that they’re cute, but they look like they’re ready for a yoga class? Are they poseurs or really going? Etc. I have seen the old people at the sex clubs and they don’t seem to be having fun and few of the younger people want them there.

Like most normal people, I’m also subject to feelings of loneliness. Friends help with that but are not a panacea. I’ve chosen a weirder life course than most people around me, and that makes having friends and maintaining friendships harder. Most people around me are married. Those who aren’t, are almost all divorced (and then most often re-married). I’m the guy at weddings and holidays without a spouse… or with an “inappropriate” date. Yes, I know that I shouldn’t care and should be a proud lone wolf, but I haven’t gotten to where I am in the business world by ignoring social cues. Almost no one gets to the top alone. The further up you go, the more soft and people skills matter. I’m good enough to mostly get away with my other life, but I can also listen to what people say.

I don’t think I have the psychology to be permanently in the game. I wonder about the guys who are in it for decades. Do they get bored? Do they wonder if there’s anything greater out there? Have their formative experiences so scarred them that, once in game, they can’t get out? I’m clearly not anti-game or anti-sex, but I wonder about these issues. Maybe I’m in a weird place because I’ve also already done some of the empire-building that is common to guys starting around ages 35 – 40.

I have a job and no desire to turn game into money. I don’t see sex as a validation of who or what I am. That’s part of the reason I’m happy paying for it, if the circumstances are right. Though I haven’t paid for it for a while, because I’ve been seeing women pretty steadily. To me paying or not paying for it isn’t a matter of pride. To me, the physical pleasure of sex is the best part. I’m susceptible to that feeling of intimacy and closeness that comes from sex, even though my conscious self knows it’s a lie. I don’t chase skirt for the ego trip (as best I can tell). There seem to be some number of guys writing about the game who want to f**k pretty girls just to see if they can and just to then say that they can do it. My motivations are more immediate and physical.

Most of the guys I know who have kids and a strong relationship are much more pleased than the guys without. We evolved to live around families and to raise kids. Most men who never do that are broken… “most” but not all… if you are a man who doesn’t want kids and know you’d be a lousy father don’t have them: enough unwanted children live in the world already.

A lot of people who never have a family, something is either wrong with their heads from an early age or goes wrong as the loneliness of transient f**ks messes with their heads over time. I use the phrase “a lot of people” instead of “all people” deliberately: you may be an exception. In human affairs, there are always exceptions, but you may also be lying to yourself and thinking you are the exception. Most of this ramble is targeted at guys over age 30 and likely over age 35. If you are 25 and have gotten this far, just bookmark this page and come back in five or ten years. For now, go bang all the hot chicks you can. Younger guys need the experience and need to get the call of the wild out.

Older guys, though, older guys who have been plowing a lot of chicks… who find themselves looking at the ceiling after the latest random is passing out next to him… who want to build the future by having a family… you guys are wondering about the long-term psychology, like I am. This ramble is for you. It does not tell you what to do, for that is not my way. It does attempt to help you think about what the good life is. The good life at age 24, may not be the good life at age 40. Maybe, though, you are a pickup artist. Artists are often maniacs, obsessed with their art until they die. If that is you, so be it.