Responsibility and later seduction. Internal congruence

Another topic that gets no play in the Red Pill and seduction communities, cause most guys don’t get to this later stage, it is not good to trifle with women who are heavily investing in you. This damages the woman and while it is psychologically appealing to the guy (it’s nice to have the attention and desire you can return… or not), but it creates bad feelings and outcomes. Power over women who invest happens after the guy gets game and deploys it effectively, meaning that most guys never get it and this post is not for them, so this subject confuses them, like stories about a culture they’ve never visited and can’t believe exists.

I know the logical counter to this point (about the wisdom of refusing or discouraging investment that won’t be reciprocated)… “But chicks do this all the time!” True, true. But mature chicks don’t encourage male investment and male suitors who don’t interest them. Immature chicks… greedy chicks… they will, and that’s why so many younger guys have problems with the “friend zone” and perceived female uncertainty. Younger guys don’t follow the algorithm and don’t effectively sort girls into ones who might f**k and ones who won’t. I didn’t either when I was young & stupid, not to worry. I was afraid of “no,” when “no” is a gift, a gift of my time & attention so that I can direct them consciously into better things.

Mature guys… also don’t spend a lot of time and investment in women who are unlikely to be lovers. If a woman isn’t interested… the guy withdraws and finds a woman who is. Many chicks, if attention and gifts are foisted on them by inept men, will accept those… but if you are foisting gifts on a woman who hasn’t earned them, then you kinda deserve what you get. Immature guys believe gifts and attention should be rewarded with sex… when it’s actually closer to the other way around. No one in our female-dominated culture discusses to this.

This gets me to my point… when a woman’s emotions and sex habits are connecting and converging into you… it is not good to trifle with her, lead her on, and jerk her around. You will damage her, and inflict needless cruelty, and for what? If you have decent game, the sex part may be challenging, but it shouldn’t be infinitely so.

Some dysfunctional women prematurely invest when they shouldn’t, or they can’t help themselves because the man is unusual and matches their interest, or is much higher SMV than they are. If she does that… it is not your fault. But you should let go, want to let go, chicks who are deeply converting but who you don’t fancy in that way. At least tell them that you’re not going to be their boyfriend but can be their lover. Set expectations.

This is emerging from my own experiences and from conversation with a player who is interested in non-monogamy and who has found a woman who has also been searching for this her entire life, searching for a way to reconcile mind and body, emotions and physicality. Like libido girl and a number of others I’ve met, she craves the novelty of new sex… but wants a relationship too. Most guys, if they advance from casual sex into something more structured with a woman, won’t want a woman like this (they really want a woman who will be monogamous to them). There are a lot of pretend non-monogamous guys, and even more strictly monogamous guys (when you get down to it). Women who are sexually adventurous but with hearts and the desire to pair-bond… it’s actually not easy for them. Even with monogamous women, their real, true, and full investment is intense. For the bulk of guys who have never experienced the intensity of female emotional and sexual investment…. this issue will be invisible. Like “how to end it” with a woman. It’s advanced stuff. Beginners mistake compassion for weakness. Don’t worry, I did too, once.

I’m against being mean to people. Yes, women will sometimes be mean to you, they will try to take value from you without giving it in return. Yes, it is sometimes appropriate to be mean to people, or direct in a way that is seen as mean. But what is perceived as mean or cruel is often just a balancing of the scales of value.

Notice what I am NOT doing. I am not arguing against casual sex (it would be funny if I did, given my history). I am not arguing against deepening relationships with women. I am not arguing that women are innocent damsels (they are not, and the innocent damsel trope is a lie men tell themselves in order to be p***y… in the real world, almost no one is “innocent”). “Beyond casual sex” is more fun than just f**king strangers in my view. But… I am arguing that it’s bad for you and for the woman to let a woman deeply invest in your and convert to you, if you don’t set expectations, or if you plan to just let her dangle. Cut her loose and let her invest in someone else. The world is already harsh and full of bitterness…. no need to make it harsher and more bitter. It’s bad for the man’s subconscious. Keeping your subconscious aligned with your accessible consciousness is a part of frame, a part of being congruent that, again, no one talks about. Low status guys, f**ked up guys, are incongruent, and their low value and incongruence messes with their inner game. Higher-status, higher-class guys maintain congruence and have a keen sense of loose equality in terms of value given and value taken. This is getting a bit on the “hippie” side of things, about consciousness development, but I think that’s where the the higher levels of game live. Levels a lot of guys never hit, cause they can’t get past the lower levels.

Most women, by the way, never access higher levels of consciousness. If they do, they are already post-wall, and it is too late for them to access those levels via sexuality. Most younger women rely on men to get them there, and most men disappoint. That’s part of the reason we see the discord we see.

Seek for the higher levels. Discourage investment where it’s not warranted. If you see signs of her emotional investment, decide consciously if you want to respond in kind or keep her at a distance. The beginning parts of the game are important but so is the middle and end, where few guys live and where almost no guys writing online discuss.

The more time you spend around women, the more you realize most of them are basically irresponsible and want someone else to make decisions for them. This is why we have the crazy Title IX man-hunting tribunal in the United States and why so many women distance themselves from their sexual choices. This is also why so few women make it to the top of corporate and other hierarchies, because an individual has to be intensely responsible for his choices if he’s going to be a leader, not just a follower—something that most women can’t do. Men who have a lot of experience with women also learn that most women like to follow and so men are reluctant to put women in leadership roles, for good reason. Almost no feminists will admit this, leading to the absurd statements about women in companies that shrieking harpies propagate in the media.

I actually have no problem with women running companies or whatever, but I don’t think you’ll ever see as many women in leadership roles because it’s contrary to baseline female psychology. If a woman wants to be responsible for a large company and has the personality and intellect to do so, then that’s dandy. It’s just unlikely. Most women want men to take responsibility for them… and when she lets a guy into her soul, and then he chucks her aside, she’s wounded. Try not to let her do that. A guy who starts off low status might want to be mean, as revenge… but he’s really taking revenge on himself, for putting up with behavior he shouldn’t have. No reason to do that. The world is hard enough.

My friend Anna, who seems pretty monogamous

The world is a huge place, and any one of us sees a small small part of it. Seduction and Red Pill are a tiny part of a big world, and the guys in it are disproportionately ones with problems. I am thinking about it because I have a kind-of friend (see Female “friends:” the comprehensive statement), Anna, who is in her late 20s, maybe just turned 30, who is engaged… I’d rate her about a 6. A 6 with good habits, though… looking for a woman with good habits is under rated for long term relationships, something I have been mentioning on Twitter. Anna knows about some of the things I do and am into… and she’s not into any of them. She’s been dating a guy for a while who is probably a male 5 – 6 in the looks department, bit better in the economics / earning department. In Red Pill lore, that would mean she’s gagging to upgrade and stealing off to f**k random chads every weekend. It could be true… but I don’t think so… most girls can’t maintain a good-girl facade forever… most people will slip up. Online, there are many stories about guys being caught totally flatfooted and unawares by chicks who cheat, run up debts, etc., but in reality I think that’s rare… being caught utterly ignorant and without suspicion… most of these guys who claim to have been blindsided are not paying attention. With Anna, I think she’s going to marry the guy, if he’ll go for it. He might.

These are the stories no one shares online… cause they’re basic, quiet stories, about average people going about their lives. Anna’s guy will probably never post about how WOMEN LIE because she’s not lying. In the Red Pill world, cheating, bad behavior, divorces, etc. get read… we should tell those stories because they are real and important… they are also viral because they’re outrageous. We don’t hear stories about monogamy, fidelity, sticking together through the bad times, etc., probably because guys in pretty good relationships never get interested in red pill and seduction.

I have also wondered if, the hotter the girl, the better the offers of cheating, etc., she typically gets, and the more likely she is to take advantage of all those offers.

The chicks dating online, the chicks who respond to cold approach… they are not necessarily representative of all chicks. The chicks who want monogamy and meet guys through school, work, church, or friends of friends, then stay with the guy, or break up with him in a reasonable way because they’re not compatible, we don’t hear about. Stories about how, “My girlfriend realized that we weren’t compatible, so we had a respectful discussion leading to a breakup,” do not get everyone angry and righteous. These stories are invisible to the online world of anger. For reasonable girls who are trying to be kind while getting their own needs met, their ex boyfriends probably aren’t telling stories about how evil they are and how all women are bad, cause not all women are evil or bad. Most are people. If I posted this to certain forums online I would probably be ripped apart for being a dupe, and then told how Anna is spreading her legs for randoms on the sly.

Could be, I don’t know, maybe Anna is getting gang banged by a gaggle of black guys every other weekend. Could be that she sociopathicly presents one way and acts another. Maybe in ten years she’ll divorce the guy out of boredom. Unlike most modern chicks, she’s not into social media… she thinks it’s kind of stupid… she’s had two serious long term boyfriends who I know of and not a lot of hookups, I don’t think. I know her from some mutual hangout spots, and I say that I’m probably not real friends with her because we are too different… we have some common interests, yes, and now some common friends, but it’s pretty rare for guys to be true friends with women, and our lack of real common interests keeps us apart, although we’re friendly and have spent a surprisingly long time talking. We feel a bit like work colleagues who learn from each other but aren’t emotionally close. Most chicks who know things about my life and know things about my ways will open up about their slut adventures, etc., if they have any, and Anna has not done that. Guys who present as sex positive will often get girls to reciprocate, and Anna does not. She is like me in that she wants to let other people live how they want to live, but she is not very interested in the things I have done.

The chicks willing to make sex videos and be with guys like me are not representative of all chicks. Etc.

For a guy, it’s not possible to know for sure whether a given chick is like Anna or like all the chicks divorcing their husbands, cheating on their boyfriends, enjoying the flirtatious attention of other men, etc. etc. But if you watch a given chick’s behavior, you’ll get a sense of who she is over time, and she will do the same with you. A lot of guys see chicks whose behavior is not consistent with what they say, and they ignore the behavior when they shouldn’t. But some chicks are consistent with what they say… they say they want families and monogamy, they go out and find a guy who will give it to them. Both Anna and her boyfriend seem to have a pretty strong sense of their sexual market value (SMV), something that makes them kind of rare in the world of online anger. A lot of people are trying to reach above their SMV value, then complaining that it doesn’t work well… these are also the people who generate outrage stories (I have known plenty of these people, too). The guys complaining about how mean women are… are they going for women who are 5s, low 6s? If they chase the same girls all guys want, the hot young ones, well then how much do they know about ALL women?

Plus… look at it from her guy’s point of view… he is dating a woman who seems to be pretty monogamous and about his SMV level. If he were chasing flakey 8s, he’d be posting online about why do these chicks play games, why is she cheating on me, why does she run hot-cold, etc. Instead, he’s not trying to chase the hottest girls… and that means he’s not posting angrily about how mean chicks are, etc., because he’s got someone he seems to like/love and he isn’t in the market for angry-man ranting.

Don’t have a strong point in this bit apart from the idea that outrage sells and spreads, while whatever is the opposite of outrage doesn’t. Guys who are in satisfying relationships with women aren’t spending a lot of time in the Red Pill. Even among Red Pill guys, the most outrageous female behavior is the most interesting. I have spent a lot of time in the past ten years in short relationships 6 – 20 month relationships, and some of those have been very satisfying and have generated pretty few outrageous stories, even with non-monogamy mixed in. If we go to a sex club once a month… and the girl is fundamentally in my frame and following my lead… and I am making sure to stay at her pace and maintain her comfort level… there is not necessarily a lot of drama involved, or real good stories. It’s during the periods with lots of tumult, with badly behaved chicks, with chicks who are out of sync with me, etc., that the good stories happen. There are people whose actions, desires, and words all match up… we’re not hearing about them online. They’ve invisible to the anger machines.

Many people’s lives are punctuated by periods of tumult but also have long periods of relative peace. No one posts online, “I’ve been seeing this chick for 14 months and it’s going pretty well.” No one posts, “We realized that we weren’t right for each other anymore and had a respectful breakup.” Stories about how this one chick did a branch swing by f**king her coworker and finding their sexting… those stories are powerful. They are real too, I’m not denying them. I’m not denying that chicks are capable of outrageous and vile behavior.

I still think it’s a mistake for guys to get married… it’s a mistake for Anna’s man to marry her because I think he makes more $$$$ than her (a LOT more). Marriage is an expensive, risky move. But… she is also the kind of person who is probably NOT going to have a family with a guy she’s not married to, so that element is present. She behaves less hypergamously than most women seem to, and she seems to have chosen a guy with a set of features, good and bad, that fit with herself.

All chicks have the potential to branch swing, behave hypergamously, etc., and it’s good to know this cause it will happen to you if you date enough chicks… but not all do it. The ones who do, make for better stories and bitterer guys than the ones who don’t. We all build echo chambers for ourselves, we all struggle, etc. I think there is too much anger online. I get why the anger is there. If some woman blows up a man’s life in an unexpected way, he’s going to be angry and extrapolate. If some guy doesn’t have the SMV to get the women he wants, he’s going to get angry instead of getting better, cause anger is easier. A lot of guys have been told lies about what women want, and when they see past the lie they’re going to get angry, yes. I get it, it makes sense. But anger blinds… don’t be so blind that you mistake your world for the world.

It’s good to pay attention to the possibility of a high duplicity chick, of borderline personality disorder (BPD) chicks, etc. But… they are probably not as common in normal life as they are in the stories online. Don’t be blind. Do some spot checks here and there. Confront the things that don’t seem right. But don’t be paranoid either. If you are paranoid and convinced all chicks are just waiting to cheat, upgrade, etc., you will not have a very happy, or the ability to bond with the better chicks (if you want to do that… some guys want to be players… that’s cool… the game is about helping guys get the tools to get what we want, not about telling guys how to live every aspect of our lives).

I have been some dark places… I get the anger… I do… but I want to acknowledge the dark without having it consume me.

How she behaves towards other people is one day how she’ll behave towards you

How she behaves towards other people is one day how she’ll behave towards you.

Is she mean to other people?

One day she’s going to be mean to you, probably in the same way she’s mean to others.

Does she like to steal? Does she rationalize stealing?

I’ve run into girls who like taking alcohol from parties, or silverware from restaurants, that kind of thing… they seem proud of it. I haven’t seen the deeper levels of this behavior because the stealing is enough for me to distance myself from them.

Does she somehow always have drama with her friends, bosses, family?

One day she’s going to have drama with you, and by the way the police and courts are going to believe her, not you. Logically you can argue that this is not fair, but it’s true, and you need to protect yourself, not argue about notions of fairness.

Does she spend money poorly or earn money poorly?

One day she’s going to come to you for the money.

Does she tell you stories about kicking out some guy right after sex, for no good reason? Does she tell you stories about being mean to guys who are flirting with her? Those are things that are good to know, because you’re going to be her mean story one day and you should prepare appropriately. If she is proud of being mean to other people, one day she’s going to be proud of being mean to you.

Everyone has moments of untoward behavior, including me. If you somehow made a montage of my worst moments I would look bad. Things are grey, not black and white. But when you are building a model of a woman, or of anyone, take into account the red flags. I have been a low-down dirty dog. I’ve also been very effective and enabled experiences that would otherwise not have happened.

Other people are going to judge you the same way. I have lost people because of my interpersonal proclivities. That’s fine, it’s a cost of being alive and living a full life in my view. I do the things I do and pay the price for them, like we all do. But you should decide who you are and what kinds of things you’ll accept in people and what kinds of things you won’t. If you don’t, you’ll get what you get, and then you’ll bear the costs.

Why nurses or teachers are positive signs for longer-term relationships

Hard-core players who want to f**k around can ignore this one, but I mentioned to a player that teachers and nurses are good female occupations for long-term partners. Why?

smart men looking for a long-term partner should look at a woman’s job situation… a woman out of school who has no work or work history whatever is probably showing that there is something wrong with her… but a woman in a corporate job is not that appealing to most similarly situated men. When I am evaluating women for long term situations, two jobs in particular stand out, teacher and nurse. They are both jobs that are easy to leave at the job (don’t demand 50+ hour weeks) and they are both jobs that make it easy to leave for a year or two to have a family.

There are a lot of women who bring nothing to relationships apart from their p***ies… and then they are surprised… where are the GOOD men?

Teachers and nurses make fine money and both jobs can easily be left at work, unlike many modern corporate jobs. Both of them have a caring / empathy component that is good for men. Both jobs are easy to leave for a couple years to do child-bearing and early rearing. Both jobs convey that a woman is smart enough to get into a line of work that’s super compatible with having a family. Obviously, there are many teachers and nurses who would make terrible long-term partners, so you don’t need to tell me that in the comments. I know that and so do you.

It’s also true that some corporate women or flakey artistic bohemians who would make good long-term partners. Judge an individual in her totality, not just her profession. But if I hear “teacher” or “nurse,” that’s a grain of sand on the “long-term partner” side of the scale, and if I hear “boring corporate harridan” that’s a grain on the other side. If a nurse starts telling me about how she cuts herself, how she hates men because of her non-existent relationship with her father, and about how she is a women’s “rights” (special privilege) advocate… then she’s out and it’s on to the next one. A boring corporate harridan who talks about how she has chosen a set of skills and abilities that make it easy for her to have a family… about how she prioritizes family over work… about how she is close with her parents… that’s the opposite…. she’s a good choice… a sign of something is not the thing itself.

Age discrepancy is also an important question for longer-term relationships. I’m very unlikely to get into a serious relationship with a woman younger than 25 or who is still in school. That way lies madness. Yes, younger-hotter-tighter is cool, but that’s also setting yourself up for dissolution and, worse, divorce. The number of exceptions here is super small. If the age gap gets too large, a man is probably setting himself up for failure. If I met the right 23 year old who wanted to be a co-parent… maybe… but we’re also getting to very unusual fringe corner cases.

Yes, it is possible to consciously seek and seed a co-parenting relationship with a much younger women… I know another player who seems to be doing something like this… but it’s so rare that I mention it to be complete without expecting it to be relevant to most guys. If you want such an arrangement and find such a relationship, congratulations, but I don’t think many of them are out there.

Unlike some of the guys excreting their bile online, I’m also fine with the woman making more money than the man, if many other factors are in her favor. Many guys are insecure or threatened by this notion, but I’m not. If she makes $$$$, that’s nice, but the number of attractive women who make a lot of money and also have other good characteristics for long-term partners… we’re again talking about a super small group. I have run into some, most of them being physicians. It’s like hot female engineers… I have run into one or two of them, too… they’re super rare as well. Generic advice needs to aim for the median cases, not the cases three and four standard deviations out there. There are many millions of attractive teachers and nurses out there, some of them young and cute, and the jobs are easy enough to train for and get that they don’t exclude the overwhelming majority of hot chicks, as engineering, computer science, starting your own company, and law tend to do.

“The stripper with the sugar daddy”

The stripper with the sugar daddy” is my version of the title… let’s be real here, she’s no computer scientist… she does have a typical alpha/beta boyfriend dynamic going on, though… “I’m leery of his avoidant attachment style but, like my weekend shifts at the club, the promise of pleasure lures me back again and again,” the usual, honey…

I’m also beginning to realize I’m torn between A and B. B is reliable, empathetic, open, everything I am not used to in men — but deep down I know I am not as into him as he is into me. I find myself drawn to the 10,000-piece puzzle that is A. Even though he is evasive and maddeningly frustrating, I realize that I am in love with him.

It’s like reading red pill fan fic… the boring guy is too boring for her, the exciting guy is exciting because he’s unreliably available. With A, there’s a little “accident,”

We go back to his place and fuck passionately for hours, in every position. I love making you come, he whispers, kissing the back of my neck. When he’s about to finish he asks, can I come in you, but I hear, can I come on you, and tell him of course. I am shocked when I feel myself getting filled with something. It’s been a long time since I let someone do that, for me it’s as intimate as it is risky.

B, however,

sends me a link to a playlist he’s made. I listen to it before work and realize it’s a love letter. I am flooded with conflicting emotions. He knows I dance and thinks its “fucking badass,” which is a rarity; he’s a feminist, a real one. We are compatible on so many levels but there is something missing for me.

She likes him but is an avoidant type herself… so B’s statements of attraction to her turn her off… while A’s distance turns her on. Different types women of women will be turned on by different things. This is not a chick who likes comfort or needs much of it. This is a chick who likes wild uncertainty. The more sexually open and fluid she is, the more likely she is to be turned on by game playing, hot-cold, push-pull, etc. Know your audience.

Finishing inside is a universal path to intimacy and connection, however.

 

 

Halloween party and being part of the larger group

Last-minute Halloween party that wasn’t exactly for sex but had many of the characters from the scene/circuit at it. Went at the last minute when some family things fell through, Halloween not being a very family holiday. It was the sort of party that ten years ago would have thrilled me… now I’m fine doing it (this is not a whine), but I feel more take it or leave it.

Took a bit of love substance with some real friends, and the substance kept me awake later than was desirable, but it also had some of its intended effects. I see why these things are being tested in clinical settings, because I think they can have powerful reset properties. But my state was pretty low: lots of sex overall this week, including the day of the party, and whenever that happens… I’m just a lot less social. Less focused on meeting people and seducing women. Like a lot of guys, I have a “hunting” mode that makes me bolder, funnier, deeper, bouncier. More persistent though BS. And that mode was set to “off” from sufficient f**king. Guys in the game know that it all goes better when the mood is right… this isn’t an excuse for failing to do the work when the work needs to be done and the mood isn’t there, but it is a statement about how the game happens, which is another way of saying how people meet and get together from there. The best game doesn’t look like game, etc.

Did meet some chicks and catch up with some old friends, some of them friends of convenience and situation. When younger, I felt a burning desire to f**k pretty much every acceptable girl. Don’t get me wrong, I still wouldn’t mind that… but priorities have shifted, or are shifting. And I understand why guys around my age coming off of years, or worse decades, of unhappy monogamy, sexless “marriages,” etc. would want to f**k pretty much every acceptable girl, to feel fully alive. But… I also understand why years of short-term liaisons can begin to wear on the psyche… it can become a bit monotonous in its own way… the world changes, people are born, people pass, and I’m still asking “Tell me about a fantasy you’ve never shared before” and “I’m not sure you’re the kind of girl who hears the call to adventure. You might be a little boring, right?” I do less cube (have not properly memorized it) and that sort of stuff but have my own common tells/patterns.

There is a gap between “outcome independence” (a concept discussed by many players) and “not giving a shit,” and I feel like I have gone from striving for the first to stumbling into the second… and that shows in my (sporadic, rare) approaches. It’s good to keep up the skills… today, it’s the nature of relationships that a guy never knows when he’ll be on the market again. Women are capricious. The ocean’s tide can be predicted, as can the motion of the planets, but not the mind of a woman. If a guy lets go, he can get dragged into the relationship underclass real fast… just look at your friends with terrible diet and exercise habits… they get what they give. If their primary partner leaves, they’re f**ked, and not in the good way. Being alive today means always being alive to what will happen if she walks tomorrow. It means… it’s not a bad idea to have a couple loose affiliations with women you might text if your main thing goes away.

At the party, I ran into a girl I was f**king for a while a few years ago. She seemed super young then and still seems young, although she’s got to be reaching into the second half of her 20s. Totally empty headed, but in a slightly unusual way. She is too… pliant? Like, she will basically wander into bed with anyone who asks, even when she shouldn’t. I tried to get her to understand value and reciprocity, without her really getting it. She would basically f**k whoever asked… which led to problems at work and among friends… she was the kind of girl who could just be escalated pretty casually into bed (or the bathroom at a bar). A girl who is not good at doing any value protection can be fine in the moment but moving past the most casual of casual f**king often doesn’t work.

She has a pretty face and nice demeanor, but her body is basically skinny fat. She looks like she could be a tight high 8 (though not much in the boob department), then seems more like a low 7 nude. High 6, maybe. For a guy who loves a pretty face over a hot body, she might be a bit higher… I’m the opposite. No interesting story about her, cause I met her at one of the first events she attended, so my job was to look good, chitchat, then escalate, then follow up. Being in this world can blunt a player’s overall game development, because, if the guy can bring in enough new girls, etc., it becomes playing on easy mode. No one gets to the later levels of a thing without trying to reach the edge of his abilities, and if you can get solid 7s on easy mode, how badly do you want to keep chasing? If you become a game obsessive you might still go… to stroke the ego, to reach the highest echelons, etc…. for myself, if I’m sated, my focus tends to move to other things. And at the clubs, a lot of filtering has been done… same with the private events… a girl enters this ecosystem seeking something… something that I have been happy to provide.

This girl was an easy come, easy go girl… we had a thing for a couple months, but she never really “got” me, while I got her quite well. There is no way to put this nicely, but there was a serious IQ and personality mismatch between us. I have dated women smarter than me… which is a fantastic experience, because I can learn a lot from them, and they offer much greater intellectual stimulation and it’s possible to talk to them about work problems, ideas, etc., and get useful feedback, which most girls can’t offer. This one, though… was always more than a couple steps behind me… something I’m okay with, but that kind of mismatch can grate over time… she seemed not to understand that I need to work, to prioritize my job and other issues, and I don’t really know where her income came from. She didn’t seem to be selling sex, and I paid close attention to that, cause pretty girls with no visible means of real support… they have a means of support between their legs… you can usually tell if you’re paying attention. Her family didn’t seem especially wealthy. She did live with too many other people, so maybe her costs were just low, and she lived to party. I haven’t thought about her since I last saw her at a party. Some girls stick in the mind, some slip right out. The circuit can be game on easy mode.

There were fun aspects of the evening, and the love drug has the unfortunate property of making 6s more attractive. If I had been alone… I don’t know… I think it’s good that I wasn’t. So it was fun, but a lot of the things I considered fun now feel kind of melancholy, and the things I’d considered boring, or part of the interstate on the way to fun, I’m more okay with. I’m less interested in bamboozling and more interested in deep talk, often unmediated by altering substances. Unlike some guys, I’ve never had a problem with them. Some people, without intoxicating substances or the intoxicating lure of sex… there is not much else there, when you try to see what their mind is made of. For a lot of women, it’s hard to get to internal substance without the connection of sex first, or without substances to lower inhibition. Then it’s possible to see what’s there, past the layers of social defenses… arguably the game is about strategies to intelligently negate those defenses and allow people to really see what’s inside. I’ve been just fine with bamboozling, with the game, with chasing the f**king, for a long time. Now I am… less fine.

But I am glad that I’m making charts of this world, which has been almost entirely invisible to players, from what I have seen (if I am wrong please point out the predecessors). It seems that I have learned things and realized things that hitherto no one who thinks about the game has realized, or has spoken about. There is a pleasure in making the unknown visible to others. Game is the realization that there is a process and set of practices that can be followed in order to improve success with women. It isn’t completely random; it isn’t a matter of “women are weirdos;” it is a matter of recognizing systematic preferences and then acting on those preferences. Taking what had seemed mysterious and making it a system, like early entrepreneurs realized that a lot of formerly artisanal products could be made cheaply in factories powered by coal. The artisans were angry at seeing their market evaporate but the market spoke. Women hate the idea of the seduction process being illuminated, yet women love hot cool seductive guys and complain about the opposite (fat lame nervous guys). I’m extending another probe down a previously missed, unmapped branch of the game.

None of this is an argument about how other guys should live or game. It’s a description of what’s in my mind lately. When game or sex club experiences are in my mind and life, I report those. Otherwise… more like this. You start with game… you end up with psychology and the entire human world, if you scroll down far enough.

Not much of a field report to report.

What do I mean by “levels” of game/seduction discussion?

Guys have been asking what I mean when I talk about the “level” a given piece of advice operates at. There are at least two ladders of levels, maybe more. There’s the discussion/pattern ladder, and the game level.

There are GAME levels, and we’ll talk about them first… the first bunch of levels are where the man does almost all of the work, typically. Not always, but usually. Almost always if the woman is attractive. Initially, the man takes the brunt of the rejection. Sex is a fulcrum point. After it, more of the power and rejection ability shifts to the man. Men want to know, “Why won’t she put out? When will she put out?” Women want to know, “Why won’t he commit? Why doesn’t he call me after sex? Why doesn’t he acknowledge my love?” The seduction discussion among men is almost always about getting to sex and its immediate aftermath. The seduction discussion among women is almost always about getting a man who is high status and attractive to commit to a woman. Conversations about getting to sex seem weird a woman, because sex isn’t hard for her to get at all. Conversations about getting a high-status man to commit seem a little weird to many men, who haven’t been that high-status man and have spent most of their lives struggling with women.

Women are not stupid (a common refrain around here), and they know that they can have sex pretty quickly and easily if they want it. Many guys, however, don’t understand women and don’t understand that the female discussion is almost always past the “good sex” stage. There are articles about how to bait men into making the first move, especially guys who are +2 in SMV, but the bulk of the discussion happens at the later levels… “Mismatched sexual market value (SMV): Diagnosis and cures” has greater detail. So much advice, from and to both men and women, is garbage because it doesn’t talk about SMV level. Are you accurately assessing your own SMV? The SMV of the person you’re interested in? What that disparity or lack of disparity implies? So much of the discussion doesn’t address raising SMV, which is one big advantage of the red pill discussion, which begins with lifting, fashion, and diet. It’s about raising SMV.

Too much leadup. Some possible levels in the game:

  • Non-verbal indicator of interest (IOI).
  • Approach.
  • Initial rapport/seduction/whatever.
  • Exchange of numbers and contact information.
  • Date / seduction.
  • Kissing/stroking.
  • Bounceback, logistical challenges.
  • Clothes come off.
  • Sex. This is a fulcrum point, and it’s often where the female discussion starts: women want to know how, once a man has high enough status to lay them, to please the man and keep him interested and around.
  • Comfort/aftercare/bonding, especially if the woman has had deep sexual experiences and she doesn’t want to feel cheap/used/etc. Many men fail here. Once they’ve fucked they feel their “job” is done, which is a good way to needlessly hurt a woman. This is where a lot of women don’t want to go home and a lot of men want women to go home. Not universal, obviously.
  • Repeat sex/dates.
  • Where is this going?” conversation. Defining the relationship. That kind of thing. Red Pill guys often stop here, though many don’t even get here.
  • Committed relationships.
  • Cohabitation.
  • Marriage (I think this is a bad deal for men in most Western societies but it’s here for the sake of completeness).
  • Children/family/family structure.

Later on, there is group consciousness, pattern recognition, etc. There is understanding of a woman’s needs, psychologies, etc. And not all women are the same.

A woman who really wants to be monogamous and have a family (some of these do exist) will be different from the wanton sex positive sluts I have found myself specializing in. A lot of guys can’t get to this stage with any regularity. High-status, high-value guys are much more likely to get here, and low-status guys should work on fixing and raising their status.

These stages can occur over long periods or short periods of time. It’s possible to have a great sexual experience in a bar bathroom half an hour after meeting a chick. It’s also possible to know a chick for months or years before you plunder her.

Discussion/pattern level.

  • The “bottom level” among guys is things like “happy wife, happy life.” Or, “What do women want?” Or, “I don’t understand why she did this thing.” Or, “She says she wants a nice guy but only dates assholes.” Or, putting women on a pedestal. It’s a foggy mixture of confusion, hostility, admiration, and uncertainty. Game strives to demystify this process.
  • The (better) Reddit red pill discussion is a step above that, thankfully. It’s about the need for men to improve: diet, lifting, socializing, etc. It’s about the need to eliminate negative influences like video games, porn, TV, etc. It’s about learning to approach and accept that women like sex and have sexual criteria. Unfortunately it often stops around here.
  • The (worse) Reddit red pill discussion is about how women are evil demons and shrieking harpies and just trying to shake men down for money. This is the “anger phase” that men who discover cheating, men with f**ked up lives, men who have suffered through the divorce and “family” law court system, etc. are facing. Anger is an understandable response to trauma, but it is not the whole story.
  • The evolutionary biology discussion is a step above typical red pill discussion, or at a similar step. It’s about learning long-term patterns of attraction, behavior, and incentives for men and women. It’s about field reports and testing the theory in real life.
  • A step above that is applying patterns to individual cultures and situations.
  • A step above that is seeing women as members of a group but also evaluating them as individuals. We are both at once. Not all women are alike, though one can see patterns.

Other thoughts

There is also monogamy/non-monogamy, which for me usually slots between “repeat sex” and “Where is this going?” You can put sex clubs in that zone as well, although sometimes it will appear earlier, in dates/seduction. If a woman says she is not looking for anything serious, thinks monogamy is silly, likes experimenting with drugs, like music festivals, etc., then she’s likely a party girl and an especially good candidate for sexual exploration. A woman who is looking for something serious, wants to have a family, is close with her family, etc., is not as good a candidate. Experienced guys also

Consciousness of the other person’s world(s) might be another, and one I have been talking about lately, maybe because I find myself thinking about ways out of the game… I am not going to be able to get top girls forever and I don’t think I want the rest of my life to be about chasing tail.

Some men also don’t like spending time with women (Krauser seems to be like this) and that impedes relationship/emotion formation. I’m not saying that men automatically have to want relationships or emotional connection but I am noting it.

Other levels could be devised. I don’t claim this to be exhaustive. Some levels could be collapsed and others expanded. “Theory” and “practice” for example are common divisions and those are fine too. You’ll sometimes run into keyboard jockeys who are repeating red pill ideas they found somewhere else, rather than telling stories from their own lives… I push many guys towards writing blogs because I want to read their stories and a large body of writing is often a good way to do a first pass as to whether they’re likely full of shit or not.

Another point around levels is 1. underlying value, 2. game/conveying value and 3. environment. Many guys attracted to red pill and seduction have low value and must raise their value (thus that conversation is happening). Without higher underlying value they will most often image match. A male 5 will find a female 3 – 5. Many guys can raise their value a lot through the standard red pill advice… if it is executed properly. Just like a lot of women can raise their value when they quit sugar, be less bitchy, etc.

A guy with pretty low value who tries to learn “game” is likely to be disappointed… and he is going to have a lot of corrosive interactions with women. Then he is going to sign up at the usual sites and complain about how mean women are, not realizing that he’s seeing his own value reflected back at him. If he is a 5 chasing 7s he is going to have a rough time. If he is a 5 who can raise his value to a 7 the game is still challenging but he will be much more in the game and much less likely to take to Internet fora to write about how women are super duper bad.

Neither men nor women are bad, on average…. there are bad individuals in each group…. if you think half the planet is universally bad… that tells us about you, not about women, or men.

Male value is more malleable than female value and men are more inclined to date up AND down in age range. The “bitter older woman asking where the good men are” genre occurs almost exclusively after age 30 and most often after age 35, when top guys in that age range are dating women in their 20s, or have already married and have families. If you read stories by women about how bad men are, you are almost always reading stories about how a woman is disappointed that a man who is +2 SMV compared to her doesn’t want to be monogamous with her.

This genre about the “good men” deficit exists because women are surprised that their SMV goes down and the guys they could get easily at age 25 are now passing on them or choosing easy sex without commitment. Delusional women think that they primarily desire social status / wealth / confidence / education etc. in men, so they will cultivate those virtues in themselves, only to find men are not totally indifferent to those things, but are not primarily moved by them. I mean, I’d love to have women in my life who make more money than me and are also hot and also want to lavish me with sexual attention, etc., but that is not a typical outcome. Most people see their incomes rise throughout their early lives and incomes tend to peak around age 50, and in the 45 – 60 range. I don’t believe I’ve ever had sex with a woman that old and my interest in it is nonexistent, though maybe one day I will (I won’t be able to get anyone else!) and, for most women, by the time they generate the highest incomes, they are not in my target priority pool. I understand why guys who are uncertain of their value and who don’t bring much are worried about higher-earning women but to be honest if you’re working on value in other fields you should be all right. Half of doctors and a lot of other people in the medical professions are now women and not all of them are unattractive.

“More malleable” status still requires putting in the work, which most guys can’t or won’t. Many guys are also building from shitty foundations, so the foundations must be torn up and rebuilt, and that’s hard. In some ways I have been building value since I was a child… and reaping it throughout my adult life. Many guys also don’t see the higher levels of game, which can get a bit “hippie” like when it comes to raising consciousness, helping others build their value, etc.

For example, there is the endless Internet talk of the “nice” guy. Women like men who are kind… but not men who are weak supplicants hoping to f**k based on being “nice.” Women do like hot, high-status guys who are also kind, not based on trying to get sex, but based on genuine non-reciprocity and conscious decision-making… from a position of strength. I am not a nice guy… I have slept with women who now hate me… I have fired people who needed the job but were bad at it… I have broken rules… I have slept with married women… but I have also been kind, at times. I have given value without getting anything in return. I have helped people, including strangers. I have gone the extra distance. I have played with small children in front of attractive women (I have a fun and favorite story about this subject). By the time I was 20 or 21, however, I had figured out that being “nice” to women is a turn off and demonstration of lower value (DLV) that moves me away from f**king her, not towards f**king her, so I quit doing that.

Do women like nice guys? It depends. Definitely not niceguys, one word. But do they like a guy who they see as having high SMV, who is maybe a little mysterious in some ways, doing something nice for someone else, without any expectation of things in return? Probably. But they also like funny guys… most humor has an edge… if you don’t have an edge, you won’t be that funny. I have made mean comments… told mean jokes… I will again too.

I am getting off topic, but I am overall in favor of Rollo, Reddit’s Red Pill and seduction, etc., even when some guys aren’t, because they the average or low level guy above his most basic level. They clear away a lot of bullshit mystification and set guys up to reach the higher end of their abilities. So that is a net win in my view, even if they tend to cluster at the lower level of the ladders, and I want mostly to talk about the middle and upper end of the ladders… there is a lot of good material on developing underlying game and value in Krauser, in the book Mate, in other places, so I don’t have anything unique to add there. Plus, game can be thought of a little bit like chess in that for good players the first 5 – 10 moves are memorized calls and responses and gamed out… the interesting stuff happens midgame.

But… to go back to the open forums and some blogs… some of these places focus too much on resentment, and how women are bad (they’re not, in most cases, unless men let them be bad…. women are mostly self-interested), how feminism is bad (modern feminism is bad, I agree, and I’m glad someone wants to fight that fight, but I don’t), etc. These places rarely have any talk about how to get guys from the medium level into the higher levels. I doubt most guys who get to the higher levels spend time in these places. The places with voting, tend to have strong crab-bucket mentality, in which low-level guys downvote anything that they can’t perceive, because it’s too high level for them to understand or get. Many of them are in the “anger” phase when they realize they’ve been lied to for much of their lives and that they would have been better off lifting heavy weights in high school than “being themselves,” soulfully waiting for some flighty teen girl to notice them, but she didn’t, cause she was off f**king a wrestler.

Without knowing where a guy is… it’s hard to address his needs, beliefs, etc. I have spent time at the lower parts of this ladder, with lots of limiting beliefs, etc., that meant I didn’t perform where I should have performed. That said I have not had some of the physical, intellectual, and social problems that some guys describe. I have not married the wrong woman and then suffered divorce-rape. I have not had some of the extremely bitter and caustic experiences some guys have, which damages their psychologies. I have had plenty of negative experiences with women, but none of the truly awful ones. Some of that has been luck and I don’t deny luck’s role. I have had a lot of luck! Given my love of raw dogging… a lot, lot of luck. Some of it though has been a decent amount of work building and protecting value. I also had a pretty early sense of reciprocity and value exchange… so if a woman was trying to take value without offering any in return, I was (somewhat) good at protecting myself from that. Not perfectly because in my teens and early 20s I was scared of top girls lavished a lot of attraction-killing retention, followed them around like a puppy, listened to their stories about the guys they really liked or were fucking, etc. I needed eye-contact work and escalation work. But I was never as low as some guys are/were, and I had some things going for me.

The bottom-level discussion online has clarified things for me, taught me things, made vague ideas concrete. I don’t scorn that level of discussion. Many guys need it. The absence of top-level discussion is revealing… it tells us about the state of the masses. That’s why I began writing the blog… I realized that in other venues, almost no guys faced the “where is this going?” conversation, and wouldn’t understand the dilemmas faced by guys who get it regularly. I realized that the high-level discussion of sex clubs for players would have no role. Most often the response would be “cuck lol.” For a guy who struggles to get and maintain one woman… who is worried about losing her… who is unsure about his own status… this response makes a lot of sense. I get where he’s coming from. He’s playing a risky game with rewards he can’t perceive. For a guy who struggles with liking women and wanting to maintain them while also achieving sexual novelty… this strategy can make sense. Where a guy is will condition his response.

There’s also nothing wrong with being a beginner… almost all of us start there… but most guys never seem to get past the most beginner of beginning stage.

It’s perfectly normal of course for a guy to be high level and not like what I’m doing. But a guy who is at the lower levels… he can probably barely understand what I’m doing, or the problems I’m familiar with facing.

In real life I meet plenty of guys who never get past the lowest levels. They’ve had one or a very few girlfriends they got by luck and circumstance. They don’t understand women. Maybe they got married and now their marriage is stale and they don’t understand why. Their wife or girlfriend isn’t intersted in sex with them. They stay together “for the sake of the kids” without understanding what is wrong. They “got lucky” with her. They say, “She’s the boss” (words that have never passed my lips and never will). They tolerate bad behavior because they think they have to. Plenty of guys never get past these levels… and they can still get a woman of some kind, have kids eventually, pass on their genes, etc., but the sense of mystery and frustration never ends. It troubles them when they are watching sports or playing video games… then their team does the thing, or their video game makes a fake fitness demand on them, and the trouble vanishes, cause the team just did the thing or the video game requires a move.

The red pill and seduction communities exist to boost these guys. Plenty of them will accept the boost… but not that many will go all the way… I am interested in the ones who want to go all the way, who want to play the game but also understand the game, who want to seduce women but also improve the women who are open to being improved and worth of being improved, the ones who want to master the game so they can move past the game.

I don’t submit myself as one who has surpassed the game or one who is at the highest levels… I can see the higher levels, I believe. Chances are I can never reach most guys cause most guys are at the lower levels or if they aren’t they will never find this. I can keep trying to do a little better, though.