Recent additions to the sex club guide book

Two recent revisions to the free sex club guide book, both inspired by conversations with guys who read it.

Breeze wrote to me, “Before I read your book, I thought sex clubs to be drunken, bacchanalian parties filled with drugs. Your descriptions make them seem much more like friendly social gatherings where people have expert manners. That actually makes a lot more sense because there needs to be ‘hidden rules’ in place for this sort of ecosystem to be sustainable.” Exactly. Almost no large and public sex clubs allow drunks or people who use drugs to excess, or to the point that they violate other people’s space and desires. Sex clubs only work to the extent that women feel safe at them and to the extent that men know their dates won’t be molested. Take away the safety and the club will swiftly die, for good reason. People who violate the rules will quickly be ostracized (again, for good reason).

Think of rock climbing. Rock climbing is inherently dangerous. The people who do it successfully (and don’t die) are often very conservative about equipment, weather, and training. They make absolutely sure their safety gear is top notch and in good working order. If they see signs the weather is turning, they turn back, even if the summit is close. They train hard to consecutively reach more difficult mountains, glaciers, or rock faces, and no one smart starts with Everest, K2, or even Denali. Something similar can be said for sex parties: the people who do it successfully often plan their evenings and dates. They decide what their limits and rules are for a given night. If they want to change the rules for their next date or club, they can. They check in with their partners. If something seems off about new partners, they disengage. And the people who do sex clubs successfully look for others who share the same ethic. Drink and drugs that impair one’s ability to function properly and to respect others are not going to work with these needs. Manners and etiquette, however, help people structure interactions. Being too mannered is stultifying, but not being mannered enough is rude or confusing. People who are successful in a given situation learn to operate between those poles.

Another, not connected to the one above, occurred in a private chat and Magnum suggested it be stated explicitly.

Let me also pause to say this book throws a lot of data and ideas at newcomers. Pull back from the barrage of new ideas and remember not to overthink the experience, despite me dumping a bunch of data. the sex club and party are supposed to be fun and relaxed. If you get too in your head, too into trying to decipher every moment and motivation, the club won’t be as fun. Your girl wants to have a fun adventure with you. Think back to high school or whenever you first started dating. If you sweated every detail, every moment, every word said to the girl, you were likely too anxious to achieve flow, and the girl could sense your anxiety. Do enough planning and thinking to make the event happen without driving yourself into over-worry. The first time you try anything new, it’s not going to go perfectly. This book distills ten+ years of the game… I have noticed subtleties that won’t always be important. Harness the excitement and ride that. Don’t let fear be the mind killer. 

If you go enough, you’ll become part of the scene and community: sex clubs and sex parties will become a lot more fun when you make friends who also regulars and connect with people on a level beyond a purely sexual level. Some of my friends and acquaintances have found employees, employers, business partners, climbing buddies, gym buddies, book clubs, and all manner of other, non-sexual connections through non-monogamy. For most of us, meeting tons of strangers is stressful, and trust doesn’t occur immediately upon meeting. It takes time to build, for good reason, since a lot of hours of face time and listening are necessary to evaluate other people (I mention later in the book that players have discovered most women, most of the time, need 4 – 10 hours with a man before sex. Sex clubs can shorten that time, but a lot of swapping happens after two hours of socializing and one hour of people f**king the partner they’ve brought, getting us close to the four hours many women want prior to sex). As you develop bonds with other people, the clubs and parties will become social and sexual events, and they’ll be more enjoyable because of those bonds. Like any scene, getting into it will take some time, but ongoing, repeated interactions are more satisfying than one-offs. People who think the sex clubs are purely about sex may be surprised to find that they’re as much about socializing, if you’re doing them correctly. 

They’re both subtle ideas but I think they clarify a bit of the cultural practices you’ll find, along with popular misconceptions. Lots of people may have been turned on and titillated by that Eyes Wide Shut orgy scene, but it has very little to do with how most real orgies happen. A guy could probably try to re-create that Eyes Wide Shut scene… but he’d probably be paying the girls.

In the real world, young and hot women dictate the dating world (contrary to what shrieking feminist harpies claim), and the whole sex club scene is built around the needs and desires of women. Women need more context and comfort for sex, and sex clubs make those things happen by balancing danger/excitement with comfort/rules.

A lot of businesses are starting to shut down or scale back due to COVID-19, giving me too much time to tinker on the book, which won’t be of use to people during the outbreak, since sex clubs will be among the first venues to shutter.

Festivals, parties, etc. and the network’s power

Festivals, concerts, the parties that go with them… I read almost no guys writing about them online. So… let’s talk about what happens, within my limitations, because I don’t have a lot of experience with music festivals and concerts, since they don’t match my personality properly… but I know people who do these things and can infer their power. I think the guys who get laid the most, with the hottest chicks, develop a network or ecosystem of people… the people who go usually have friends or make friends, and I think a lot of them have access to drugs that make them more open to meeting people (including chicks) and to offer access, just by starting with basics like, “What have you seen tonight?” “Are you girls rolling or what?”

Also, exposure is one way to get chicks. If you see a chick at two or three different venues, a logical open is, “Did you see at [place]? I think so.” Even a little bit of familiarity can pry open a closed chick. I have seen guys at parties just go by and say “Hey, what’s up?” to almost everyone they see at a party… then next time they’re like, “Hey did I see you at [venue]?” They’re planting lots of seed. At festivals with thousands of people this works less well but even among festival people I think the same faces will show up again and again.

Most importantly, many girls are in a flirtatious and open frame of mind… outside of their “everyday” mode. Party drugs (ecstasy, molly) can make people open to doing things they might not do otherwise. Some chicks like coke. That seems like less a sex/love drug and more of a… I don’t know what to call it.

The best people seem to have good logistics and things like afterparties planned and ready to go. The guys who do really well here seem to have broad, shallow networks. They meet lots of people (men and women), collect lots of numbers, and then keep in contact with people and facilitate connections. Many guys will have lists of girls and ask “Are you going to yyy venue/party this weekend?” Sometimes the hookup happens there, sometimes on a date after, etc. Lots of girls fall away… but the power of the network is high. Because it’s about the network and a momentum strategy, most guys aren’t going to show up and get laid… they are going to need to learn the world and the world’s rules, and meet some of the people in it. The winners building winning systems.

Drugs… are dangerous. They can be addictive. It is fine to like them but awful to need them. The other problem with drugs, apart from addiction, is that they destroy a lot of time. Many people after molly/ecstasy need like 48 hours or longer to recover. Alcohol is like this too of course. But if you come to rely on these things or do them too much, they will compromise your other goals in terms of fitness, finance, career, etc. I have seen men and women turning 30, 35, whatever, and realizing that their life consists of a series of parties and drug experiences and sex experiences, but… there is not much to show for it.

Most lives need balance. If you are compromising your other goals… you will suffer for it… the quality of your life, family, career, and development will suffer for it. Drugs can be an aid to reaching other people but they can also be very destructive. It’s also easy to get into dangerous credit card debt and have your financial life fall apart.

One thing… I have been at the outskirts of these worlds sometimes… and I can see their power but also their selection bias. The chicks in them are selected for being sex-positive s**ts. So other girls… may become unavailable to you or just less interesting. But some of them… are also good.

Sometimes in real life I’m really attracted to chicks I wouldn’t find appealing online. And that’s true of chicks too. Real life has seduction/feedback/eye contact mechanisms lacking online. We’ve spent our whole evolutionary history evaluating each other in the real world, and like 20 years evaluating each other online… then we are surprised when problems emerge from online.

Guys writing pickup material were almost all social retards for most or all of their lives (a lot still are). They are introverts trying to work with their introversion. Their loner nature limits their social networks. So the things normal guys do for girlfriends and sex, don’t apply to most of the pickup guys. Because of their personalities, they’re blind or semi blind to some types of ecosystems.

These guys doing festivals etc. also have compelling pics, often with pretty girls, and use those to judiciously seed social media accounts. The average guy who spends his days playing video games, watching porn, etc., doesn’t have any of that visual social proof. He literally doesn’t spend enough time with women to understand them properly. His weaknesses are a kind of reverse Matthew Effect. As he gets weaker, he gets weaker, instead of stronger.

Also… if you meet real women… most of them are not like the resentniks online say they are. Yes, there are some bad ones. Yes, many of them will take free value if it’s offered to them (as many guys do). Most of them… are struggling. In ways different from the ways a lot of guys suffer, but not that different. Talk to them enough and you will see their struggle.

There are many good things about pickup seduction and red pill guys. There are also some blindspots, like with any movement/ideology. I want to talk about their positives but I also want to surface some of the blindspots. The world is huge and any person’s place in it tiny. We all mistake our realities for reality.

I’m not 100% sure how to get a guy totally outside the festival/concert/etc. scenes, into them. Just start going? Ask your friends (you have some of them, right?) to go? On this blog I often talk about how to get antisocial loser newbies going (example), but this is one area where I’m not sure how to do that.

One thing to ask is what value you’re bringing. Are you ripped? Do you set up photobooths? Do you have drug connections? Do you make connections among different people? Do you have an afterparty set up and ready to go? Guys should ask these questions and have good answers for them. Chicks bring value just by showing up and being hot. Guys… should try to answer this question. Just being there is okay but I think the better guys go past this.

In-person meetings are just more powerful and immediate than online meetings… online used to work… now everyone is online and it doesn’t. A common theme of my writing is that guys with good sex lives have good social lives. Usually that means minimizing the modern online bullshit of video games, TV, and social media. Top guys develop skills and abilities and social lives that are consistent with getting laid. This is why so much of the seduction conversation is hard… it’s almost never one single thing that gets guys laid… it’s a bunch of things. I have been trying to explain the things I do and I have realized that it’s not one thing, it’s a bundle of things.

Exceptional effort (that is effective) = exceptional results.

Like everything else in life.

Some recent experiences have me thinking about this (I hadn’t been able to capture this facet orf what I do until those experiences). And just observing the world around me. Almost no guy I know seems to have gotten the best sex life just via online. Maybe the ones who are super attractive and don’t need it that much.

Even within game… the best conversations are happening outside public spaces. I didn’t understand that when I started writing this blog, the best insights wouldn’t be posted publicly, they’d come from chats, emails, etc. If you are only living on the public side of the game world, you’re missing out.

Write your player blog. It’s an advertisement, but not in the way you think.

The best and most actionable advice and guidance for guys looking to build their game and become players is private… it’s happening in group chats, emails, etc. It’s not happening in public, where some advice is good, some is bad, and a lot is too general. The public sphere has a lot of good and useful information in it, particularly for the newest guys who are learning the basics, but each guy has specific challenges, sticking points, etc., and those guys need targeted aid. In addition, each guy has different internal psychological challenges, and those internal challenges are very hard to self-diagnose… if they were easy, we’d not have the entire field of psychology. Almost all of us want to protect our own egos and so turn away from difficult truths… me included. To be the best, however, we need to get feedback on our challenges and to ultimately confront them. Improvement comes from doing what’s uncomfortable.

Write your player blog. It’s an advertisement, but not in the way you think. To get into the deeper levels, you need to show that you’re not an idiot (most guys are idiots) and that you’re willing to put in the effort necessary to make progress. Write your player blog and reach out to the guys who don’t seem to be idiots. That’s where the better ideas, coaching, encouragement, etc. happen. You likely won’t get into the substantive and specific conversations without some demonstration that you’re not an idiot first. The blog is that demonstration. It’s hard for a lunatic to write a sustained story of his actions and progress so far. I’ve read blogs by guys who appear to be nuts and I appreciate those blogs… because they warn me to avoid the guy.

The blog need not even be unique. You can just write about what you’re doing, what’s happening to you, what you notice with chicks, etc. Even a blog about blowouts is going to be more interesting than what most guys are doing (nothing, or repeating platitudes, or writing vaguely about why this one special girl isn’t into them, etc.). Most guys don’t get the feedback they need to improve.

This is a kind of “do as I say, not as I do” moment of advice. I have spent most of my time as a player struggling to learn things on my own instead of accelerating my learning by tapping into the advice/guidance of others. It has worked out okay for me, but I could have done better and probably should have. I also didn’t realize that the material that rises to the level of blogs, or twitter, is only a small amount of that which remains in private chats.

I’m going to be a bit arrogant and say that I am better at this than most guys, and I am still amazed at all the s**t other guys come up with and observe. If that’s true of me, it’s likely true of you as well. There are many guys much better at this than I am, too. Some of them are writing publicly… I include many of their blogs in the links panel… and I bet almost all of them will have more specific and detailed advice in private than they do in public. But they, like me, don’t want to waste time on wankers. Most of the guys I have been speaking to in private, I have also been reading in public for months or years.

Consider this story… in college when that happened, I was operating by instinct and didn’t really know what I was doing… I think that is one reason I encourage guys to write online… most guys have no idea what we’re doing… game gives us a framework. To take my work specifically, with sex clubs, almost no one is writing about this topic. Non-mono more generally is covered by a handful of people… like me, Blackdragon (when he is not pitching “Alpha male magic 3.0 yeah baby yeah conference”), now some from Yoylo and Magnum at times… and that’s it… it’s mostly invisible to most players. The guys who stumble into it, are doing it by accident (I have some examples of this but they have been sent to me in private… I don’t disclose private information). We need to turn game from lore into a proper program, a proper course of study.

THE GAME and MYSTERY METHOD turned seduction from lore into a proper program… and they are still valuable… I am seeking to do the same… I would not have been able to do this without starting the blog… now I hope that others will take up the ideas and extend/apply it. It can be done. The lows are low… but the highs are high.

Good blog writers show themselves to be engaging, learning, and practicing their trade… bad ones reveal themselves as followers and fools. Interacting with chicks a lot generates the best ideas/stories: you see something, you hear something, you report back on it… it’s like trying to be a reporter who goes out and talks to people on the scene versus one who never leaves the office. One person is going to generate a lot of good insights and the other person is not. Bogus players write platitudes about cultivating “inner game” or write about how “not to back down” or give repeated, fifth-hand advice about “body language.” Guys who have something valuable to say write about this one girl they were talking to and how that went, and why they think it worked or didn’t work. I became friends withRed Pill Dad because of his blog, whereas his Twitter feed was too scattered to judge him. I think he judges me on this blog, like he should.

Interacting with chicks generates the best material.

Blog for yourself… but also blog for other people… at first, you’ll get almost no traffic and no readers. But, over time, readers will emerge and find you organically through search. That is how we build awareness and a movement. Feminists have taken over the public discourse by doing this sort of thing, one whacked-out lunatic at a time. We don’t want to be like whacked-out feminist lunatics, but we do want to inject some reality into the world. I have heard from guys who stumbled onto Red Quest… then used the links in the side bar to see what others are saying/writing/thinking… and it’s changed their lives. This only really happens in blogs. Twitter is almost invisible to search. Reddit’s Red Pill is now “quarantined” and thus has been de-indexed by search engines. It’s up to all of us, as individuals, to carry the story forward.

Don’t ask for nudes. Don’t be pleased if you get them too soon.

Don’t ask for nudes. Don’t be pleased if you get them too soon. I’ve come to realize getting nudes is only a good sign if they arrive after I’ve f**ked her… then the nudes say, “There’s more of this coming your way and I want to entice you.” If she sends them beforehand I seem to be further away from f**king her (and I might never).

Why? I’m not 100% sure, but some chicks appear to substitute nudes for actual f**king. It’s worse if the guy asks…. or so girls tell me… asking for nudes seems to be a demonstration of lower value (DLV) and hot girls are bombarded with requests from low-value guys. I don’t have a strong theory about why this appears to be true, just observation. Some people now seem to prefer masturbatory stimulation to real live sex. Maybe I’m just old school but that’s not me. I’m also old-school enough to not have spent my adolescence and young adulthood watching hours of HD Internet porn every day. In my formative years, we had pics and some video, sure, but the bulk of sexual activity and stimulation had to occur live and in person.

Dexter speculates

My guess is if a woman she sends an explicit pic to you before f**king she thinks to herself

” shit…I sent this guy a nude so if we meet he’ll be expecting sex right off the bat ”

It takes away her plausible deniability.

That’s a fine theory… others may be constructed. Mr. V daygame said,

You forget that woman and men speak a different language. A guy wants pics of tits, a girl doesn’t want pics of dicks. That’s a clear example how men and woman are seduced differently

I only send them if the woman specifically asks for them (some do)… I don’t think a woman has ever asked for pics or videos before she’s had sex with me… after sex, she has a narrative and experiences to connect the visuals to. If she coyly asks I might say, “So you want me to send you nudes.” Again, I’m pretty sure this only ever happens after we’ve f**ked for a while. The story and experiences makes them valuable to her, in a way random guys aren’t. Without the story, they’re just another random guy’s body, and women can see male bodies, even very nice ones, any time they want.

Let me clarify… I am not against nudes at all and have shot thousands of them, almost all of them post sex, when the woman is very much in my frame and flooded with positive emotions and openness after being f**ked. A lot of women who are happy to pose right after being f**ked will later ask that they be deleted. A note for students of female psychology. Answers as to what this means can be posted in the comments.

A very nice camera is now as little as a couple hundred dollars… I remember the first reasonably priced DSLR, the Canon Rebel, that cost $999 or $1199 with lens, I believe. We live in a different world.

If she sends you nudes, try to get her on a date with good logistics as soon as possible. If you can’t get her on the date, she’s seeking attention and that’s it. I’m not in it for attention or for pictures… I’m in it for the physical pleasure and the psychological, spiritual, and physical connection… that’s where the good stuff is.

Guys who really want to get laid, focus on the things/behaviors/strategies that lead in that direction, and ignore other things. Asking for nudes is not a good step on the route to getting laid. I think a lot of guys reading and chatting online are not truly into getting laid.

How to frame and execute nude photo shoots with women

A player, “Mr. V.,” who knows about my nude photography art habit, asks how I do it… I’ve talked about the principles before, but now for some detail…

  • After sex, I tell her to pose, or to hold, then I grab the camera and start shooting… a real, standalone camera. Sometimes I’ll tell her the light looks good or she looks good right there, that kind of thing that makes her purr. Something to make her think that it’s not random jerk-off material but artistic. Girls have been going for the “You look special just now, spread your legs” line since primitive men first took charcoal to cave walls. It worked for Picasso, it worked for Lucian Freud, it worked well enough for that weird artistic guy with long hair in undergrad art classes, it will work fine for you if you’re high value, have good game, and the girl is in your frame. Sometimes I’ll say something about her being especially attractive. After sex, women are eager to hear they’re still sexy, desirable, and good, and that the guy doesn’t dislike them during post-nut clarity. Snuggling, cuddling, and bonding during this period is important. She needs male attention to come back down to the regular world. And… they are still in a sex-positive mood and receptive to the camera’s eye.
  • From there I just kind of assume the sale and turn on the camera while we’re fucking or beforehand. Or I’ll say, “We should make a sex tape,” then do it. I almost never ask explicitly… very much try to assume the sale. Most women will go along with this in the moment, particularly if they’re already turned on.
  • Because the woman is turned on already, that may be why a lot of chicks will ask the next day for me to delete the photos… she gets caught up in the moment while aroused. The next day, in a cold state, she worries about her reputation, shame, etc. What if it gets out? I am the kind of gentleman who will tell her that I deleted them.
  • The number who refuse pics altogether is small… but out there. It’s all in the game.
  • Sometimes I start out with only her backside (no face) and then move forward. Like with a lot of things, chicks might start out uncomfortable with things but then inch into full comfort. The more invested she is, the more likely she’ll want to serve as your muse and model.
  • Having a true standalone camera produces superior results and also feels different to the woman than a guy with a phone. She feels more like a desired model. Every guy has a phone. Be different.
  • Some chicks will show the results to their friends. This seems like a demonstration of higher value (DHV).
  • If she’s a hard no, let it go. A playful disposition will often help her overcome initial shyness.
  • It is good to learn basic photography.

If she’s a hard “no” accept that. There is “yes,” “maybe” “soft (negotiable) no” and “hard no.” Negotiation is the subject of many books so I won’t write a whole thing about it now. Recognizing the hard no and the soft no is a job of the player.

When a woman sends nudes before sex it’s a bad sign, in my experience. Still not 100% sure why but I have some theories in the other post. I personally haven’t gotten a lot of this but I’ve seen a little. I also don’t request nudes from women, almost ever. I think requesting phone nudes is a demonstration of lower value (DLV) and also most women are inept photographers with inept cameras, poor light, and poor composition.

How she behaves towards other people is one day how she’ll behave towards you

How she behaves towards other people is one day how she’ll behave towards you.

Is she mean to other people?

One day she’s going to be mean to you, probably in the same way she’s mean to others.

Does she like to steal? Does she rationalize stealing?

I’ve run into girls who like taking alcohol from parties, or silverware from restaurants, that kind of thing… they seem proud of it. I haven’t seen the deeper levels of this behavior because the stealing is enough for me to distance myself from them.

Does she somehow always have drama with her friends, bosses, family?

One day she’s going to have drama with you, and by the way the police and courts are going to believe her, not you. Logically you can argue that this is not fair, but it’s true, and you need to protect yourself, not argue about notions of fairness.

Does she spend money poorly or earn money poorly?

One day she’s going to come to you for the money.

Does she tell you stories about kicking out some guy right after sex, for no good reason? Does she tell you stories about being mean to guys who are flirting with her? Those are things that are good to know, because you’re going to be her mean story one day and you should prepare appropriately. If she is proud of being mean to other people, one day she’s going to be proud of being mean to you.

Everyone has moments of untoward behavior, including me. If you somehow made a montage of my worst moments I would look bad. Things are grey, not black and white. But when you are building a model of a woman, or of anyone, take into account the red flags. I have been a low-down dirty dog. I’ve also been very effective and enabled experiences that would otherwise not have happened.

Other people are going to judge you the same way. I have lost people because of my interpersonal proclivities. That’s fine, it’s a cost of being alive and living a full life in my view. I do the things I do and pay the price for them, like we all do. But you should decide who you are and what kinds of things you’ll accept in people and what kinds of things you won’t. If you don’t, you’ll get what you get, and then you’ll bear the costs.

Basics like asking the girl out and escalation

For most guys, 97% or more, it’s still about the basics… look at this woman’s story… I’m omitting some of it, but the whole thing is on Twitter.

at some point during the courtship dance, you DO need to let her know you are interested. Sexually. Because, believe it or not, she may not know.

This is a funny story from my own dating days.

In my mid-20s, I played ultimate frisbee. One day, a couple guys joined our game. One blond, the other dark haired. Blond guy was SUPER attractive and extremely good at ultimate frisbee. They both came to our after-game potluck. I can’t recall what happened, but I didnt really consider either of them dating options. However, I did get the dark haired one’s number.

And one night when I was bored, called him for a drink. NOT because I was into him. I really just wanted to leave the house. So I have a drink with the guy, and the whole time, he’s singing the praises of his blond friend. So much that I’m wondering if he’s trying to tell me he’s gay. I was super confused.

Then, some time later, he invited me for dinner with him…and blond friend. Like…okay?

But that was THE ENTIRETY of my contact with these guys. A year and a half later, I ran into Blond Guy. I told him I was engaged to my husband. Blond Guy said, “Why did you pick him over me?”

0.0
O.o
O.0

Like…this was a guy who IN NO WAY made it clear he liked me. He didnt ask me out. He didnt try to kiss me. He didnt even have his friend pass me a note like we were in middle school to tell me he liked me. HOW was I to know?!?!?!? And this was a HANDSOME guy. An athletic guy.

But even he couldn’t date properly.

This is basic escalation. Both guys in the story fail.

A lot of guys will succeed by improving their value, talking to chicks, asking chicks out, showing straightforward interest, and then trying to f**k them. The advanced game stuff you read… that’s the back 10 or 20%…. most guys don’t have the first 80 or 90% down… the stuff that’s like, “Have some balls.” “Make a move.” “Don’t be afraid of rejection.” “Rejection is better than regret.” “Hit the gym.”

In real life, I have heard many MANY women tell stories similar to this woman’s story. Most guys aren’t even taking the easy shots.

In real life, I was like those clueless guys until I was like 20 / 21.

How many women do you think those guys missed because they didn’t say, “Give me your phone number, and let’s get a drink.” Because they didn’t say, “Why don’t we go back to my place and listen to music / watch TV?” Back at his place, kiss her. Then the rest. A lot of guys will be helped just by looking the girl in the eye and escalating. So that she knows he’s interested. Sexually.

This chick was so potentially into them that SHE CALLED THEM. That doesn’t happen much.

Women have these kinds of stories (the linked woman is not a PC SJW lunatic, so that’s cool… not every woman on Twitter is a raving SJW lunatic). Guys they might have f**ked if the guy had made the move. I am interested in exploring the back half of the game that is very little discussed, while also knowing that this woman is right, most guys are guilty of, “IN NO WAY made it clear he liked me.” Most guys “couldn’t date properly.” That means super basic escalation. A lot of girls aren’t getting f**ked, and a lot of guys aren’t f**king, because the guy doesn’t do super simple escalation. I have written this before, but a decent number of my lays came about from girls who were kind of passive or awkward… but who went along… with me… back to my place until we were f**king. A lot of guys in normal life who are considered “players” just have good eye contact, decent bodies, and they escalate until the girl says no…. and sometimes she never says no.

What do I mean by “levels” of game/seduction discussion?

Guys have been asking what I mean when I talk about the “level” a given piece of advice operates at. There are at least two ladders of levels, maybe more. There’s the discussion/pattern ladder, and the game level.

There are GAME levels, and we’ll talk about them first… the first bunch of levels are where the man does almost all of the work, typically. Not always, but usually. Almost always if the woman is attractive. Initially, the man takes the brunt of the rejection. Sex is a fulcrum point. After it, more of the power and rejection ability shifts to the man. Men want to know, “Why won’t she put out? When will she put out?” Women want to know, “Why won’t he commit? Why doesn’t he call me after sex? Why doesn’t he acknowledge my love?” The seduction discussion among men is almost always about getting to sex and its immediate aftermath. The seduction discussion among women is almost always about getting a man who is high status and attractive to commit to a woman. Conversations about getting to sex seem weird a woman, because, for her, sex isn’t hard to get. Some man asks her out and tries to f**k her, and if she says yes, it happens. She can ask almost any straight male she knows to come over, and he will, and he’ll f**k her. On the other side, conversations about getting a high-status man to commit seem a little weird to many men, who haven’t been that high-status man and have spent most of their lives struggling with women. Most men struggle to get a single woman in their lives, let alone a high-status woman who wants to commit.

Women are not stupid (a common refrain around here), and they know that they can have sex quickly and easily if they want it. Many guys, however, don’t understand women and don’t understand that the female discussion is almost always past the “good sex” stage. There are articles about how to bait men into making the first move, especially guys who are +2 in SMV, but the bulk of the discussion happens at the later levels… “Mismatched sexual market value (SMV): Diagnosis and cures” has greater detail. So much advice, from and to both men and women, is garbage because it doesn’t talk about SMV level. Are you accurately assessing your own SMV? The SMV of the person you’re interested in? What that disparity or lack of disparity implies? So much of the discussion doesn’t address raising SMV, which is one big advantage of the red pill discussion, which begins with lifting, fashion, and diet. It’s about raising SMV.

Too much leadup. Some possible levels in the game:

  • Non-verbal indicator of interest (IOI).
  • Approach.
  • Initial rapport/seduction/whatever.
  • Exchange of numbers and contact information.
  • Date / seduction.
  • Kissing/stroking.
  • Bounceback, logistical challenges.
  • Clothes come off.
  • Sex. This is a fulcrum point, and it’s often where the female discussion starts: women want to know how, once a man has high enough status to lay them, to please the man and keep him interested and around. A lot of the male discussion ENDS here.
  • Comfort/aftercare/bonding, especially if the woman has had deep sexual experiences and she doesn’t want to feel cheap/used/etc. Many men fail here. Once they’ve fucked they feel their “job” is done, which is a good way to needlessly hurt a woman. This is where a lot of women don’t want to go home and a lot of men want women to go home. Not universal, obviously.
  • Repeat sex/dates.
  • Where is this going?” conversation. Defining the relationship. That kind of thing. Red Pill guys often stop here, though many don’t even get here.
  • Committed relationships.
  • Cohabitation.
  • Marriage (I think this is a bad deal for men in most Western societies but it’s here for the sake of completeness).
  • Children/family/family structure.

Later on, there is group consciousness, pattern recognition, etc. There is understanding of a woman’s needs, psychologies, etc. And not all women are the same.

A woman who really wants to be monogamous and have a family (these do exist, contrary to what you may read in some parts of the Internet) will be different from the wanton sex positive sluts I have found myself specializing in. A lot of guys can’t get to this stage with any regularity. High-status, high-value guys are much more likely to get here, and low-status guys should work on fixing and raising their status.

These stages can occur over long periods or short periods of time. It’s possible to have a great sexual experience in a bar bathroom half an hour after meeting a chick. It’s also possible to know a chick for months or years before you plunder her.

Discussion/pattern level.

  • The “bottom level” among guys is things like “happy wife, happy life.” Or, “What do women want?” Or, “I don’t understand why she did this thing.” Or, “She says she wants a nice guy but only dates assholes.” Or, putting women on a pedestal. It’s a foggy mixture of confusion, hostility, admiration, and uncertainty. Game strives to demystify this process.
  • The (better) Reddit red pill discussion is a step above that, thankfully. It’s about the need for men to improve: diet, lifting, socializing, etc. It’s about the need to eliminate negative influences like video games, porn, TV, etc. It’s about learning to approach and accept that women like sex and have sexual criteria. Unfortunately it often stops around here.
  • The (worse) Reddit red pill discussion is about how women are evil demons and shrieking harpies and just trying to shake men down for money. This is the “anger phase” that men who discover cheating, men with f**ked up lives, men who have suffered through the divorce and “family” law court system, etc. are facing. Anger is an understandable response to trauma, but it is not the whole story.
  • The evolutionary biology discussion is a step above typical red pill discussion, or at a similar step. It’s about learning long-term patterns of attraction, behavior, and incentives for men and women. It’s about field reports and testing the theory in real life.
  • A step above that is applying patterns to individual cultures and situations.
  • A step above that is seeing women as members of a group but also evaluating them as individuals. We are both at once. Not all women are alike, though one can see patterns.
  • A step to the side of this relates to things like having FMF threesomes, and that sort of thing. Things that are way off most guys’s radar, because most guys don’t get past the beginner issues.

Other thoughts

There is also monogamy/non-monogamy, which for me usually slots between “repeat sex” and “Where is this going?” You can put sex clubs in that zone as well, although sometimes it will appear earlier, in dates/seduction. If a woman says she is not looking for anything serious, thinks monogamy is silly, likes experimenting with drugs, like music festivals, etc., then she’s likely a party girl and an especially good candidate for sexual exploration. A woman who is looking for something serious, wants to have a family, is close with her family, etc., is not as good a candidate. Experienced guys also

Consciousness of the other person’s world(s) might be another, and one I have been talking about lately, maybe because I find myself thinking about ways out of the game… I am not going to be able to get top girls forever and I don’t think I want the rest of my life to be about chasing tail.

Some men also don’t like spending time with women (Krauser seems to be like this) and that impedes relationship/emotion formation. I’m not saying that men automatically have to want relationships or emotional connection but I am noting it.

Other levels could be devised, and I don’t claim this to be exhaustive… some levels could be collapsed and others expanded. “Theory” and “practice” for example are common divisions and those are fine too. You’ll sometimes run into keyboard jockeys who are repeating red pill ideas they found somewhere else, rather than telling stories from their own lives… I push many guys towards writing blogs because I want to read their stories and a large body of writing is often a good way to do a first pass as to whether they’re likely full of shit or not.

Another point around levels is 1. underlying value, 2. game/conveying value and 3. environment. Many guys attracted to red pill and seduction have low value and must raise their value (thus that conversation is happening). Without higher underlying value they will most often image match. A male 5 will find a female 3 – 5. Many guys can raise their value a lot through the standard red pill advice… if it is executed properly. Just like a lot of women can raise their value when they quit sugar, be less bitchy, etc.

A guy with pretty low value who tries to learn “game” is likely to be disappointed… and he is going to have a lot of corrosive interactions with women. Then he is going to sign up at the usual sites and complain about how mean women are, not realizing that he’s seeing his own value reflected back at him. If he is a 5 chasing 7s he is going to have a rough time. If he is a 5 who can raise his value to a 7 the game is still challenging but he will be much more in the game and much less likely to take to Internet fora to write about how women are super duper bad.

Neither men nor women are bad, on average…. there are bad individuals in each group…. if you think half the planet is universally bad… that tells us about you, not about women, or men.

Male value is more malleable than female value and men are more inclined to date up AND down in age range. The “bitter older woman asking where the good men are” genre occurs almost exclusively after age 30 and most often after age 35, when top guys in that age range are dating women in their 20s, or have already married and have families. If you read stories by women about how bad men are, you are almost always reading stories about how a woman is disappointed that a man who is +2 SMV compared to her doesn’t want to be monogamous with her.

This genre about the “good men” deficit exists because women are surprised that their SMV goes down and the guys they could get easily at age 25 are now passing on them or choosing easy sex without commitment. Delusional women think that they primarily desire social status / wealth / confidence / education etc. in men, so they will cultivate those virtues in themselves, only to find men are not totally indifferent to those things, but are not primarily moved by them. I mean, I’d love to have women in my life who make more money than me and are also hot and also want to lavish me with sexual attention, etc., but that is not a typical outcome. Most people see their incomes rise throughout their early lives and incomes tend to peak around age 50, and in the 45 – 60 range. I don’t believe I’ve ever had sex with a woman that old and my interest in it is nonexistent, though maybe one day I will (I won’t be able to get anyone else!) and, for most women, by the time they generate the highest incomes, they are not in my target priority pool. I understand why guys who are uncertain of their value and who don’t bring much are worried about higher-earning women but to be honest if you’re working on value in other fields you should be all right. Half of doctors and a lot of other people in the medical professions are now women and not all of them are unattractive.

“More malleable” status still requires putting in the work, which most guys can’t or won’t. Many guys are also building from shitty foundations, so the foundations must be torn up and rebuilt, and that’s hard. In some ways I have been building value since I was a child… and reaping it throughout my adult life. Many guys also don’t see the higher levels of game, which can get a bit “hippie” like when it comes to raising consciousness, helping others build their value, etc.

For example, there is the endless Internet talk of the “nice” guy. Women like men who are kind… but not men who are weak supplicants hoping to f**k based on being “nice.” Women do like hot, high-status guys who are also kind, not based on trying to get sex, but based on genuine non-reciprocity and conscious decision-making… from a position of strength. I am not a nice guy… I have slept with women who now hate me… I have fired people who needed the job but were bad at it… I have broken rules… I have slept with married women… but I have also been kind, at times. I have given value without getting anything in return. I have helped people, including strangers. I have gone the extra distance. I have played with small children in front of attractive women (I have a fun and favorite story about this subject). By the time I was 20 or 21, however, I had figured out that being “nice” to women is a turn off and demonstration of lower value (DLV) that moves me away from f**king her, not towards f**king her, so I quit doing that.

Do women like nice guys? It depends. Definitely not niceguys, one word. But do they like a guy who they see as having high SMV, who is maybe a little mysterious in some ways, doing something nice for someone else, without any expectation of things in return? Probably. But they also like funny guys… most humor has an edge… if you don’t have an edge, you won’t be that funny. I have made mean comments… told mean jokes… I will again too.

I am getting off topic, but I am overall in favor of Rollo, Reddit’s Red Pill and seduction, etc., even when some guys aren’t, because they the average or low level guy above his most basic level. They clear away a lot of bullshit mystification and set guys up to reach the higher end of their abilities. So that is a net win in my view, even if they tend to cluster at the lower level of the ladders, and I want mostly to talk about the middle and upper end of the ladders… there is a lot of good material on developing underlying game and value in Krauser, in the book Mate, in other places, so I don’t have anything unique to add there. Plus, game can be thought of a little bit like chess in that for good players the first 5 – 10 moves are memorized calls and responses and gamed out… the interesting stuff happens midgame.

But… to go back to the open forums and some blogs… some of these places focus too much on resentment, and how women are bad (they’re not, in most cases, unless men let them be bad…. women are mostly self-interested), how feminism is bad (modern feminism is bad, I agree, and I’m glad someone wants to fight that fight, but I don’t), etc. These places rarely have any talk about how to get guys from the medium level into the higher levels. I doubt most guys who get to the higher levels spend time in these places. The places with voting, tend to have strong crab-bucket mentality, in which low-level guys downvote anything that they can’t perceive, because it’s too high level for them to understand or get. Many of them are in the “anger” phase when they realize they’ve been lied to for much of their lives and that they would have been better off lifting heavy weights in high school than “being themselves,” soulfully waiting for some flighty teen girl to notice them, but she didn’t, cause she was off f**king a wrestler.

Without knowing where a guy is… it’s hard to address his needs, beliefs, etc. I have spent time at the lower parts of this ladder, with lots of limiting beliefs, etc., that meant I didn’t perform where I should have performed. That said I have not had some of the physical, intellectual, and social problems that some guys describe. I have not married the wrong woman and then suffered divorce-rape. I have not had some of the extremely bitter and caustic experiences some guys have, which damages their psychologies. I have had plenty of negative experiences with women, but none of the truly awful ones. Some of that has been luck and I don’t deny luck’s role. I have had a lot of luck! Given my love of raw dogging… a lot, lot of luck. Some of it though has been a decent amount of work building and protecting value. I also had a pretty early sense of reciprocity and value exchange… so if a woman was trying to take value without offering any in return, I was (somewhat) good at protecting myself from that. Not perfectly because in my teens and early 20s I was scared of top girls lavished a lot of attraction-killing retention, followed them around like a puppy, listened to their stories about the guys they really liked or were fucking, etc. I needed eye-contact work and escalation work. But I was never as low as some guys are/were, and I had some things going for me.

The bottom-level discussion online has clarified things for me, taught me things, made vague ideas concrete. I don’t scorn that level of discussion. Many guys need it. The absence of top-level discussion is revealing… it tells us about the state of the masses. That’s why I began writing the blog… I realized that in other venues, almost no guys faced the “where is this going?” conversation, and wouldn’t understand the dilemmas faced by guys who get it regularly. I realized that the high-level discussion of sex clubs for players would have no role. Most often the response would be “cuck lol.” For a guy who struggles to get and maintain one woman… who is worried about losing her… who is unsure about his own status… this response makes a lot of sense. I get where he’s coming from. He’s playing a risky game with rewards he can’t perceive. For a guy who struggles with liking women and wanting to maintain them while also achieving sexual novelty… this strategy can make sense. Where a guy is will condition his response.

There’s also nothing wrong with being a beginner… almost all of us start there… but most guys never seem to get past the most beginner of beginning stage.

It’s perfectly normal of course for a guy to be high level and not like what I’m doing. But a guy who is at the lower levels… he can probably barely understand what I’m doing, or the problems I’m familiar with facing.

In real life I meet plenty of guys who never get past the lowest levels. They’ve had one or a very few girlfriends they got by luck and circumstance. They don’t understand women. Maybe they got married and now their marriage is stale and they don’t understand why. Their wife or girlfriend isn’t intersted in sex with them. They stay together “for the sake of the kids” without understanding what is wrong. They “got lucky” with her. They say, “She’s the boss” (words that have never passed my lips and never will). They tolerate bad behavior because they think they have to. Plenty of guys never get past these levels… and they can still get a woman of some kind, have kids eventually, pass on their genes, etc., but the sense of mystery and frustration never ends. It troubles them when they are watching sports or playing video games… then their team does the thing, or their video game makes a fake fitness demand on them, and the trouble vanishes, cause the team just did the thing or the video game requires a move.

The red pill and seduction communities exist to boost these guys. Plenty of them will accept the boost… but not that many will go all the way… I am interested in the ones who want to go all the way, who want to play the game but also understand the game, who want to seduce women but also improve the women who are open to being improved and worth of being improved, the ones who want to master the game so they can move past the game.

I don’t submit myself as one who has surpassed the game or one who is at the highest levels… I can see the higher levels, I believe. Chances are I can never reach most guys cause most guys are at the lower levels or if they aren’t they will never find this. I can keep trying to do a little better, though.

Girls who do stupid things, like yell back at a carload of guys late at night

Last night I went to a party and afterwards came back with three other people, two girls and a guy. As we were walking back to one of the girls’s place, someone in a car full of black guys yelled… something… I don’t know what, at the girls. And the one I knew yelled back and gave them the finger. Mind, the hour was late and we were in a deserted neighborhood, a neighborhood that might politely be called gentrifying.

We were crossing the street, and the guy driving the car kept going, then stopped to start to spin around, to return to us. I told the girls to hurry, which the one who shouted didn’t really do… I kept an eye on the car, but fortunately it got caught up in some other cars coming and going, and we got inside the building. I’m not sure that the girls or the other guy realized what was happening, but, when we got inside, I told her that it’s not smart to yell at a car load of guys in on an empty street late at night… she disagreed some… she might be right about them being assholes, but that the time and place for taking her feminist stance was completely wrong.

I was also totally unarmed, without even an extending baton or real pepper spray (triple-action spray). I think this chick forgets that there are two worlds, maybe more than that but I will focus on these two… a predominantly white and Asian white-collar professional world with norms that focus on resolving conflict verbally, trading, making money, developing products, conducting science, etc. The other world is disproportionately black and focused on brutality, drugs, and prison mores (plenty of white people in this world too to be complete). It’s dysfunctional and a lot of people in the white, top world forget that the black, bottom world exists. Fail to remember this and you may pay for it… last night we were fine, but there were four or five of them and two of us. It’s somehow racist to point out that I don’t want to deal with a car full of guys and them being black makes it worse.

It’s a mistake to think your world is the only one… many white-world dwellers condemn the police, often justifiably, for publicized instances of brutality… but I think the police also absorb a lot of the ghetto world street mores, not lawful world mores, and the police forget that the other world of law exists.

Police also mostly keep ghetto dysfunction in its place. In many cities, we have built palaces to ghetto dysfunction called public housing, or just bad neighborhoods… but many people are pushing into those bad neighborhoods, and conflict results. White liberal voters want MORE palaces of ghetto dysfunction, as long as the palace is far away from their immediate neighborhood. I was basically in one of those gentrifying neighborhoods. If you go outside of your zone, you are also seeking conflict, which is not smart (unless you know what you are doing and do it deliberately, in which case good for you I guess).

Obviously there are many black people in the white, productive world and many white people in the ghetto values world, but the pattern is super clear, and assume the pattern holds until proven otherwise. That is why I wrote in the fashion post about two black guys I know/knew who did well with white chicks, and how they consciously or unconsciously worked to neutralize the ghetto race associations. The associations that the guys from last night were diligently working to cement. They were probably guys who are used to going to prison, have been in and out of it, etc., which are also the guys I don’t want to deal with unless I absolutely have to.

So I was annoyed with this chick. If she wants to pick a fight with a carload of black guys in an area with lots of traffic during the day, that’s her prerogative I guess. But it’s a f**king stupid thing to do late at night. I have become somewhat more preoccupied with just not putting up with retarded behavior.

I have talked about this before, but most chicks who have problems with guys invite those problems in. This girl’s behavior would be an example of inviting the problem in. I think I have a little bit more contact with or knowledge of the ghetto world than most white city liberals, so I am less tolerant of interacting with it. Overall I like this girl and no one is perfect, but damn it’s annoying to watch someone invite dysfunction into her life this way.

“Types, truth, bad vibes, and the red pill attachment style”

We haven’t had a Nash bomb lately, so “Types, truth, bad vibes, and the red pill attachment style” is very welcome, though it will disappoint guys hungry for field reports.

i like how you call most ‘red pill’ assertions as essentially either defensive or reactive to the woman’s imperative….this is absolutely correct in my opinion, and a huge drag on guys progress’ in learning to get better with women…..

I think it’s a little different… it depends where the guy starts from. For a lot of guys who have been completely unsuccessful their whole lives, it is necessary to start by protecting what little value they have. And building that value up. Without some underlying value, it’s easy to see only the “bad” side of women. Kind of like how fat chicks are much more likely to see the “bad” side of men… because she is sexually invisible, or visible only to the lowest guys, she finds the “men bad” argument very palatable. You almost never see attractive women who are hardcore feminists. It also seems pretty rare to see attractive men who are hardcore Red Pill “harsh truthers” to speak Nash’s language.

I never, ever try to create Anxiety in women. In no way does Anxiety turn women on.

Mr Anxiety is not only a Type, but he is also very confused on this topic. So much so, I am certain that Desire is not his specialty.

Even if Nash doesn’t try to create anxiety, I can almost guarantee he sometimes does. Maybe often does. When you withdraw attention. When she realizes she’s losing you. When she realizes that you’re higher value than she thought and she’s been a bit of a bitch. When she’s debating whether to see you that night or see someone else (not necessarily male) that night. Etc. At some point… she’s got to be a bit anxious about whether she’s hooked you, as much as you’re worried about whether you’ve hooked her. Typically the guy is worried at first, but the chick worries later on… if she’s never got some anxiety, that’s not great. Chicks are very attracted to ambiguous relationships, and ambiguity implies some anxiety about what the relationship is.

There is such a thing as too much anxiety and such a thing as too much security. Most guys generate too much security and are boring. This is the source of the “anxiety” advice. Within the context of a longer-term relationship, security is good… and there are different types of security and anxiety, and Nash talks of some of those types.

Notice how the hardcore Redpill guys are constantly yammering about bipolar girls (BPD). I’m a Secure type, I don’t aim for “broken” girls, so I really know almost nothing about BPD girls. My “vibe” doesn’t attract them. They are never in life.

I have pretty limited experience with really badly behaved chicks… I think most badly behaved chicks show themselves pretty early, in smaller ways, before they get to the really terrible behaviors, and I think that I notice, sometimes subconsciously, the bad behavior… and don’t reward it. So I don’t think I get far with the really f**ked up chicks. Or I don’t go deep with them.

A girl who is too fucked up… I don’t want her around. This includes chicks who want to extract money from me (for example demanding dinners out), chicks who are excessively negative, chicks who are too into drugs… there are probably some other types I am missing too. Oh I know, chicks who have a history of violence or violent exes.

The last one is important… contrary to the blue pill media narrative some chicks like violent guys and cultivate those guys in their lives. Like I said previously, most female bad behavior doesn’t spring from nowhere… for chicks, the same is true of men. Smart chicks see precursor signs of bad male behavior and cut those guys from their lives, fast. Dumb chicks, fucked up chicks… they see the signs and ignore them or worse like them.

All of our lives are patterned (a topic for another upcoming post)… if a chick has a pattern of past “abuse” or what have you… she is part of that pattern and you as a guy need to rid yourself of her. You will be the “next abuser” in her narrative of injustice.

The same thing is true at work. If you have a worker, colleague, whoever, who has a long history of supposedly being exploited by bosses, companies, etc…. you know the problem is probably with him. Anyone can get in a bad job situation once or twice… three or more times and it’s the worker’s fault.

There are more commonalities between job patterns and dating patterns than most red pill guys realize. Something to think about in that.

Most people will show/tell you who they are… usually not directly, but you can get the point. Believe them and react accordingly. Protect yourself to the extent you can.

Has Nash, or you, read KING WARRIOR MAGICIAN LOVER: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine yet? I don’t see it in Nash’s blog search. It is a book about understanding the self, and a book about types.

One more point, not very connected to the above… I heard from a guy who asked about Nash and I disagreeing with each other in comments. It was a bit of a strange message because it seemed to assume that two people must agree about everything, or be enemies? Whatever it is, I think we are more aligned than not, and I find his thinking very interesting. But it’s also fine and normal for people to have some differences of view and talk them out… like normal people… unlike followers seeking gurus online. Or gurus seeking followers. I am not a guru. I have done some things right… some things wrong… most things in the middle… ideally I am trying to help other guys accelerate their own learning.

For an example of some disagreement, Nash uses way too many capital letters in his post… we don’t need so many proper nouns. But that is a deliberate decision on his part, I’m sure.

I’m also a little bit more sympathetic to mainstream “Red Pill” than he is, in his post… for the basic guy, getting off video games, improving his diet, hitting the gym, socializing more, developing new skills and hobbies… just not handicapping himself… is likely going to do a lot for his practice with chicks. Just not doing the bad things is “enough” for a lot of guys to see significant improvement. Maybe not enough for a guy to become a true player, but enough that he’s no longer stepping on his own dick. If a guy can implement some basics… that is a big jump over his starting space.

Oh yes, and most guys are not reading at all… so they do not have the tools to understand human relations… some guys are naturals and don’t need that, some guys are too dumb to comprehend what they read, but a lot of guys aren’t living up to what they should because they have not discovered the many guys who have ALREADY asked the questions we all are asking, and answered some of the questions. The tools are available… many guys aren’t using them.

So there is my Friday afternoon rambling, before the Internet-free weekend. Go outside, talk to people, read a book.