Catch and release women who want families

This is a controversial one, and it’s only relevant to guys with intermediate or advanced game.

I think it’s wise to release older chicks (at least age 25, likely older) who want to have a family, when you (a man) don’t want one, or don’t want one yet, or don’t want one with her.

This point emerges emerges from Nash’s post, Back to daygame, a breakup, and a close call. He breaks up with an amazing girl, Miss Thick, because “her kids/family goals were real and that I respected them.” So I wanted to know how old she is…

She is 29… and from China. She’s a “Chinese” girl at heart… but an artsy, and unusual one.

Then I like the idea of letting her go and not having her dangle a lot of prime reproductive years. Let her go and tell her that, if her next serious relationship doesn’t work out, she can come back for a month or two of fun and recovery. She may come back or she may not.

That’s in line with what I wrote about frame and non-monogamy

over time [most] women have a biological need to find guys to have kids with and subsidize them and their kids. That’s part of the reason long-term, undefined, FWBs-type relationships are so uncommon. Few chicks will allow them, at least past the age of 25. Even if they do, they will drop the FWB when they find a hot-enough provider guy.

(If you’re dating a chick under the age of 25 in a contemporary Western country, you can ignore the last two paragraphs, because chicks that age are all about the feelz and the hot sex.)

Players know that it’s uncommon to have an undefined FWB-type relationship with a girl for more than 18 months. Even six months without the “where are we going?” talk is uncommon, because most chicks who don’t have a family want one. They may fuck up en route to getting a family, they may hit menopause, they may say they want one thing while in a cold state and do another thing while horny, but they want a family most of the time.

[Note this comment: “Lover” may be a better word than “FWB,” and I also screwed up a little bit of Nash’s story.]

Guys who are dating women over age 26 – 29 should cut those women free and tell them, “Girl, go get your provider guy.” This advice goes against some of the “Red Pill” comments amid the hardass maxims of anger phase warriors.

It’s true that it’s possible for guys to string along a girl through a lot of her prime fertility years. I’ve seen that many times. Yes, the girl should be responsible and break it off, but girls are weak (just like guys) and prone to wishful thinking (just like guys). Guys who put girls in that position will also often find… SURPRISE!… the birth control failed and you’re going to be a DADDY!

You jack her around, she’ll jack you around.

Plus, I think it’s unnecessary to waste years of a woman’s prime child-bearing life. A guy with strong game will find another girl. Maybe a better one. So the chick who wants kids the guy isn’t going to willingly provide should be released.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t sleep with chicks age 25 – 40. That would be insane. Those chicks want one-night stands and orgasms and hot lovers, just like younger chicks. I’m only saying you shouldn’t string them along for long periods of prime fertility time. You should be direct about not being their baby’s father. It’s tempting to tell her, “Maybe I’ll want kids… someday…” while her eggs wither.

In my view, it’s often better to be the bigger person and enable people to live the right way. For most women, that means letting her have a family. Normal girls in the right age bracket who want kids will leave the guy when she figures out he’s a player, but some need the push. At least be honest, and then let her go when she’s ready.

If a guy gets into a position of strength, he should get into the habit of helping people build the right lives (this is NOT being a doormat “nice guy”). Guys in a position of strength and choice shouldn’t string along chicks in their prime fertility years. Guys in a position of strength should try to help others become who they are meant to become.

I don’t preach about living better. Not much. I do show it. That means zero sugar. That means inviting chicks (and guys!) to the gym with me, after an appropriate period of time. Obviously I’m not doing deadlifting on the first date. But if I’m going to the gym I invite her to go with me, whoever the “her” is. I’ve probably taught ten or fifteen girls how to swim for exercise or how to lift. That’s ten or fifteen more than most guys. If a girl is going to become part of my life, she’s going to do what I do and learn how to do it. Most guys have lives of TV, video games, and Internet. Not much of interest to a girl in there.

Those girls also know I’m serious about the body. Talking about the joys of lifting in an online dating profile won’t totally repel fatties but it will help. And when I meet a girl for a drink for a first date, if she’s too fat, sometimes I’ll just leave and sometimes I’ll invite her to the gym. Not necessarily that night but in two days or whenever. Their reactions are funny. Especially the ones who say, “Are you saying I’m fat?” Easy response: “I’m saying I’m going to the gym and you should come.”

In a position of strength, a guy can say, “I want you to go find a man who will give you a family. In the meantime, if you want to keep having fun with me, do it. If you find a guy and things don’t work out and you want a break, text me.”

Sometimes she will. Chicks can be like comets, swinging into a guy’s solar system for a couple weeks at a time.

I also have weird ethics. I think women in the 29 – 40 age range who genuinely want children should be released by guys who catch them and who have investment from those women. This essay only applies to a guy with a woman who is invested. If she’s not invested it doesn’t count.

If a guy’s game is strong and he’s in the secret society, he won’t have trouble moving on to the next woman. But in my ethical inversion, I like sleeping with chicks who have boyfriends or husbands (now you can see why I don’t talk about the deepest shit with people I know). Not even swingers or poly people will admit that kind of thing. I think humans are ill-equipped for long-term monogamy and that if she’s available for seduction, I want me in her instead of some other guy swooping in. Among humans, women are the guardians of sex, men are the guardians of commitment. Feminism tries to obscure that basic fact, but it is true.

Next post up should continue the non-monogamy theme. It’s the one I keep mentioning, about how sex clubs layer on top of conventional game. In my view, for the right man they are a powerful tool, but I don’t think I’ve seen any active game guys writing about them.

Addition: “I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whole Life”  is a case study of a woman who fails to realize that family matters more than partying. I’ve dated and f**ked women like her. She is the sort of woman who a guy not interested family should catch & release.

The holidays are coming up: shit tests, comfort tests, and gifts [intermediate and above]

Everyone reading this should be familiar with shit tests and if you are not then quit this post and read. For 90% of guys, shit tests are a sticking point and this post is useless. For guys who’ve overcome most shit tests, however, comfort tests can be the bigger problem, especially for medium-term FWBs / lovers (relationship skills and pickup/seduction skills overlap some, but there’s a lot of space separating them… it is possible to be better at one than the other). A while ago I saw a post titled, “Be careful of being too Alpha, Comfort Tests are far more lethal than Shit-Tests.” Good advice.

The holidays can present comfort tests for guys with medium- or long-term FWBs (or even girlfriends). Guys who are focused on one-night stands or very short-term things can ignore this.

The comfort test is easy to fail by either doing too much (many guys) or too little (players). Gifts are an element of retention. When you first start banging girls you don’t have to worry too much about keeping them around, but over time the vast majority of women consciously or subconsciously want to “advance” their relationship with a good guy. Most women also bond with guys who are fucking them and giving them orgasms. This is doubly true if you’re going bare. (Almost no one talks about the overwhelming, primal intimacy of unprotected sex.)

Like I said, it’s easy to fuck up through doing too much comfort (if you are a novice at fucking hot women or more than one woman at a time, quit reading and get more experience). When I was way younger I had the bad habit of thinking that grand romantic gestures and gifts would endear me to women, because that’s what I saw in movies and read in novels. But when I tried grand romantic gestures in real life they totally flopped.

As a younger guy I had no idea why. Now I do. I used to think that the women didn’t like me. Now I know Women love romantic gestures but only from a guy they consider to be higher status than they are.

Women love romantic gestures that the woman has earned and achieved. Romantic gestures and gifts are trophies for her. She has vanquished other women, who are her romantic rivals, and she has won the heart of a hard-to-get man, who is finally willing to show his affection towards her in the form of a gift. All those other women have LOST, and she has won. What a sweet victory for her. Women love to compete too, just in domains that are adjacent to the ones where men want to compete.

I wouldn’t accept a judo black belt because I haven’t earned it. I wouldn’t accept a PhD diploma because I haven’t earned it. Women don’t really want gifts they haven’t earned. Of course they often will take free shit if someone foists valuable free shit into their hands, just like you probably would, but they might feel grimy about it. If they have any character, they will feel grimy about it (although they might still take it). Normal people know that almost nothing valuable is “free,” and valuable things that are “given away” have strings attached. When you give a woman unearned gifts, especially expensive ones, she thinks you’re trying to bargain for sex with material goods… and there is already a profession devoted to that practice.

Only use gifts to reward good behavior. Never use gifts as a bargain, to curry favor, or as a trade. Fucking you on a regular basis is good behavior that should be positively reinforced.

I’m sure many of you are about to write comments about how giving things to chicks is BETA. In the wrong circumstances, it is. In the right circumstances, it’s not. Context changes the perception of a given action. Guys at the start of their journey shouldn’t worry about this at all. Guys with regular FWBs might think about it.

Giving a gift, especially an unexpected gift, can be an element of what Tom Torero calls “contrast game.” Listen to the whole podcast, please, if you are at least intermediate level. A guy who is mostly aloof and does push-pull and is mostly focused on sex can improve his connection with a woman by sometimes (not often, but sometimes) doing the opposite.

Preferably unexpectedly.

The unexpected gift, especially from a guy she’s been casually seeing yet who she worries will not commit to her, will get her wondering, “What does this mean?” She may ask her girlfriends about what her mystery man could mean. She thinks he’s f**king other girls (he is) but he also gave her a necklace for Christmas. Does that mean he’s serious about her? That he likes her more than other girls?

And on and on. Think of it as the positive side of the hamster.

So if you have a woman you’ve been fucking somewhat regularly, consider getting her a small present for the holidays. Only give gifts to women you’ve been sleeping with semi-regularly. I’d say at least three times or for longer than a week, but there is no hard and fast rule. Whatever you do, DO NOT GIVES GIFTS TO WOMEN YOU HAVE NOT FUCKED. Not now, not ever. You will lower your own value in doing so and will decrease the likelihood you will ever f**k her.

I put this in all caps because guys who are skimming this and about to write a moronic rebuttal comment need to see it.

The gift shouldn’t be as expensive as possible; it is truly the thought that counts. A stuffed animal or bar of chocolate or inexpensive necklace will do. If she thinks she’s earned the gift, she will value it more than she will a $10,000 engagement ring or an expensive, fancy, uncomfortable dinner with a guy trying to buy her love and her sex. The best gift I ever got a girl was for a girl who loved pickles and so I got her some for her birthday.

For girls who’ve been around longer or more consistently, high-quality but inexpensive jewelry can be good. For example the company Diamond Foundry makes cultivated diamonds. I know and you should know that diamonds are bullshit but most chicks have been brainwashed and marketed into loving them anyway. Diamond Foundry will sell necklaces with real gold and real diamonds far cheaper than conventional jewelers. If you know a guy in the jewelry business (I do), he may also be able to help you buy pre-owned necklaces, which are far cheaper than new ones. Don’t go this route unless you have a trusted expert, however, as there is probably no industry except modeling that is more lie-filled than jewelry.

Ignore the above if you’re short of cash. If you have lots of cash,  consider it.

Vibrators and other sex toys also make good gifts.

Anyway, a guy who delivers a little bit of comfort you will set yourself off from most player assholes. The key phrase is “a little bit.” One of the commenters to my earlier post said,

Shit Test – Too little masculine polarity.

Comfort Test – Too much masculine polarity.

Well-stated. I have been both and while you should err towards too much masculine polarity, you can overdo it. I have, and I made women pointlessly suffer by being too aloof. I’ve also made women drop off far faster than they would have otherwise.

If you are like me, you might get over your initial challenges and then decide that you’re too badass to deal with her feelings or to deign to remember birthdays or holidays.

This will both make her feel bad (as well as used) and reduce your performance. A couple dollars, a box, and an air of mystery will go a long way. A little comfort also goes a long way and you should be 80 – 90% aloof, mysterious asshole, but that tenderness will up your game. There is a good book, Mate: Become the Man Women Want, that uses the term “Tender Defender” for what women want and like. They want a guy who isn’t a p***y but who isn’t mean to them. When I was younger I went through phases where I was like, “I’m so fucking hard, I’m the boss, I don’t do fucking Valentine’s day,” dumb shit like that. That was a slightly better stance than giving girls I hadn’t fucked flowers in public… but it wasn’t ideal either.

If a girl is investing emotionally in a guy, she may start testing him for comfort, as she doesn’t want to invest deeply in a guy who is going to hurt her or who just wants t ouse her for sex. Contrary to what some pickup guys say, girls DO get very emotionally invested in a guy… just a very small subset of guys who she picks to get emotionally invested in. Once she’s become invested in a guy, she wants to protect herself, and she’ll do that by testing to see if the guy is invested in her as well. That’s the comfort test. If you don’t comfort her when she needs comfort, she will disengage and bitterly call you a “player” or “fuck boy” or similar.

(Adapted from a previous version, [Intermediate to advanced game] Valentine’s Day is coming up. That can be a comfort test. Similar ideas apply to Christmas and Valentine’s Day. I was listening to the Torero podcast on contrasts and realized I should update.)

“What are your rules for talking about RP concepts?”

In response to “Warning about falling into the girl’s frame,” on Reddit this guy asked:

What are your rules for dispensing knowledge? (RP and non. RP)…. Who/When/Why. Seems there are a lot of stupid people and thus many opportunities are presented.

While there are no hard and fast rules, most of the time a guy shouldn’t talk about RP stuff at all… to the extent I do, I talk with women I’ve already been sleeping with for a while and who are thus in my frame already. Like that warning post: I’ve been sleeping with Bike Girl for a while. It’s possible to drop RP hints here and there as teases, but I don’t recommend going into full professor mode, probably ever. But there are a few principles for when you do talk…

1) Never use any of the jargon. Many people intuitively understand the ideas, but the jargon will repel them.

2) Must be done in a playful, cheeky way. This goes back to the idea of teasing. In addition, playful and cheeky can be plausibly denied later or as needed.

3) Should be done either 1:1 or in small groups. In large groups you don’t want standard BP conditioning to take over.

4) Less is more. Don’t address someone’s entire worldview or ideology. Don’t be a priest. In the example linked above, I didn’t shit on feminism or make huge pronouncements on all aspects of men versus women. The point was constrained to one facet of male-female dynamics and centered on the friend’s real experience.

5) Be ready to back down. This may not read as “alpha” to typical guys online, but social circumstances aren’t an academic debate. You’re chatting with people and it’s not worth blowing up good social vibes for some issue most people don’t give a shit about. This is related to point 2. If someone gets huffy, just say, “Whatever, live your life” and move on. The smile or smirk are key. Amused mastery is better than being “right,” except sometimes at work where being right matters more. Social context matters for everything. If you are an engineer or doctor, then being factually correct is very important. If you are chatting with your friends, being cool is more important than being right (or being seen as being right).

6) The real knowledge comes not from what you say but how you live. Your life is the best example. Pretty much no one cares about what you say (sorry, but it’s true). People admire or dislike you for how you live and what you do. People listen to high-status people they admire, not some blowhard with an average or below-average life, even if that blowhard is technically “right” about whatever. Like I said above, in an engineering meeting, being right matters, and in most other human social endeavors it does not. Many celebrities who you and I are think are dumb have more influence than you or me because they’re widely admired. Socially admired people have influence and weirdo outsiders spouting strange theories of human behavior do not.

This is another way of saying, status/coolness FIRST, then talk about whatever the thing is. Do you take advice from the bottom people in your field? No you don’t. You listen to the top people. If you’re not a top person, no one is going to listen to you. Get the life first. People listen to Ray Dalio about investing, not the poor joe on the street who just leased a car he can’t afford because he thinks the monthly payments are so low. That poor joe can’t do math. He’s not building assets and he’s risking bankruptcy for no good reason.

7) While most guys don’t want to hear this, Red Pill and pickup attracts a disproportionate number of social retards. One sign of being a social retard is not knowing that you are one. If you are a social retard, the first thing you need to do is learn not to be one, because you are going to have an even worse time trying to teach other people than a normal guy would.

I’m sure there are other principles, but those come to mind. When in doubt, shut up. Seriously. Shutting up is underrated. Most people like to hear themselves talk and talk about themselves. Let them. A little encouragement goes a long way. No one cares if you’re right.

I’ve slept with far more girls through shutting up at the right time than I have through talking or being “right.” Dale Carnegie’s How To Win Friends and Influence People is still a great book. It’s not clear from the original post I wrote, but in that conversation I talked far less than I listened, and I listened for a long time to the friend. This may read as “beta” to less experienced guys, but, again, most people like to broadcast and don’t care about the objective reality of a situation or how to improve their life. People who really want to improve their lives are the exceptions. Look at the fatties all around you: most would like to not be fat, but they can’t be bothered to improve their lives.

If you are dealing with normal humans in normal social situations, perception matters more than being “right.” What is “right” is not even clear or obvious in most situations. Save being right for your math and physics classes.

These things are hard to do and require social savvy, and that’s why most RP people say, “Don’t talk about RP.” That’s easy and less likely to lead to errors. A delicate touch is necessary. Most online RP people seem to be angry and not socially savvy, so it is not a surprise that they get burned when they attempt to tell others about the Red Pill without first improving themselves.

Guys, branch swinging, and the low-effort shot

This morning I chatted up a girl in a coffeeshop whose order was screwed up. Don’t remember everything I said but I told her that it sucks to be at the stage of your career when you’re getting other people coffee. It was a cold read but a true one. We chatted for a bit and I told her to give me her number and we’ll get together sometime. She said she had a boyfriend, I said that’s okay, and she laughed and still said no.

A completely normal interaction, but I thought about it because I’ve been seeing Bike Girl but I still want to keep my skills somewhat sharp. Approach and escalation skills can deteriorate fast.

It’s also good to take the random shots that show up in your life because you never know when one might succeed. Around the time I started writing about the Red Pill I was closing out a relationship with a girl who I started seeing when she was 19. That was a low-effort shot and I happened to snare a “yes girl” who was looking for something exciting in her life. She was (and likely still is) the somewhat rare girl who is considerably hotter nude than clothed; clothed I judge her a center-of-the-road 7, and nude I judge her a high 8 (if she learns how to dress better she will get more and high-quality male attention).

We saw each other for about a year and a half. Like some other girls she required very little “game.” Well, apart from status, style, frame, posture… all the pre-reqs. Point is, it’s always a good idea to take the low effort shots when they appear. Sometimes the girls are ready for something new in their life. This morning’s girl wasn’t, but if I’d met her at another point she might’ve been.

I’m seeing Bike Girl, but just as girls “branch swing” into new relationships, it’s useful for guys to test their place in the sexual marketplace too. Not necessarily for a better offer, not automatically, but to see who is reacting and how they’re reacting (it’s possible to “friend zone” chicks in order to keep them on deck, but most guys lack the game and lifestyle to make this a reality). Girls can sense a guy with options and when you take the easy shot you make sure, first of all to yourself, that you have options.