The three-date “rule” before sex

Players (and, more often, wannabes) talk about the three-date “rule” before sex… guys will say, “If you don’t have sex by the end of date three, drop her.” I think this rule is too strict, so instead of mindlessly following it, analyze the mindset and experience this “rule” comes from… guys who are used to being taken advantage of, and from guys who are probably taking girls on expensive, elaborate dates (like dinner). Those guys worry that the girl is just tooling them for money and attention. If you’ve presented yourself as a provider guy and are spending $50+ per date… the girl might show up just to get free meals… like a squirrel in the back yard will keep showing up to eat birdseed, instead of going through the arduous process of hunting acorns. Smart and functional girls know that nothing valuable is truly “free,” but they might like the attention and have nothing else going on, so they’re happy to absorb free meals and some male attention, even if it’s shitty low-quality attention. Guys have also heard stories about fast pulls of hot girls and then think every girl can/should be pulled and f**ked fast… my own stories like this one advance the “girls will f**k fast” narrative.

This is the wrong mindset… Krauser’s memoirs, for example, are full of stories about five or more dates before sex… some hot girls need time. Instead of chasing speed, apply a simple test to the girl and the dates…: 1. is progress being made? and 2. Do you enjoy spending time with the girl? (I may have subconsciously stolen these from someone else, and if so sorry… I am not claiming to be the first guy to talk about the subject at hand…). You could add 3., does she seem to be tooling you for value? Some girls are intensely pleasurable to be around, and some girls are a chore whose presence might be okay if that’s the road to sex but otherwise have little going for them.

Experience will help you feel out each situation. Mr. V wrote “+1. Was able to get past LMR this time! Prob worth a lay report to dive deeper/lessons.

Now, imagine a girl breaks up with you, then you fly 8 hours to see her, and the very next day she fucks some other dude…

Last night I was that other dude”

Good work Mr. V. Another guy predictably wrote, “Hats off to your patience, I would have given up after 3rd date.” Mr. V replied with the text I mentioned, about progress and pleasurable company . Mystery’s 7 hour rule is an average. Some girls can be had in less time, some girls need more time. “Progress” will mean different things with each girl, but I’d count something like kissing, making out, touching her body, her touching yours, feeling her responsiveness, etc., as progress. If she’s ice-cold on the first date and ice-cold on the third date, then it’s time to roll off and let her go.

If she’s running hot and then cooler and then hot again, maybe she’s deciding between guys, or has something else going on. Some girls will also be ready to f**k but then get their periods, or get colds, or have something else that gets in the way and interrupts momentum, but, if the guy is patient, it will happen. If the guy throws a fit because she’s not willing to f**k on his schedule, she’s learned something useful and negative about him.

Clearly each guy should do what he wants to do. But some hot and wonderful girls take longer than others… they have not been my main study, but they can be good. Patience can be good. I also don’t buy into the idea that the longer a guy has to wait, the better the girl is. Some quality girls are horny and want it now, some need to know the guy better and spend more time with him. How fast she goes is not a perfect indicator of how much she likes you. Some girls who are so-so about a guy in the beginning will warm up to him over time.

The quality of girl will also vary with how much energy you put into dating her. I might go for a lower-quality girl who is convenient and available… but I wouldn’t put a lot of effort into chasing her… this seems pretty obvious to me.

Mr. V may have a longer field report incoming… expect a link when it appears.

Asking a girl too many questions, date structure

I’m ambivalent about Blackdragon’s work… some of it is good, and one real player I talk to has learned a lot from him, and BD was talking about being a player and consciously using non-monogamy before anyone else I am aware of. But, to counteract the good, BD was pimping some kind of absurd, expensive “alpha male” conference: the sort of thing I address in Location-independent businesses are rarer than online seminar hucksters would have you believe. No real-life alpha male calls himself an “alpha male…” it’s a pretender title. This week BD’s post is “First Dates – Let HER Do the Talking.” Find it yourself if you like… it’s an okay post, because, if you get the right chick, then yes, letting her talk is fine. But some chicks… they don’t talk.

Reasons why are endless. They might not have any personality. Some chicks will also be intimidated by you (a thing newbie guys forget easily). If you approached her, learned about her, asked her on a date, have a real life, etc., she may be more scared/nervous of you than you are of her. I have been on dates with chicks who barely talked… I did most of the chatter… I touched their hands… then their arms/shoulders/hair whatever… then we kissed… they came back… and we f**ked. I didn’t do much but talk and then escalate. If you have a girl like that, who gives one-word answers but is also DTF, then the “ask her questions” advice is borderline retarded because she can’t or won’t speak.

There is more calibration needed than the advice gives,

2. Don’t talk unless you’re asking a question.

The person asking the questions is the one controlling the conversation. Therefore, you need to be the one asking the questions. Most of your statements on a first date should end with some kind of question. This will keep her talking and you quiet (hopefully). This applies to online dating as well.

Not necessarily. Sometimes the one asking the questions is just passive. Have you been interviewed by a journalist or by a kid looking for a mentor, people like that? The person asking the questions in those situations is often NOT controlling the conversation. He is giving up value by being interested and showing status to the other person. The person with the status is controlling the power and the conversation. When I see mistakes like this I begin to wonder, “Has the person giving advice been the person with the power? At all? Or is he a bottom guy?” “Bottom guy” is the Yohami/Nash term. Still no Yohami blog from what I can see, which is a damn shame because that guy’s got great shit to say.

Back to talking on dates, let’s go back in time to the early blog posts I wrote… I was looking through them this week… found this one, about how the need for basic game skills is still high. “Like 97% of the date was her talking about super non-sexual stuff, like she would to a girl friend, and the guy listening like he was getting paid to hear this girl’s blather. When a girl talks and it’s a sign of investment, that’s great. If she’s leading because there’s a leadership vacuum that guy isn’t filling, that’s terrible.” The guy in that story was not talking… and also not leading. The girl was having herself a friendly chat, like she would with a eunuch or a girlfriend. Too many questions, or a girl who is happy to have bad chat with zero heat and zero sexual energy, means the guy must redirect the conversation in the sexualized direction he wants it to go. He is better off forcing some heat into the conversation and having the girl say no, than letting her make him her latest girlfriend. If she can’t accept any heat, then she’s not going to f**k you.

It’s also often better to prefer statements over questions, another point missing.

On some of the best dates, the girl gets excited and talkative, and it’s the player’s job to just not f**k it up. Keep her talking all the way back to your place, where you undress her and f**k her, riding good vibes the whole way. I think that’s what BD is envisioning and it’s a good vision, but it’s likely to be fewer than half of your dates. Those are great dates… when and if you get them. A lot of chicks are boring, nervous, have nothing to say, want to be led, etc. Try to engineer the great dates but don’t expect them.

I guess I’m building to the idea that there are low-status-guy assumptions built into the post, and guys who aren’t pretty game savvy, who haven’t dated a lot (I have) won’t spot them. When I see that kind of thing I worry, cause what else am I missing? There’s a difference between differences of opinion (lots of opinions around, lots of guys I like and respect while disagreeing with this point or that idea) and then there are things that are just plain wrong or missing vital elements, as I am discussing here. Some bits of that BD post are true, especially for newbies, “Often, men talk a lot because they’re nervous. The less nervous you are, the less likely you’ll talk too much.” He’s right on about that. Particularly for newbies. I have been that nervous guy, though not recently. Today I have too many life experiences to be that guy.

When I see “just wrong” things… it elicits doubt, even in the face of a lot of correct things. I want to keep up the demystification process.

A guy privately asked me if I think BD’s results are real. My money is on they’re real, but the chicks are not that hot. If I were willing to consistently bang 5s and 6s, chicks age 33+, chicks carrying 15+ extra pounds… I could use online dating and write about an insane cornucopia of f**king. There is an endless stream of such chicks out there and available, because most guys don’t want them. I’m interested in attractive girls who are of normal weight for healthy humans. The contemporary western world does not produce so many of these as I would like and it shows in my results. I would prefer more 8+ chicks but they are usually a stretch for me and that shows in my results too.

“When was the last time you were tied up?”

It’s a favorite date question, though not one that should be used in the first half hour to forty minutes. Unless you have a freaky yes-girl. It can be used as an hour-long, first-date spike, sprinkled amid non-sexual topics.

Often it should be framed as, “Tell me about the last time you were tied up.”

Notice the phrasing: “When was the last time” or “Tell me about the last time” assumes that it’s happened before and that it’s normal. As opposed to, “Have you ever been tied up before?”

I should make a list of favorite date questions and pseudo-questions. I never have, but many of them recur. “Tell me about your peak experiences” is another.

If the chick says she’s never been tied up, look at her quizzically and pityingly and say, “That’s weird. Never? How old are you again?”

I think this (usually) works for me because it starts to make her qualify to me, and if she says she’s never done it, she gets to thinking about why she never has. Does she not inspire enough lust and creativity in men? Is it something else? Has she always dated inexperienced losers?

Or do I just like freaky yes-girls?

I know less about why things work than that they (sometimes) work.

Favorite tactic: girls on dates [FR]

I dunno why, but I’ve had an eye for girls waiting on dates and especially girls on bad dates, and I like trying sneaky shit like telling girls, “You look bored waiting for your date.” One of my typical openers at a bar when I see a lone girl clearly waiting for someone is, “You must be waiting for a date. You think it’ll be any good?” Sometimes they’re waiting for a husband or boyfriend, but sometimes they’re not, and it’s a good quick icebreaker that starts with a quick sexual frame that isn’t gross.

This isn’t exactly an [FR], but it has some [FR] elements.

One recent example was in a coffee shop. There was an older but still slender and tight blonde woman who I pegged to be in her late 30s to early 40s. She was with a super nerdy, overweight and balding guy who was talking to her about programming and explaining his bitcoin company to her. I actually thought he was pretty interesting but her body language was so obvious that you’d have to be blind (or a total nerd I suppose) to miss it.

He got up to use the bathroom. I turned to her and said, “I can see your date isn’t going well. How’s online dating?” She said it wasn’t very good. I was, “That’s too bad. Here, write down your number quickly and we’ll go out. No bitcoin talk, I promise.”

Got the number and said, “You’re a former dancer, right?” She said, “How’d you know?” It’s obvious but I guess most guys are dumb. Guy came back and I studiously read my book.

(There is a term for this, I think it’s called cold lead, where you guess something about a person. If they say no, you can ask a followup question about them, and if they say yes they think you’re a brilliant person. Sherlock Holmes stories are filled with such things. Con men and “psychics” also use this technique. Smart people know how to see through it but it can be powerful in the moment even to smart people, and if someone is open to being seduced, wellllll. . . .)

We went out two days later. During the date, she told me that she wanted to find someone to have kids with, and I told her honestly that I’m the wrong person for that, but I’m the right person to see in the meantime. Through the date I could see her struggle with her principle (only guys who might give her a last-ditch shot at children) with her desire (sex is still fun).

I calibrated towards being a physically oriented sex guy. IMO it’s bad to lead on older women who want kids with the promise of monogamy and kids. They have only a limited period of time to have kids and it’s unethical to deprive them of that chance. Yes, women do many unethical things to men, but I still believe that having kids is one of the most important things a person can do, and even if women have mis-prioritized their lives they should still get their shot. Some things that most consider unethical are, properly considered, ethical, like sleeping with women who are married or have boyfriends (another thing I like to do). But with a woman who wants kids, it’s fine to say I’m not a kid guy and they should have fun in the meantime till they meet the kid guy.

We talked about dancing and her barre routine too. Lots of fitness things. I have been in this situation before, and some women who want kids fast thank me for my honesty and say no. Good for them. I hope they have kids. This one bit and we saw each other for a while. At the end she broke down crying saying that she wanted me and that the only guys who wanted her were guys she didn’t want. I felt bad for her but to be honest that’s the kind of dumb shit I expect to hear from 23-year-old girls, not women in their 30s or 40s. She is old enough to know beter but like so many people she wants contradictory things and can’t reconcile those things.

Like a lot of women, she wants children and a long-term relationship, but she’ll settle for sex right now, especially when she’s frustrated by a guy without game who she met online.