Asking a girl too many questions, date structure

I’m ambivalent about Blackdragon’s work… some of it is good, and one real player I talk to has learned a lot from him, and BD was talking about being a player and consciously using non-monogamy before anyone else I am aware of. But, to counteract the good, BD was pimping some kind of absurd, expensive “alpha male” conference: the sort of thing I address in Location-independent businesses are rarer than online seminar hucksters would have you believe. No real-life alpha male calls himself an “alpha male…” it’s a pretender title. This week BD’s post is “First Dates – Let HER Do the Talking.” Find it yourself if you like… it’s an okay post, because, if you get the right chick, then yes, letting her talk is fine. But some chicks… they don’t talk.

Reasons why are endless. They might not have any personality. Some chicks will also be intimidated by you (a thing newbie guys forget easily). If you approached her, learned about her, asked her on a date, have a real life, etc., she may be more scared/nervous of you than you are of her. I have been on dates with chicks who barely talked… I did most of the chatter… I touched their hands… then their arms/shoulders/hair whatever… then we kissed… they came back… and we f**ked. I didn’t do much but talk and then escalate. If you have a girl like that, who gives one-word answers but is also DTF, then the “ask her questions” advice is borderline retarded because she can’t or won’t speak.

There is more calibration needed than the advice gives,

2. Don’t talk unless you’re asking a question.

The person asking the questions is the one controlling the conversation. Therefore, you need to be the one asking the questions. Most of your statements on a first date should end with some kind of question. This will keep her talking and you quiet (hopefully). This applies to online dating as well.

Not necessarily. Sometimes the one asking the questions is just passive. Have you been interviewed by a journalist or by a kid looking for a mentor, people like that? The person asking the questions in those situations is often NOT controlling the conversation. He is giving up value by being interested and showing status to the other person. The person with the status is controlling the power and the conversation. When I see mistakes like this I begin to wonder, “Has the person giving advice been the person with the power? At all? Or is he a bottom guy?” “Bottom guy” is the Yohami/Nash term. Still no Yohami blog from what I can see, which is a damn shame because that guy’s got great shit to say.

Back to talking on dates, let’s go back in time to the early blog posts I wrote… I was looking through them this week… found this one, about how the need for basic game skills is still high. “Like 97% of the date was her talking about super non-sexual stuff, like she would to a girl friend, and the guy listening like he was getting paid to hear this girl’s blather. When a girl talks and it’s a sign of investment, that’s great. If she’s leading because there’s a leadership vacuum that guy isn’t filling, that’s terrible.” The guy in that story was not talking… and also not leading. The girl was having herself a friendly chat, like she would with a eunuch or a girlfriend. Too many questions, or a girl who is happy to have bad chat with zero heat and zero sexual energy, means the guy must redirect the conversation in the sexualized direction he wants it to go. He is better off forcing some heat into the conversation and having the girl say no, than letting her make him her latest girlfriend. If she can’t accept any heat, then she’s not going to f**k you.

It’s also often better to prefer statements over questions, another point missing.

On some of the best dates, the girl gets excited and talkative, and it’s the player’s job to just not f**k it up. Keep her talking all the way back to your place, where you undress her and f**k her, riding good vibes the whole way. I think that’s what BD is envisioning and it’s a good vision, but it’s likely to be fewer than half of your dates. Those are great dates… when and if you get them. A lot of chicks are boring, nervous, have nothing to say, want to be led, etc. Try to engineer the great dates but don’t expect them.

I guess I’m building to the idea that there are low-status-guy assumptions built into the post, and guys who aren’t pretty game savvy, who haven’t dated a lot (I have) won’t spot them. When I see that kind of thing I worry, cause what else am I missing? There’s a difference between differences of opinion (lots of opinions around, lots of guys I like and respect while disagreeing with this point or that idea) and then there are things that are just plain wrong or missing vital elements, as I am discussing here. Some bits of that BD post are true, especially for newbies, “Often, men talk a lot because they’re nervous. The less nervous you are, the less likely you’ll talk too much.” He’s right on about that. Particularly for newbies. I have been that nervous guy, though not recently. Today I have too many life experiences to be that guy.

When I see “just wrong” things… it elicits doubt, even in the face of a lot of correct things. I want to keep up the demystification process.

A guy privately asked me if I think BD’s results are real. My money is on they’re real, but the chicks are not that hot. If I were willing to consistently bang 5s and 6s, chicks age 33+, chicks carrying 15+ extra pounds… I could use online dating and write about an insane cornucopia of f**king. There is an endless stream of such chicks out there and available, because most guys don’t want them. I’m interested in attractive girls who are of normal weight for healthy humans. The contemporary western world does not produce so many of these as I would like and it shows in my results. I would prefer more 8+ chicks but they are usually a stretch for me and that shows in my results too.

35-year-old New York City woman can’t understand why she’s single

35-year-old New York City woman can’t understand why she’s single. That’s not the given title, it’s “I Hate Dating Apps So Much!” This woman hates dating apps because she’s older, she’s probably living in NYC (tough dating market for chicks, good for guys), and the guys she really wants prefer to date younger, hotter chicks. From her teens to her early 30s she was probably used to dating guys +1 or +2 above her, and now that is not happening and she’s frustrated.

The writer is likely suffering from diminished sexual-market value, as she says, “I know that, as a reasonable, open, attractive woman, if I keep trying, I’ll find someone eventually.” She will find SOMEONE if she assesses herself correctly, or moves to Seattle, where hordes of desperate men will happily wife up older women. The advice-giver says, “Building your own belief system is the exit route.” This is the typical bad advice chicks give each other, and it’s bad advice because it doesn’t consider the environment in which the first woman exists. It doesn’t consider stage-of-life questions. It doesn’t consider what else the writer is probably doing wrong in the men she most prefers.

Both women exist in the land of emotion and not the land of information and they suffer for it. It’s sad to watch women offer such ineffective counsel to each other, like it’s sad to watch guys attempt to solicit dating advice from chicks, since chicks often don’t know or won’t admit what they really want, as opposed to what they tell guys they want.

“Why Online Dating Can Feel Like Such an Existential Nightmare” means do daygame

Why Online Dating Can Feel Like Such an Existential Nightmare” means, “Do daygame, bro.” If every chode is online and scared to approach chicks in person, you can exploit this market inefficiency by learning to approach chicks in person.

Way back when I first experimented with online dating, it seemed that online dating was a market inefficiency in that unusually horny chicks who wanted casual sex would hop online because they could pursue it without social consequences. Introverted chicks could meet guys without having to shed their introversion.

Now… everyone is online, real world social skills have degraded, and that implies daygame is a big improvement. My own recent experience online was epically different than my experiences ten years ago. Good strategies change as the larger environment changes. There are still probably positive aspects online and as a complement to your real game it could help. Looks more and more like a dumpster fire to me.

Short Dancer vignette

I was thinking about Short Dancer, a girl I saw on and off for like six or nine months, a few years back… on and off, because at the time I wanted her to come to the fleshpots with me and she would not, despite my persuasion work. I wish I’d been monogamous with her for a while, or “monogamous” in my case, as I think I liked f**king her better than just about any chick between now and then. If I had done that, though, this blog wouldn’t have the stories it does… even fewer people would read it than read it now. Despite the numbers and the experiences and the groups that I’ve done between her and today, I liked Short Dancer a lot, enough that I think I made the wrong decision with her, partially because I had a lot going on at the time, and, when I have a lot going on, it’s naturally harder to commit, even temporarily. Sometimes one great chick can be better than 10 okay or good ones… that’s why I think a lot of guys in the game quit it or take long breaks from it, when they find a girl they’re really into, who reciprocates the interest. When you have enough good, but not extraordinary, experiences with chicks, the best chicks become the reason you continue.

Short Dancer was young and in some ways has a conservative temperament… that may surprise you, since she was with me for a time… though in other ways, ways important to me, she does not, and the tension between those two was an interesting part of her personality. I kept trying to get her into a sex shop with me, for example, and she would not go… one time I picked her up in a fireman’s carry and made to bring her in, but her objections seemed to be genuine, so I put her down and we continued on our way. Apart from fleshpots, she accepted many of the things I wanted, and the sex with her was just about flawless… her beauty, her willingness, her submissiveness, her femininity… we had a great dynamic, better in some ways than w/ other chicks since then (which is why I feel like I made an error in letting her pass, to go chase other chicks who are often very good but not quite on the level of the thing we had).

Short Dancer came from an ecosystem, so there’s no game story around her, apart from me cultivating masculinity and making a move when the time was right. So few guys cultivate masculinity today. There’s also not a great story about why I like her more than other chicks… I just do. Good physical chemistry went a long way with her, plus, she also didn’t throw much in the way of shit tests and didn’t have the hot-young-chick disposition around relentlessly tooling guys, going to clubs/parties, etc. The chicks who like basic clubs, attention on social media, that kind of thing, I tend not to get along with them, even when I rope them in, and that could be part of the reason I found the Tinder experiment so awful.

Short Dancer is one of those girls who look even better nude than clothed… I wasn’t 100% sure what I was going to get when I undressed her the first time, but I got everything I might have wanted. She liked posing nude for me, and I like that… she showed some of the shots to a girl we mutually knew, and the other girl was like, “Wow.” Couldn’t believe it, even though the other girl is a too-heavy tramp, or maybe just an attention whore… hard to say. She was too basic for me. Short Dancer also really liked taking direction, even more than most chicks, which I also like.

No real lesson here, just some musing. When Short Dancer was in my life I felt pretty good. The age gap is too large for her to be a good long-term prospect. She is one of the very few girls I find occupying my head space… I jerk my attention away from her, but if I’m not careful it drifts back to her, in a way that it doesn’t drift back to most other chicks. At the time I don’t think I appreciated her, and I was still excited to go chase new chicks… something that I find myself less excited by right now.

In private someone asked if I’ve tried to get her back in… and I have! Unsuccessfully. She also had, maybe has, an official boyfriend, and both of us have complicated schedules, plus, now there is a distance challenge. We all make mistakes, and letting her go was  one of mine… not one that I really consciously made at the time… I let her drift, and she sensed that I wasn’t going to do the monogamy she wanted. Red Pill doctrine incorrectly holds that chicks who you are “aloof” from are going to pine for you and keep coming after you forever… that is true of some chicks, but more functional, intelligent, and self-aware chicks who want a boyfriend/partner and do not get it from you, are going to cut you out and get it from someone else. They may boomerang back periodically based on what they’re finding, and based on guys who won’t make them their girlfriends, but when they find an acceptable guy who will commit, they will depart, and they may simply never talk to you again.

I miss Short Dancer… not something you hear on a lot of player blogs. Do most guys not miss particular chicks, or are they not willing to admit it? Genuinely don’t know the answer here. The best psychology is always oriented towards the future, so maybe guys wisely don’t dwell on the past. Yet many players online seem intent on maintaining a hard-ass facade.

Mismatched sexual market value (SMV): Diagnosis and cures

On Twitter there’s a dumb thread (the woman deleted it and I didn’t keep a copy… probably too embarrassing for her) about a chick complaining about guys using her for sex and then ditching her, usually after bad sex. That’s an easy diagnosis: she’s almost certainly chasing guys who are +2 or +3 above her in sexual market value (SMV). They’re not going to date her, they’re not going to try in bed, but if she offers herself up one of those guys will go for her. I’ve been in the guy’s position before… my natural hunting ground is 7s: chicks lower than that aren’t of much interest to me, while chicks who are true 8s, are just not that common and are often particular. I’ve been there with 8s, I’ve succeeded, but I don’t see/meet very many of them, let alone bang them. I’m also just some hot chicks’s type, and when that happens I can cruise right into bed.

A few years ago (around the time I started writing on Reddit, or just before that) I tried an app called Kinkd, which advertised itself as being something like Tinder or Feeld for kinky people; as players know, “kinky = easy & sex positive.” Downside, though, is that most openly kinky chicks are not the best looking. Fetlife has the online market pretty covered, but I gave Kinkd a shot and managed to meet two okay chicks, high 6s, without too much work; both were novices and liked that I knew about parties, events, etc. Don’t underestimate social proof in this area, either. Both chicks seemed like they might be 7s, based on their duplicitous pics, but real life reveals all. One was a straightforward once a week lay for a couple weeks, and things ended when she said that “all guys are the same” because I said I liked her but didn’t think we are compatible for primary partnership. In a way she was right… if she is chasing guys +2 above her, we’ll often take her for a spin but don’t want to buy. Rent/lease is enough.

The other chick I did more or less the same thing with, although she was more reluctant to have actual sex. But the first time I saw her, I basically fingered her g-spot into a multi-minute orgasm of some kind (at least, she said it was). It was a strange experience for me and, I think, for her. Did do a lot of bonding in a small space, though, and because my SMV was higher than hers and I also didn’t slut-shame her, she was into me fast. Too fast. They’re the kind of chicks I am now mostly trying to turn down, as marginal notches.

It’s good for guys to give chicks a good sexual experience, even if the guy decides he’s not that into her. It’s not that much extra work, yet many guys don’t bother… most chicks are also responsive to toys, and something like an njoy pure wand is a good tool for both a chick a guy is into and one he isn’t (just for different reasons).

Female SMV is pretty straightforward for short-term activity and a little more complex over the long term. Male SMV is trickier and more contingent; chicks have a wider array of factors they’re looking at and are just more arbitrary. But if a guy is getting consistent blowouts, his SMV is probably too low. Chicks are also herd animals and will value a guy with a girlfriend, even a low-status one, over a guy without one. Having one makes it easier to get the next. Guys can branch-swing too, although most lack the skill, discipline, game, and inclination to do so.

Most chicks who complain about pump-and-dumps are simply chasing guys too high above them. Chicks with reasonable expectations find what they want. People who have an accurate assessment of their SMV and act accordingly tend to do fine. This is more common among guys but still less common than it should be.

Everyone has the same options: improve their value; improve their game; change their environment. Chicks who are chasing guys +2 or +3 above them… are going to get the kind of outcomes this person is complaining about.

Added: Another story, same basic situation. Mainstream writers won’t write frankly and honestly about SMV, particularly female SMV. That does a disservice to women, but the market for “You’re perfect, just the way you are” is much larger than the market for “This is how the real world works.” Most of us actively like our delusions and do not want to hear reality.

Game or relationship “levels:” Different for men and women

There are different “levels” of game/relationship skills, each with its distinct but overlapping characteristics.

Meeting/getting laid: This is the stage most game guys live in: for guys, it’s often a struggle just to meet chicks and get laid. Most guys need to up their sex appeal, social skills, fashion, etc. Some guys are also living in bad environments (rural areas, suburbs). Most chicks don’t talk much about this, as it’s not important to height-weight proportionate chicks in their teens, 20s, or 30s. For chicks it’s not hard to get laid, even by guys who are +2 or +3 in sexual market value (SMV). Chicks would do better if they opened more guys, but that’s like telling the average barista they should just move to Silicon Valley and become a programmer to improve their life. The advice will be relevant to like 1/100 people.

Short-term relationships: These are usually easy as the honeymoon effect is strong and for that reason there is not much to say here. Lust and novelty maintains the relationship.

Medium-term relationships: These probably last from two months to two years. I have written a lot about how to manage expectations with these chicks. Guys who want novelty but want to retain chicks find this stage difficult.

Chicks who write about medium-term relationships are almost always writing about how to get this relationship into the long-term relationship. Most dating advice by and for chicks lives in this space and later. Most dating advice by and for guys lives in the meeting- and short-term space. For most chicks, just showing up or logging online is sufficient to get laid. But for most chicks who have decided to invest heavily in a guy, this is one of the hardest stages. Many guys begin to feel the call of the wild again after 100 or 200+ bangs w/ a particular girl. Dating power shifts to guys after sex and in this phase.

Long-term relationships (without kids): I don’t get why most guys would want to be in a very long-term, monogamous relationship with a woman unless there are kids involved, but some guys do this. The big problem for both men and women is boredom. For financially dysfunctional people, the big problem may remain daily living. Not much chick advice lives here.

Long-term relationships with kids: This is another place where lots of dating and life advice exists for both guys and chicks. It’s hard to do successfully. Competing interests are common.

A lot of man advice focuses on stages one and two. A lot of chick advice focuses on stages three and later. Does it seem like men and women are having different conversations around dating, relationships, and sex? That’s because we often are. I wrote “Kids, the player, and the Red Pill: Comprehensive statement” to offer some thinking to guys who are age 30+ and who are doing well in stages one and two. Guys online who do well in stages one and two seem to stop writing, as I will likely do.

Game helps the most at stages one and two. It obviously helps in the later stages, but the big boost is stages one and two. I’ve read players who say that game gets you in the door, but then you have to try living in the house. Once you are regularly tagging a chick, she is going to start to see who you really are, what really drives you, what you do when you’re sexually satiated, what your family constellation is like, etc.

Emotions and Ms. Slav, Low-cut top girl and a weird foursome

Last Friday, after a decent interval since I’d last seen her (er, had sex with her…), Ms. Slav came over and we discussed this, and what else in her life has been going on (a lot), what else has been going in mine (not that much), and the nature of being in different stages of life. The sex was weirdly tender and emotional… I don’t think it was “goodbye sex,” but it may be “de-escalation” sex. She is still learning a lot of things (more on that later). One nice thing about Ms. Slav is that pretty much any time we get together, we have sex, no matter what else is happening. Regular f**king really does smooth over a lot of other issues… if more women understood this and implemented it, the divorce rate would be considerably lower. Just getting on the knees and sucking a couple times a week really does strengthen relationships. Couples therapists need to start assigning blowjob therapy if they are serious about helping people in relationships.

Low-cut top girl DID show up to the foursome, and I was pretty surprised. She dressed in an outfit very similar, or maybe identical, to the one she was wearing the night I met her… only two months ago… feels like a lot longer.

The foursome was pretty straightforward, although early on the woman in the other couple asked a lot of questions about how we know each other and what our relationship is like. I thought I might be headed home alone, as the other couple could tell we don’t know each other well. Many couples prefer to swap with another established, firm couple, as that limits some kinds of jealousy, as well as some mate-poaching behavior. Alcohol and novelty won the day, however, and I split a hotel room with the other guy. Woman was pretty but not too special, late 20s/early 30s, and she and her man had clearly made the full swap decision ahead of time. The other guy wanted to make a sex tape (like me!), but she nixed it. All in the game. I did a really nice job railing her from behind and got into that zone where the sex is pleasurable but not so overwhelming as to make me finish early. The woman also didn’t tighten as much as some women do when they orgasm, so that let me keep going. High-performance nights are always nice.

The other guy had performance troubles, so I gave him a bit of substance to help, and about 45 minutes later he was ready to go. I told him that it’s common to seek certain aids in that situation, as it can be harder to perform in a group among novel participants than among basic one-on-one sex. Plus, just trying to put people at ease when they’re uncomfortable or anxious goes a long way to solving discomfort or anxiety. “It’s okay, don’t worry about it, it happens to everyone sometimes” are all magic words. Sort of like how players know that “It’s okay, you can leave any time you want to” often disarms LMR. I have sometimes stood up when I’m with a girl and moved away from her and said, “The door is right over there. I’m not forcing you to do anything you don’t want to do. You can walk out now or any time.” A little comfort is useful.

Overall a successful evening. Low-cut top girl was annoyed that I wouldn’t let her stay in the hotel. I needed to go home and told her needed to as well. She argued that I had already paid for the hotel, which was true, but I told her that I also needed to go home. I told her that if she wanted to stay she had to give them her credit card, which she wouldn’t do. Bit of an ugly scene. May have cued the other couple to make an independent play for her. I hope they do. Low-cut top girl is absolutely the sort of chick who’d clean out the mini-bar and order $500 in bullshit on my card. Doesn’t speak well of her, now that I read my own description of her. I need to find more compatible chicks. I would actually trust Ms. Slav not to do that kind of shit. She might do it inadvertently, because that’s what she does in expensive hotels.

This week, Low-cut top girl has been sending me a lot of messages (many of them I’m not replying to, in keeping my “once per day at most” texting and Internet distraction philosophy) but refusing to come over… that might be for the best. We’ve been on an accelerated timeline, so maybe from open to ending is going to occur in less time than usual. After our foursome that is surprising, even to me, but that foursome may have been a one-time thing. She samples the food, doesn’t care for it, is glad she tried it, moves on with her life.

Low-cut top girl also wants to know why I don’t take her out to dinner, which, along with music/concerts, has been a historical sore point and push-pull point for me and chicks. I told her to read The Millionaire Next Door (a great book, you should read it). I might give her a copy if I see her again, though she is the kind of girl who is going to yo-yo back and forth or just ghost me when she finds another dude. I have lower financial discipline than I did when I really had no money… I need to quit buying camera gear, which is a vice of mine… but I still have pretty decent financial disipline… and part of that is just not spending money on stupid shit like expensive dinners out. I like a lot of what are now called “fast casual” places… she apparently likes expensive sit-down places? I dunno, I can countenance those at work… I can deal with them rarely… a lot of the time I’d rather just have some falafel or a burrito bowl, plus extra cash in pocket. Real freedom is not having to worry about money.

Most restaurants are also just too damn noisy, and that’s terrible for social bonding or learning.

Mostly, though… it’s the money… and the number of people who are better to talk to, than a book is to be read… well… it’s not as high as I’d like. This girl also liked expensive restaurants, but she was kind of weird in public… she’d be fine in private, one-on-one, but didn’t interact well in public. It was like dating two different chicks, personality-wise. Oddly, that girl wants to get a drink w/ me… I have been meaning to do it.

I tweeted, “Building the mind is a lifelong project.” If you are not reading you are probably not learning as much as you can or should.

Ms. Slav, though… Ms. Slav is also discovering the downside of saying “yes” too much… she is stretched thin. I would phrase it as, she is giving away a lot of value… so everyone is coming out to grab some… and she needs to retract / guard her value a little better. Chicks would never frame something this way… but that is what I see. I told her about my growing discomfort with how I am living, and my desire to do something different. I think she gets it. Although she thinks I can do family AND do the life I have been living… it’s not impossible, just really f**king unlikely. One rule in game is to assume the median girl, at least until proven otherwise. Guys know that it’s POSSIBLE to be standing around at a regular party or whatever, and have some stunning 8 open you and then f**k her later that night. It’s also POSSIBLE for Tinder to work that way. It’s just super unlikely. You want to take high-percentage shots. In today’s NBA, that means threes or right next to the basket. It’s POSSIBLE to win with a lot of long twos… just not likely.

Guys who want to win, try to put themselves in the best position possible to win at whatever their game is. For a guy who wants to be in the game, that means moving to a city and not living in a rural area or an exurb. For a guy who wants a kid (or more kids), how I am living… is not the optimal way to go about that goal.

With Low-cut top girl, I feel like I am experiencing deja vu… she is new to me but is overall close to the typical female. So close that I feel like I’ve already seen everything she says or does. Ms. Slav is the exact opposite.