Diminishing returns to “learning more game”

There are diminishing returns to “learning more game” or “improving your game.” Average or below-average guys who begin learning game (they improve themselves and their value-delivery mechanism) see rapid improvements. As average guys move away from being average and spend more time with women, they lose their ridiculous views about women and learn that women are people too and have their own set of reproductive, social, and sexual challenges. Women make many mistakes in the dating game, but low-level guys are blind to many of the mistakes, and to many of the feelings women feel.

Once you learn the models, you maximize your own value, you sort out your psychology, you do the things you need to do, you start seeing the results… you will probably run out of room to grow. Male-female polarity is very old. The game is very old. The growth of feminism and changes in birth control have, however, led men to need to discover, or re-discover, game in each generation. Optimal game today is not precisely what optimal game was in 2000 or 1980 or 1948… social media and phones have layered some nuances that didn’t exist then. But the fundamentals remain.

I don’t think there is NOTHING left to discover. There are new ideas left. The big ideas in game, around body, fitness, health, style, male-female polarity, eye-contact, accepting rejection, gentle teasing, escalation, push-pull, hot-cold, demonstrating higher value… I get them. I don’t implement them perfectly and have many f**k ups of my own. New guys need to master them of course.

There are aspects to my game that could be improved. My cold approach is actually not that good. Usually I rely on something observational, which is not always the best way to go. But, like I said, it has been “good enough.” In the last ten years, it’s been pretty rare for me to feel desperate.

This is also why I think I will end up not writing much more here. There are aspects of the game I can improve… but they are not that big and I don’t care much about them. When the skill has been mastered, execution becomes more important than study.

It’s been a while since I’ve been truly surprised by something a woman said or did. Unfortunately, I also have persistent, annoying injuries that prevent me from doing all that I’d like to do in the gym. That shows up in body terms. I’m still above-average, far above-average for my age, but not where I was or could be.

Lots of swings and lots of misses (FR)

[This happened before coronavirus shut the world down, but I didn’t put up the story right away.] 

Went to a party without a date… but I went with friends who vouched for me and functioned as dates. They brought extra girls (who weren’t appealing to me, physically or intellectually/psychologically, but that happens). The girls took some drug that made them very friendly.

I knew a few girls at the party, including this one (again)… and she is now ROUGH. When I first started seeing her I’d have given her an 8… by the time I wrote about cutting her loose she was more like a low 8/high 7 and now she is like a 6… not fat, exactly, but weird rolls of stomach fat and fat legs. I saw some girl going down on her and thought “She is only 26 and looks awful.” Her life is a trainwreck too, and the fall over a short period of time is a testament to the destructive power of drugs, even “legal” drugs (of the wrong kind and taken too frequently). I feel bad for her, because all of her relationships, whether with friends, lovers, roommates, etc., have been severed, often abruptly and in a difficult way, by her behavior… and she doesn’t appear to understand why. I pity her. Drugs and other problems are ruining her life and career. I may check in and see if she’s trying to get off them.

Met a couple who didn’t know each other well and had met recently… a couple who don’t know each other well and aren’t officially dating means that the girl may be up for grabs (something that I don’t think I thought to include in the book). The girl was somewhere between a high 6 and mid 7 but I liked her vibe… she was bouncing with excitement and pleasure when I met her, and enthusiasm is infectious, like coronavirus, but less dangerous. She’s also a kinky slut, and much later I picked up her contact details, and her dates’s.

Did a ton of spanking & flogging. Few people there appeared to know what they were doing with BDSM and the fact that I’ve developed those skills seemed to set me apart. Lots of audience, which started with me spanking my friend. Didn’t seem like anyone else brought floggers.

Closest shot on goal was a girl, Alyssa, who I spanked and who LIKED pain. I spanked another girl who was super cute, with a newbie boyfriend. Great to spank but said she has high pain tolerance (she doesn’t). Then her boyfriend wanted to be spanked, for some reason, to know what it was like? Not my favorite thing to do but it seemed like a moment when I ought to just go for it, so I did, and explained to him what I was doing, what I think about, how I check in with the girl, etc. So it was like half spanking, half tutorial. Couldn’t tell if I was getting bi vibes off him… I hope not. But the main way people learn this stuff is peer to peer, so I did some education? Don’t fully know how to interpret this, so the question marks.

Alyssa… I really worked over her ass and thighs. Long warm-up. Lots of flogging, eventually leading to full-on backhand, like a tennis player’s backstroke, with a paddle. The buildup allowed her to access that part of her. Most guys rush girls too much at every level, from the first kiss to the foreplay to the f**king, when girls want guys to move like 50% slower. Not so slow as to be languid, but more deliberately than most guys go. Be assertive enough for her to know your desire but understand chicks need more time than most guys give them. Alyssa did a lot of kind of annoying topping from the bottom, but I didn’t know her and so didn’t call her out on it. Spent a long time working her over, and interleaving touching gently and some kissing. Very passionate kissing. After, I asked her for sex and she said no but that she wanted to see me later. Later, we went to another area and talked, then made out some. I moved her around some, which she seemed to like, and set her up to grind. It was erotic, feeling her hips move and the sharp intakes of breath as she got going. I got about half hard, which she could feel, then she backed off again, saying she wasn’t into sex that night.

Some more negotiations followed and Alyssa didn’t want to f**k, Although she didn’t say it, she knew exactly what I was trying to do by heating her up, and she didn’t want to do it and only wanted to make out. She negged me by saying that I seem “goal oriented.” I laughed… she’s not wrong. Didn’t have a great response, honestly, because agreeing made me seem a little slimy, and the opposite wasn’t true and claiming not to be isn’t consisten with what she’d seen of my personality and skills. She wanted to know if I was going to stay and I was just like, “I’m tired and heading home.” Maybe could have played last cock standing but I believe the gold seam was played out and produced no nuggets, just a few flakes. With Alyssa I think she knew what was up, what her strict limits were for whatever reason, and that was that. She lives out of town, so I doubt I’ll see her again. Will follow up today but I’m not optimistic. I told this story to one player who said

There’s a weird negative vibe on chicks who are a “no” to f**king. It’s different from LMR. It’s like you can feel their mindset is set to No.

I lose interest pretty quickly if she is not at least open to f**king.

Part of the annoyance is when you sense on a limbic level that the purpose of her not f**king is due to a power dynamic and not because she is not ready/in the mood. It’s a huge turnoff.

I would offer a counter take on this… Alyssa wasn’t open last night but might be in the future. She was a forebrain override girl, one who liked that I had met a lot of people, spanked a lot of chicks, and demonstrated social competence and BDSM competence. There weren’t a lot of unoccupied cute girls. Transparently losing interest too fast is a mistake… it gives bad vibes to the girl and also f**ks up future events. I have her # and will ping her. A few weeks or months from now it could happen. She’s a good person to invite to random events when I don’t have anything else going on.

It’s bad to get the reputation as the guy who chases girls and then does a 180 when they won’t f**k right away. If the player abruptly pulls away once or twice, okay, lack of chemistry but it’s an undesirable reputation. There’s always the short play, in the moment, and the longer play, over time and over reputation. The discipline to make the longer play will lead to greater success, I think.

At the end, talked to a couple, the guy less hot than the girl, and the girl just gorgeous. Huge breasts on a very small and petite frame. I would’ve loved to f**k her. They’re relatively new to the world, so I took some contact info. Unlikely to go anywhere but some seeds have been planted. She’s the sort of girl who might look “okay” in street clothes and then turn out to be stunning naked.

Fair # of mismatched partners with girls much hotter than the guys.

Kinda miss the girl from the last big party, who I saw again once and has gone silent. Beautiful sexual chemistry with her, more than with anyone since Short Dancer, probably. Such quick sexual chemistry. Am I the same for her, or am I just some guy she f**ked? I’ll ping again in another week but going anywhere with her is doubtful. Relationships end, so I hope I’m top of mind when/if hers does.

The last couple events I have attended without a direct date, and that is doing this on hard mode. Harder mode anyway. Bringing a date leads to a higher probability of success.

I mean to write less but the inner voice speaks too loudly.

Learning

* Chat with people.

* Demonstrate competence. I learned how to do BDSM from a combination of online tutorials and guides and in-person. If you’re at an event and see someone who is doing it well, watch what they do and try to imitate it. Even ask them how they learned or what they were thinking about doing (after they’re done… never interrupt. Watch but don’t interrupt.)

* Play the long game.

Priorities and what you bring to life

Women who prioritize families and long-term relationships, and who have reasonable expectations of the men they date, get married and have families and do their best to stay married. Those women are out there, but they’re not much discussed among the red pill / seduction / masculinity communities because they’re mostly invisible to us… Red Pill Dad and I have a conversation in his comments section about these issues, and I’m reminded of “Katie,” a woman I knew years ago, when I was in my early to mid 20s (she was, and still likely is, a year or two older than me). Probably a low 8 then… slender with no rack, so maybe she was a high 7 with a pretty face and pretty blonde hair, and during our friendship / interactions / flirtationship, she said she hadn’t had sex until she was in college and had had sex with 3 – 4 men by the time I met her, all in a relationship context. She was in a long-distance relationship, and I kept angling to get her into position to make my move, and she kept successfully angling me away, while keeping me in her friend orbit (we had some mutual things in common that kept us around each other). Good sexual tension between us. Eventually I did my move and she said no, hard, firm, and kind, although her long-distance relationship died of natural causes sometime after that. Tried again and she said no. Why? One, she was a year or two older than me (she didn’t cite that though it makes sense), but, most importantly, she knew I wanted to be a player, not her boyfriend.

A part of her liked me and the sexual tension, but her conscious forebrain knew what I was about and that I wasn’t going to wife her up. Katie also came from a rich family and I think had excessive income expectations. We had good physical chemistry and made each other laugh… she was bright, too, and had a bubbly personality, and when a guy is potentially offered quality champagne it is hard to turn it down for whoever’s next, since the next girl might be watery beer. I bet she was/is good in bed. She had strong sexual presence yet I don’t think she was going to unleash her sexuality outside of a relationship. I telegraphed “player” and also had uncertain earning potential and she knew that, and chemistry was not going to get in the way of her large goals.

Katie married the next guy she dated, or the one after him. She’s not on social media very much and never has been… to the extent she is, she’s depicted with her husband and family. No or little politics, no or little posturing. At that distant time when I knew her, I wasn’t properly strict on the “no friend zone” thing, so we kept in touch longer than we should have… I say “longer than we should have” because our professional life goals diverged, and our personal life goals were never aligned (I wanted to f**k a lot of girls and she wanted a secure family, that being the opposite of her family growing up). We had personalities that meshed in some ways but we didn’t have enough in common to sustain our connection, and I wanted to spend time f**king girls, not hanging out with a pretty girl I wasn’t going to f**k. She tried to hook me up with her unattractive friends… as usual, her attractive friends had boyfriends already. One of them was insultingly overweight, so maybe my estimation of her estimation of me is lower than I have been portraying.

Today she been married quite a while and has three kids… looks amazingly good for having had three kids, but she has the slender body type that handles aging really well, even if she was never going to be a high 8 or 9. Could have had a little work done on her face. A lot of stunningly curvy women droop early, while some of the slender women who are less hot as 22 year olds grow into themselves. I have slept with women who are less attractive than she is after three kids (you probably have too).

We never know what will happen, maybe Katie will have a change of heart and dump her husband to go do the f**king around she didn’t do when she was younger. Maybe her husband will turn her in for a younger model. Life is unpredictable and I don’t know her anymore and haven’t truly known her for a long time. It’s also possible she’ll experience the deep satisfactions of seeing her family grow. It’s further possible she doesn’t have the much-discussed hypergamous disposition. If a player stopped her on the street or flirted with her in a bar, she’d probably laugh at him, or indulge him for a few minutes then say, “No thank you.” Players wouldn’t get far enough with her to make her memorable.

Stories about chicks who f**k a bunch of dudes really stand out in the mind, like stories about terrorism. Terrorism works at generating publicity because of the way the human mind works, even though you’re statistically more likely to die from excess sugar consumption, opioids, or cars. Stories about women cheating with 10 random dudes are more interesting than stories about women who thought about it but didn’t. The guys whose marriages go through a rough patch and then recover have much less need of red pill and seduction than those guys whose marriages dissolve. The guys who grow up with a good family and robust social skills have much less need than guys who don’t. Etc. “Selection bias” is real. I bet Katie’s husband doesn’t spend a lot of time online and doesn’t spend it in these Internet precincts. Why would he?

In red pill/seduction/masculinity communities, you’re disproportionately surrounded by guys who picked the wrong woman, probably without realizing what they were doing, and without the context to understand that you can’t make a hoe a housewife. You’re surrounded by guys who were cheated on, divorced, etc. Guys who grew up with single mothers, or with fathers who were weak. Guys with deficient social skills. That’s reflected in the worldview being generated by these guys. The male equivalent of the women whose sexual market value (SMV) mismatch problems have made them bitter towards men.

If your father ever taught you much about women, perhaps he told you a similar story…

More likely, however, he didn’t. Mine didn’t.

And if I had to guess, there are a lot of guys out there like me who had perfectly good fathers (in every other respect) who never really taught us about women in the way they taught us about the sea, hunting, fishing, cars, sports, etc.

The guys who are in (basically) happy marriages don’t have much to say because they’re not out hitting the streets chasing strange puss, and they’re not looking for deeper answers after seeing half their incomes diverted to their former spouses, and their former spouses’s new boyfriend. The guys who are true players probably have good social skills and gym routines and would find much of the anger and hostility online to be strange and off putting (as I suspect a lot of the red pill / seduction guys are in real life).

Katie realized correctly that I wanted to be a player, not her husband, and she reacted appropriately. I have met women who realize I want to be player but give in to their desires, and then find themselves frustrated when I am not interested in helping them pursue their reproductive life plans. Smart women mostly don’t make these mistakes, or, if they do, they have their month of fun and then jettison the fun sex guy in order to pursue the monogamy provider guy.

Most essentially, women who want monogamy find it. They don’t live in New York City, or in the big expensive party cities. They play no games, or fewer games than women who are addicted to interpersonal drama. If those women recognize a guy who does the things they want… a provider, a good earner, loyal, willing to commit… they will latch onto him and work to keep him. As they should. They will suss out who he is. Does he want to have a family sooner, or later? Does he have a good relationship with his own parents and family? Etc. They talk about their own desires to get married and have a family, since those desires can scare off players. They will bring other skills to the relationship than sex.

For a contrast, look instead at the 30-something female journalists, usually fat, who write about how there are no good men out there. Those women prioritized their careers over their families and chose to f**k fun-loving bad boys who didn’t want to commit. Then, as their SMV declines with age, they want to get out of the market, only to find out that their SMV is declining, and that they’ve practiced few of the skills that make long-term relationships work. They have lived lives that are largely the opposite of Katie’s, and they lack the self-awareness to understand what they’ve done or take responsibility for it. They have a lot to write about because they have to write something new every day or every week, and their failure to recognize how male-female sexuality works means that they can’t find the obvious principles underlying their decisions.

Let’s look at one description of modern women, “many, if not most women have become self-publishing soft core pornographers, posing with their asses in the air or wearing scantily clad bikinis or semi nude in their bedrooms making duck lips–those bored ass eyes, sexy and yet soulless.” I doubt this has ever described Katie or women like her. Plus…

women have a burden too–unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for those of us who are players), it’s become extremely reductive in modern society: be attractive (enough) and give sex. That’s basically it, and as many players have noted, this seems to be the only thing most women today are capable of providing. Maybe why I get so excited when I come home after a girl spends the night to find my bed made or my apartment tidied up.

I think Katie brought a lot more to her relationship than f**king, and I bet she selected a man who brought a lot more to the relationship than just money, or just decent sex. In this way she is like Anna, another girl who fits the “not very sexually adventurous” mold, although Katie is prettier than Anna and better than Anna overall. I’ve met plenty of women who bring little to the relationship apart from sex and I mentally tag them accordingly. They are the women who want to know why guys just want easy sex from them… and they are the kind of women who don’t want an honest answer to that question. A guy who has problems with the entire opposite sex usually has true problems within himself, and the same’s true of women. As guys interested in seduction we learn to improve ourselves. A lot of women don’t have those same self-improvement voices in their ears.

Recent additions to the sex club guide book

Two recent revisions to the free sex club guide book, both inspired by conversations with guys who read it.

Breeze wrote to me, “Before I read your book, I thought sex clubs to be drunken, bacchanalian parties filled with drugs. Your descriptions make them seem much more like friendly social gatherings where people have expert manners. That actually makes a lot more sense because there needs to be ‘hidden rules’ in place for this sort of ecosystem to be sustainable.” Exactly. Almost no large and public sex clubs allow drunks or people who use drugs to excess, or to the point that they violate other people’s space and desires. Sex clubs only work to the extent that women feel safe at them and to the extent that men know their dates won’t be molested. Take away the safety and the club will swiftly die, for good reason. People who violate the rules will quickly be ostracized (again, for good reason).

Think of rock climbing. Rock climbing is inherently dangerous. The people who do it successfully (and don’t die) are often very conservative about equipment, weather, and training. They make absolutely sure their safety gear is top notch and in good working order. If they see signs the weather is turning, they turn back, even if the summit is close. They train hard to consecutively reach more difficult mountains, glaciers, or rock faces, and no one smart starts with Everest, K2, or even Denali. Something similar can be said for sex parties: the people who do it successfully often plan their evenings and dates. They decide what their limits and rules are for a given night. If they want to change the rules for their next date or club, they can. They check in with their partners. If something seems off about new partners, they disengage. And the people who do sex clubs successfully look for others who share the same ethic. Drink and drugs that impair one’s ability to function properly and to respect others are not going to work with these needs. Manners and etiquette, however, help people structure interactions. Being too mannered is stultifying, but not being mannered enough is rude or confusing. People who are successful in a given situation learn to operate between those poles.

Another, not connected to the one above, occurred in a private chat and Magnum suggested it be stated explicitly.

Let me also pause to say this book throws a lot of data and ideas at newcomers. Pull back from the barrage of new ideas and remember not to overthink the experience, despite me dumping a bunch of data. the sex club and party are supposed to be fun and relaxed. If you get too in your head, too into trying to decipher every moment and motivation, the club won’t be as fun. Your girl wants to have a fun adventure with you. Think back to high school or whenever you first started dating. If you sweated every detail, every moment, every word said to the girl, you were likely too anxious to achieve flow, and the girl could sense your anxiety. Do enough planning and thinking to make the event happen without driving yourself into over-worry. The first time you try anything new, it’s not going to go perfectly. This book distills ten+ years of the game… I have noticed subtleties that won’t always be important. Harness the excitement and ride that. Don’t let fear be the mind killer. 

If you go enough, you’ll become part of the scene and community: sex clubs and sex parties will become a lot more fun when you make friends who also regulars and connect with people on a level beyond a purely sexual level. Some of my friends and acquaintances have found employees, employers, business partners, climbing buddies, gym buddies, book clubs, and all manner of other, non-sexual connections through non-monogamy. For most of us, meeting tons of strangers is stressful, and trust doesn’t occur immediately upon meeting. It takes time to build, for good reason, since a lot of hours of face time and listening are necessary to evaluate other people (I mention later in the book that players have discovered most women, most of the time, need 4 – 10 hours with a man before sex. Sex clubs can shorten that time, but a lot of swapping happens after two hours of socializing and one hour of people f**king the partner they’ve brought, getting us close to the four hours many women want prior to sex). As you develop bonds with other people, the clubs and parties will become social and sexual events, and they’ll be more enjoyable because of those bonds. Like any scene, getting into it will take some time, but ongoing, repeated interactions are more satisfying than one-offs. People who think the sex clubs are purely about sex may be surprised to find that they’re as much about socializing, if you’re doing them correctly. 

They’re both subtle ideas but I think they clarify a bit of the cultural practices you’ll find, along with popular misconceptions. Lots of people may have been turned on and titillated by that Eyes Wide Shut orgy scene, but it has very little to do with how most real orgies happen. A guy could probably try to re-create that Eyes Wide Shut scene… but he’d probably be paying the girls.

In the real world, young and hot women dictate the dating world (contrary to what shrieking feminist harpies claim), and the whole sex club scene is built around the needs and desires of women. Women need more context and comfort for sex, and sex clubs make those things happen by balancing danger/excitement with comfort/rules.

A lot of businesses are starting to shut down or scale back due to COVID-19, giving me too much time to tinker on the book, which won’t be of use to people during the outbreak, since sex clubs will be among the first venues to shutter.

What to learn from famous guys, acting over the long term

I’m interested in what we can learn from famous guys, the actors and athletes and musicians, and how they structure their romantic lives, and you can see that interest in rambles like “When you’ve done it all, what then?” Those famous guys can get every kind of woman they want, and a lot of them spend a couple years laying out a lot of women. But… most of them wind up with long-term girlfriends and most of them even marry (then a lot of them divorce, like everyone else). Adam Sandler, to pick one example, could still be in the game as much as he wants… instead, “Movies shoot in summer, so he can bring his kids to set. During the year, the workday is arranged to allow him to drop them off at school and pick them up.” This is not a guy trying to max out his body count. Lots of other famous guys, guys who could have whoever, also don’t seem to be trying to max their body counts. What’s that mean?

I’m thinking about this because being in the game is many things, and one of those things is amplifying normal ups and downs. The highs can be very high but the lows very low. And I think about the highs because, as with drugs, loving the “high” too much can be dangerous, particularly for older guys. Building a peer group is important for almost every person, and guys into the game seem to also be alienated loners, often struggling with our own pasts, presents, and personalities.

There is something to the idea that “Age is just a state of mind.” To the idea, “You’re only as old as the woman you feel.” There is something to those things. But there is also something to the idea that, over time… doors do close. Lives change. People change. Peer groups change. Paul Janka hits this on the Torero podcast, and he says he got out of the game for a bunch of reasons, including that his friends were hanging up their pickup spurs and getting married.

I don’t really have a place I’m going with this. I’m thinking aloud. I also think that some people, guys and women, like the sex club thing as a couple because that allows the intimacy and partnership of a relationship with the novelty and ecstacy of the chase and new partners. The most successful couples in that world still put each other first. I bet a lot of the Hollywood guys, the musician guys, who get into long-term things have a little something on the side now and then, but they put their primary person first. The famous guys have problems with loneliness and meaning, like the rest of us. Maybe worse, in some ways, because someone always wants something from them (women know what straight guys are after, too). I know that if I stop hustling, very soon, no one but my real friends and my family want anything from me. Parts of the human conditions are real dark. We can try to understand it, but we cannot overcome it.

Think about girls, too. There is a lot of red pill talk about hypergamy and girls behaving badly. There’s some truth to that, too. There’s also some selection bias. I don’t want to repeat the whole thing but… “Guys who have successful relationships with functional women don’t seem very likely to end up writing for the Red Pill. Guys who get cheated on, dumped, etc. seem much more likely to end up reading the Red Pill, looking for answers, and venting on it.” “The women who react to street pickup are probably not a random sample of women, so drawing conclusions about all women can be dangerous.” Same with the women you meet online. I know some women, some of them very hot, who have never done online. I also know some women who did online for a very short period because they wanted a long-term relationship and when they found a guy who they like and who is reasonably within reasonable parameters, they stuck with him. Those are the kinds of women who are repelled by player vibes.

Game, at its best, allows human connections to flourish, “I will confess… the two ‘bottomed out’ periods of my life coincided with me backing off of game. I’m not certain the lack of game CAUSED those periods, I don’t think that was true… but game is an organizational force in my life, and I realize the utility there.” At its worst, it is guys trying to extract value, and extracting it from women who know what’s going on and are maybe attracted to that kind of thing. Trying to maintain that positive mindset can be one of the toughest things in game… and in life, in the face of adversity, rejection, etc. It’s something I struggle with. One way to contextualize struggle is to look at what others are doing and how they are dealing with the same conditions. Rich famous guys are different in many ways from normal guys, but not totally different, and we should think about what they choose to do.

All dogmas are to be avoided.

“Winners continue to win, and winning builds structural advantages”

That’s what a guy in finance was talking about on a podcast… I didn’t keep track of the original location, sorry, but the finance guy’s gist was something like, “In America, we have these narratives that we’re given from childhood. People are still religious, but we don’t really take our popular stories from holy texts anymore. We take them from Disney movies. The most common narrative when you’re a child in the United States is the little guy coming from behind. But when you get into investing, or any highly competitive arena, you realize that winners continue to win, and winning builds structural advantages. You’re disadvantaged if you’re small. This is not a romanticized story.”

The applicability to game is obvious… to come from behind takes a supernormal amount of work, and it takes someone who wants to buck trends, be different, and concentrate all of his resources on winning.

Most people can only win in one field. I have been talking to a guy in the game who also wants to improve his financial position (a good goal). But it is going to be very hard for him to do the game in depth and to dramatically change his financial life. The guys who he sees winning, financially speaking, have usually been laying the groundwork for victory for many years, and doing a lot of work to get to where they are. “Good, high-paying jobs” is a highly competitive arena where it is hard to come from behind, because other people have a variety of structural advantages built over years.

If you listen to rich, successful guys talk, a lot of them credit their wives for a lot of their success. Red Pill fanatics will reply to say those women are all cheating, they’re all waiting to divorce the successful man and take his money, they’re conniving, etc…. and while those things happen, I don’t think they’re the most common path for a successful, older rich guy. More commonly, a good woman will dramatically increase a man’s ability to succeed financially because she’ll believe in him, she’ll take care of the house, she’ll deal with the kid stuff. When he’s feeling down (everyone feels down sometimes), she’ll support him (there is a difference between sometimes feeling down and making your wife or girlfriend an emotional tampon). She increases a man’s ability to focus on other things, like his business and developing his skills. And of course for most guys, hunting for sex consumes lots of time, energy, and focus.

(Did you see the important word “good” in the paragraph… “a good woman…” a good woman enhances a man’s ability to achieve other goals, while a bad one is a burden.)

I am not suddenly pro-marriage, because marriage is a high-risk bet. If it blows up, the costs are sky-high. If it succeeds, however, the financial, time, and concentration benefits can also be very high. Some high-risk bets are good… this one seems net bad to me… and if a good woman enables a man to concentrate, talk to any divorced guy about what the divorce legal process does to his concentration.

Being good with chicks also has structural advantages. I know undersexed rich guys who can’t get laid, for all kinds of reasons… they are smart, but they have terrible bodies. They have oriented their minds towards technical fields, so that they can’t tease women, lead women, or connect with women. Women’s psychology baffles them and seems like a world of smoke, mirrors, vapor, and hidden trap doors (which it is… players just learn to navigate and get night-vision goggles). Guys who really learn the female mind can do very well at f**king chicks.

Obviously, a guy with a lot of money can use that to buy personal training, buy personality coaching, or buy chicks directly, but that last one has a bunch of downsides and the first two still take a lot of time and energy, and no guy who is 37 is going to get his 20s back. He may “make up” for them in some way, but time goes on direction. Rich guys may not have the structural advantages the captain of the wrestling team had… or whatever example you want to use. Almost all guys who nail a lot of hot chicks have some kind of structural advantage. Could be a job that introduces them to a lot of hot chicks. Could be good looks. Could be exceptional charisma. Could be sex clubs (or, as I think of them, an undervalued market opportunity that most guys don’t understand… investing in undervalued assets is how all those hedge fund guys got rich).

In popular narratives, the ugly duckling gets the girl in the end, who chooses him over the oafish jock. In reality, the oafish jock usually wins the pretty girl. “You’re disadvantaged if you’re small.” And in popular narratives, the ugly duckling often isn’t that ugly. We love to see the little guy come from behind. In reality, the solution is often literally to get big, by hitting the gym. Chicks respond to hot guys, more than they do to pudgy guys. Guys are more driven by pure body than chicks are, but chicks are too. A lot of guys absorb lessons from pop culture that are actively wrong.

Nailing hot chicks is a highly competitive arena with lots of subtleties, for most guys. There are naturals, yes. The guys who do it well (for a time, in most cases) often devote themselves fully to it. I have spent time (more time than I should have) explaining many of those subtleties in one area.

The three-date “rule” before sex

Players (and, more often, wannabes) talk about the three-date “rule” before sex… guys will say, “If you don’t have sex by the end of date three, drop her.” I think this rule is too strict, so instead of mindlessly following it, analyze the mindset and experience this “rule” comes from… guys who are used to being taken advantage of, and from guys who are probably taking girls on expensive, elaborate dates (like dinner). Those guys worry that the girl is just tooling them for money and attention. If you’ve presented yourself as a provider guy and are spending $50+ per date… the girl might show up just to get free meals… like a squirrel in the back yard will keep showing up to eat birdseed, instead of going through the arduous process of hunting acorns. Smart and functional girls know that nothing valuable is truly “free,” but they might like the attention and have nothing else going on, so they’re happy to absorb free meals and some male attention, even if it’s shitty low-quality attention. Guys have also heard stories about fast pulls of hot girls and then think every girl can/should be pulled and f**ked fast… my own stories like this one advance the “girls will f**k fast” narrative.

This is the wrong mindset… Krauser’s memoirs, for example, are full of stories about five or more dates before sex… some hot girls need time. Instead of chasing speed, apply a simple test to the girl and the dates…: 1. is progress being made? and 2. Do you enjoy spending time with the girl? (I may have subconsciously stolen these from someone else, and if so sorry… I am not claiming to be the first guy to talk about the subject at hand…). You could add 3., does she seem to be tooling you for value? Some girls are intensely pleasurable to be around, and some girls are a chore whose presence might be okay if that’s the road to sex but otherwise have little going for them.

Experience will help you feel out each situation. Mr. V wrote “+1. Was able to get past LMR this time! Prob worth a lay report to dive deeper/lessons.

Now, imagine a girl breaks up with you, then you fly 8 hours to see her, and the very next day she fucks some other dude…

Last night I was that other dude”

Good work Mr. V. Another guy predictably wrote, “Hats off to your patience, I would have given up after 3rd date.” Mr. V replied with the text I mentioned, about progress and pleasurable company . Mystery’s 7 hour rule is an average. Some girls can be had in less time, some girls need more time. “Progress” will mean different things with each girl, but I’d count something like kissing, making out, touching her body, her touching yours, feeling her responsiveness, etc., as progress. If she’s ice-cold on the first date and ice-cold on the third date, then it’s time to roll off and let her go.

If she’s running hot and then cooler and then hot again, maybe she’s deciding between guys, or has something else going on. Some girls will also be ready to f**k but then get their periods, or get colds, or have something else that gets in the way and interrupts momentum, but, if the guy is patient, it will happen. If the guy throws a fit because she’s not willing to f**k on his schedule, she’s learned something useful and negative about him.

Clearly each guy should do what he wants to do. But some hot and wonderful girls take longer than others… they have not been my main study, but they can be good. Patience can be good. I also don’t buy into the idea that the longer a guy has to wait, the better the girl is. Some quality girls are horny and want it now, some need to know the guy better and spend more time with him. How fast she goes is not a perfect indicator of how much she likes you. Some girls who are so-so about a guy in the beginning will warm up to him over time.

The quality of girl will also vary with how much energy you put into dating her. I might go for a lower-quality girl who is convenient and available… but I wouldn’t put a lot of effort into chasing her… this seems pretty obvious to me.

Mr. V may have a longer field report incoming… expect a link when it appears.

The game’s endgame and picking up a girl at a private party

Got an invite to a huge private sex party… remember how I wrote, “game can be thought of a little bit like chess in that for good players the first 5 – 10 moves are memorized calls and responses and gamed out… the interesting stuff happens midgame.”? This is an endgame story, making it less valuable than mid-game stories, but I wrote most of it for a private group, so I figured I’d tell the rest…

At the party, I talked to a gorgeous, short girl who used to be a high-end escort and probably had income that put her in the 99%… not a great conversationalist or was on drugs… some other things about her stood out but are too private to share… asked for kiss when she left, and she said “maybe later.” In normal dating asking for the kiss is a bad move, but in this environment it’s the way to go.

Did an MFM with a couple I know… read Yoylo for an MFM example story… I have also laid out a threesome bluepint… this one happened because I’ve known them both for years… she is a solid 7… he is probably a male 8… he finds it hard to find the right women, and they are put together well. He’s had some of mine before, so it’s all good… I have spoken many times about reciprocity and balanced equation, and our equations are well-balanced. There is not a “game” story here… or if there is, it is buried in the years… we are all casual friends who spent some time catching up, then had a theeway. Very intense one, too. Whatever “game” was involved happened long ago.

Much later, I was about to leave and crash, but I saw this girl and had to say hi to her… so I got to chatting with this chick and she had great vibes, nice but not astonishing face, and just the best body. 25 or so… we chatted for a while and she noticed my paddle… asked if I would spank her… of course, baby… we found our way to a more private back area, away from the crowds, and she was so cute (great, top level super feminine energy) and responsive. Some spanking/paddling, light choking/hair pulling… things moved fast and she was broadcasting horniness… so I kept going forward, checking in with her at appropriate places… and wow. I didn’t think I could rise to the occasion but did it (sometimes verbalizing “I’m not sure I can have sex again” helps me relax into it), and sex with her was amazing… amazingly fun. Time between “Hi” and f**king was… 20 minutes? 30 minutes? I don’t know. It was almost too fast, even for me… I think she’d been marinating in the environment and socializing for a long time and yet hadn’t been approached, or properly approached (later I found out that she knew a guy there, a friend of friend, who had been chasing her, but she wasn’t into him). Or, right girl, right time? I want to give her an 8 due to her body just being packed in all the right ways and feeling fantastic but probably a high 7. Everything about her felt and seemed right. Instant chemistry is rare. She seemed almost grateful to have me inside her, which is a turn-on. Hope she comes out… we talked about that, but she might be an “in the moment” girl who disappears later. I hope not.

Like I said, it happened almost too fast… I wanted more time to play with her body, to get to know her, but her sex temperature was so high that I felt I couldn’t not. We talked about some logistical things… “feminine energy” isn’t discussed as much as it should be. Hers was off the charts. She was like crack. Other girls should take lessons in feminine energy and sounds from her. F**king her was great. She reminded me of Short Dancer, and it has been years since I have felt that way.

Did not see the former sex worker 9 again.

I’m also a re/tard in some ways… my stated goals are different than what I pursued last night, so there’s that.

I wasn’t going to turn this into a blog post at first, cause I don’t think there’s anything new to learn from it… but then I realized that that is the lesson… I’ve been building ecosystem/connections for many years, and staying in pretty good shape, and it came together. Maybe I could point out that even s**ts often want to know the guy/guys they’re sleeping with… more often than not they do… the first woman came around not because I was a random but because I wasn’t. Overall I think I’ve contributed more value to the community than I’ve taken from it, and that was reflected in the private sex party. It was reflected in the invite itself. It was reflected in the people I knew there. It was reflected in the fact that I knew how to be once I was there, and knew where to flirt and where not to. Where to push forward and where to hang back. The interesting things happen in the midgame… but this was the end game… the value had already been built. The reputation was in place. The beautiful 8 hadn’t been approached, or properly approached, and she was ready, so I went for it… I was wandering through the orchard and spotted what might be a ripe fruit… I climbed up… checked it out… turned out to be ripe… and it was good. I had the skills she wanted, and she… well, she had what I wanted. The fruits of the network.

Tried not to drink too much and succeeded… exhausted the next day… I feel a little too old for this shit in some ways to be honest. I still feel kinda off track… my forebrain and hindbrain continue to disagree… am I turning into a chick or something? Hope not.

This FR is late game…. it’s about the building of value and discovery and connections over many years. Very few guys can just walk into something like this… you have to know the players involved. The mid-game for this kind of thing can be read in detail here… if your version of the book is more than six months old, get the latest one, because I’ve been updating it in response to other guys’s questions and observations… thanks to other guys who have sent me their learning and their field reports… they have made the book better/stronger than it would have been otherwise. FRs that deal only with the first couple interactions with a woman often aren’t interesting because they’re pretty well gamed out. FRs that cover end game, like this one, often aren’t interesting because there’s not a lot of value building or practice taking place… the value building took place in the past. I’d learned to be in the right place at the right time with the right attitudes and that was rewarded. This is a study about reaping wheat, not about growing it (much harder to grow than to reap, or to eat the food made from the wheat). I was surprised by the girl at the end and the speed with which it happened. But the conditions for that had been created over many years. I’ve had this happen before… but this girl was just f**kin hot, and she’s relatively to new to the scene/community. In some ways I got lucky, but you know how the harder you work, the luckier you seem to get? It’s like that.

Magnum has different FMF report too.

Guys building a big non-monogamy ecosystem

A player I know has discovered a coven of group sex and open relationship people near him. Some of the players are quite wealthy and have oriented their lives around this activity, buying yachts and getting hotel rooms and pimping out their living spaces to make it all happen (the yacht thing isn’t necessary, but I guess it’s a nice touch if you have the cash… I don’t, and I don’t really move in those circles… though I know they exist… so don’t get caught up in that side alley, whining about income). The player almost can’t believe this thing exists, but I can believe it because I have seen versions of it. Non-monogamy and sex clubs become an ecosystem. It’s possible to rack up incredible numbers through this, if it is a guy’s goal to do so.

Let me try to explain it, from my interactions… I have been at the periphery of this kind of thing, and sometimes the center, but have not been interested in going all the way, into making this the sole and entire focus of my non-work life. A lot of the guys at the top, doing penthouses and boats, are quite a bit older and as a result are not with the chicks who most interest me, but that is not universally true. These guys (and some women)….

* Go to clubs/events most weekends, or on vacations. There’s an international circuit of people doing this.

* Network with the people they meet. It’s not that much different than business networking except it’s more emotional and obviously instead of business relationships you are probing, establishing, and maintaining sex relationships. The social aspect of this is important and easy to do poorly. Outsiders think you just show up, bang/mate, then separate, like lizards or something. Not really, not if you’re doing it well, and outside of pornography sex has emotional or psychological components (most of the time).

* For guys who want younger/hotter chicks, the trick is finding them. They do show up… they are just uncommon and in demand, obviously. Guys can maintain decent sexual value into their 40s and even early 50s, if they want. For most women, SMV begins to drop seriously at 30, and almost all by 35. Supply-demand is real.

* When you have more girls than you can handle (it happens) and are friends with more couples than you can handle, you begin doing parties as the logical next step. Many activities have “levels,” with the advanced levels being occluded from novices and even intermediates. For parties, a guy might know six eight ten twelve interested people, sometimes more, invite them over and suddenly you are the host and you have the status that comes with being the organizer. Leaders have status… it’s polite to thank the host. The host need above-average emotional intelligence, which is lacked by most many guys.

* If you have the money and space to host great parties people will like you better. Chicks are super sensitive to environment and emotional cues, while most guys will happily f**k hot chicks in any available conditions. Dirty sheets, plates in the sink, whatever, guys will happily f**k a hot chick who will bend over there. Chicks are much more attuned to lighting, cleanliness, mood, etc. So if you can just buy the booze and weed, set up the mirrors / beds, get superior lighting (Philips Hue, don’t cheap out here if you can avoid it), etc., then people will be more likely to want to attend your things. So hosting can be the next step, for guys who are established in the community and have a female partner who is aligned with the guy.

* Really rich guys will buy boats, penthouse apts, penthouse hotel rooms, etc. It’s not necessary (you don’t need to be wealthy to do this), but these guys are out there.

You don’t need to be wealthy, but renting space, arranging things, etc., can cost money. So I don’t want to imply that it’s easy for poor guys to do this. Overall, most guys aren’t determined to maximize the amount of sex they have, and you can tell as much from their behavior. Most people can’t connect what they say with what they do… the successes in this world almost always can (or have lucky genetics).

The chicks who have these fantasies and desire these things will like guys who can activate their fantasies and execute them in a safe and controlled environment. Most chicks also need aftercare, etc. They want to bond, not just be sex toys who are going to be discarded after the event. Many guys wrongly neglect aftercare, cuddling, etc. Guys need to do a LOT of things right, here, if they are to get in and stay in. Listen to chicks and you will learn that many guys do basic things wrong. Aftercare is one example I’m thinking about right now. Read through Red Quest and you will come across many others.

Some other things about this big ecosystem…

* Chicks vary in their propensity to engage…. some are super scared, some are pretty eager. Find the eager ones and reassure the scared ones. Obviously a lot of chicks have group sex fantasies, are curious about how other people f**k, etc., but will not explore those without guys to guide them. Be that guy and find other guys who are non-judgmental and encouraging. Some girls can be converted over time.

* If you fully enter and connect to this world you might be astonished by the fact that it is larger than you know, though most people are smart enough not to advertise they’re into it, since the social judgment is too intense. Smart chicks know that their sexual reputation is linked to their ability to marry high-income men, so they don’t want to be known, in most cases, as a girl who does these things, because that will impact their ability to marry and have children, when they want those things. You’ll also find business connections in the places you might not expect to find them. Things that start about business often end up being about sex… and things that start about sex often end up being about other things, like business. People are made to network with others who share common interests. God can be a common interest in churches… sex can be a common interest… and people who form sex communities often trust each other and therefore want to do business together too.

* The people in this world are pretty discriminating, especially when it comes to guys. Many more guys want to get in it than chicks. Even guys who think they want to get in, typically can’t handle it. Getting into this world requires people in both sexes who can handle it. Lots of people (guys included) form quick emotional attachments to their sex partners and then want to monopolize those partners… even if they fantasize about this world, it doesn’t work. People who are doing events will monitor newcomers for negative and positive traits and guys (or chicks) who can’t handle it will not be invited into the higher tiers of things. Sufficiently badly behaved people will be booted, although this is rare. Sex clubs are much smaller world than conventional bars, and word about badly behaved people will get around fast, leading to doors that swing shut.

In life you are always being judged and always proving yourself.

Real question is…… eventually……. how do you want to live your life?

Most people who learn about this world discover they do not want to spend their lives immersed in it. Just like most guys seem to have about four to five good years in the game… but the people who do keep it up can have experiences few others do.

This no doubt sounds like a lot of work, but… a lot of work compared to what? I know people, even employed people, who spend 20+ hours per week on video games and Instagram, etc. Is this a worse hobby? Think about the things people you know do when they’re not working… is this better? Worse? Would you rather be f**king or leveling up your level 29 wizard? Would you rather be getting beers with “friends” from the office or f**king a hot chick?

These things are not very compatible with very young child family life, and a lot of people with kids are too tired to pursue them. As the kids get older it becomes more possible to pursue them but most people in western countries let themselves go, get fat, and get outcomes consistent with their weight, fatness, lifestyle, and sugar intake.

A lot of guys with high numbers also don’t have consistently high quality, so there’s that.

Some guys spend a lot of time building up their non-monogamy ecosystem and once the machine starts, it purs along. I’m trying to help guys get started and to understand the underlying principles at work. I think the book does that well.

Don’t ask for nudes. Don’t be pleased if you get them too soon.

Don’t ask for nudes. Don’t be pleased if you get them too soon. I’ve come to realize getting nudes is only a good sign if they arrive after I’ve f**ked her… then the nudes say, “There’s more of this coming your way and I want to entice you.” If she sends them beforehand I seem to be further away from f**king her (and I might never).

Why? I’m not 100% sure, but some chicks appear to substitute nudes for actual f**king. It’s worse if the guy asks…. or so girls tell me… asking for nudes seems to be a demonstration of lower value (DLV) and hot girls are bombarded with requests from low-value guys. I don’t have a strong theory about why this appears to be true, just observation. Some people now seem to prefer masturbatory stimulation to real live sex. Maybe I’m just old school but that’s not me. I’m also old-school enough to not have spent my adolescence and young adulthood watching hours of HD Internet porn every day. In my formative years, we had pics and some video, sure, but the bulk of sexual activity and stimulation had to occur live and in person.

Dexter speculates

My guess is if a woman she sends an explicit pic to you before f**king she thinks to herself

” shit…I sent this guy a nude so if we meet he’ll be expecting sex right off the bat ”

It takes away her plausible deniability.

That’s a fine theory… others may be constructed. Mr. V daygame said,

You forget that woman and men speak a different language. A guy wants pics of tits, a girl doesn’t want pics of dicks. That’s a clear example how men and woman are seduced differently

I only send them if the woman specifically asks for them (some do)… I don’t think a woman has ever asked for pics or videos before she’s had sex with me… after sex, she has a narrative and experiences to connect the visuals to. If she coyly asks I might say, “So you want me to send you nudes.” Again, I’m pretty sure this only ever happens after we’ve f**ked for a while. The story and experiences makes them valuable to her, in a way random guys aren’t. Without the story, they’re just another random guy’s body, and women can see male bodies, even very nice ones, any time they want.

Let me clarify… I am not against nudes at all and have shot thousands of them, almost all of them post sex, when the woman is very much in my frame and flooded with positive emotions and openness after being f**ked. A lot of women who are happy to pose right after being f**ked will later ask that they be deleted. A note for students of female psychology. Answers as to what this means can be posted in the comments.

A very nice camera is now as little as a couple hundred dollars… I remember the first reasonably priced DSLR, the Canon Rebel, that cost $999 or $1199 with lens, I believe. We live in a different world.

If she sends you nudes, try to get her on a date with good logistics as soon as possible. If you can’t get her on the date, she’s seeking attention and that’s it. I’m not in it for attention or for pictures… I’m in it for the physical pleasure and the psychological, spiritual, and physical connection… that’s where the good stuff is.

Guys who really want to get laid, focus on the things/behaviors/strategies that lead in that direction, and ignore other things. Asking for nudes is not a good step on the route to getting laid. I think a lot of guys reading and chatting online are not truly into getting laid.