“The stripper with the sugar daddy”

The stripper with the sugar daddy” is my version of the title… let’s be real here, she’s no computer scientist… she does have a typical alpha/beta boyfriend dynamic going on, though… “I’m leery of his avoidant attachment style but, like my weekend shifts at the club, the promise of pleasure lures me back again and again,” the usual, honey…

I’m also beginning to realize I’m torn between A and B. B is reliable, empathetic, open, everything I am not used to in men — but deep down I know I am not as into him as he is into me. I find myself drawn to the 10,000-piece puzzle that is A. Even though he is evasive and maddeningly frustrating, I realize that I am in love with him.

It’s like reading red pill fan fic… the boring guy is too boring for her, the exciting guy is exciting because he’s unreliably available. With A, there’s a little “accident,”

We go back to his place and fuck passionately for hours, in every position. I love making you come, he whispers, kissing the back of my neck. When he’s about to finish he asks, can I come in you, but I hear, can I come on you, and tell him of course. I am shocked when I feel myself getting filled with something. It’s been a long time since I let someone do that, for me it’s as intimate as it is risky.

B, however,

sends me a link to a playlist he’s made. I listen to it before work and realize it’s a love letter. I am flooded with conflicting emotions. He knows I dance and thinks its “fucking badass,” which is a rarity; he’s a feminist, a real one. We are compatible on so many levels but there is something missing for me.

She likes him but is an avoidant type herself… so B’s statements of attraction to her turn her off… while A’s distance turns her on. Different types women of women will be turned on by different things. This is not a chick who likes comfort or needs much of it. This is a chick who likes wild uncertainty. The more sexually open and fluid she is, the more likely she is to be turned on by game playing, hot-cold, push-pull, etc. Know your audience.

Finishing inside is a universal path to intimacy and connection, however.

 

 

Brief one about limited interactions at a sex party

Went to another closed sex party Saturday night, and as I began to write this I thought back on The Tom Torero lay report book, “Below the Belt”, “Should you read it? I dunno. If you want more lay reports, then sure. If you’ve already read a bunch of them, as I have, then I don’t know if it’s that useful. They do get repetitive, and that sense of repetition may be part of what’s making me thinking about the next part of my life.” Same thing here, cause a lot of the older sex club reports (the ones I didn’t write cause I wasn’t writing then) would look like this one… went to the party that some friends were hosting. Maybe 100 people there total? Enjoyed it overall and chatted with some people. Not a lot of really good looking girls there, but three or four 7+s were around. Had a couple with a hot girl offer a swap, so that was fun. Declined it, though. Precedent: don’t want to go there right now.

Sex parties, lots of people f**king together in the same space, it’s just very… stimulating. Stimulating in a way impossible to explain without experiencing it. The group dynamic makes everyone f**k better, improves focus, offers encouragement. There’s an undercurrent of feeling that we’re all getting one over on societal rules… that feeling players know… but it’s present here as well. Even if you don’t interact too much with other people, it can be a fun place. The stimulation is there even without f**king another woman. I’ve actually transacted a bit of business at these events, too, cause you never know who’s going to be at them. I’ve seen couples who go regularly but never go beyond touching or kissing other people. They get some of their jollies from the environment, without wanting to risk their primary relationship. Compared to the typical getting drunk and being bored and then being hung over the next day, this is a big improvement. Everyone wants to f**k anyway… better to skip the pretense.

There were a few too many fat chicks for my taste, and more shifty guys than I would have liked, if you know what I mean. Wasn’t enough to make me leave, but I noted it. There was also a small cute girl there who I’ve met before but who has the glassy-eyed, thousand-cock stare that I’m not a fan of. I’m sure some hater guys who have never been think all the chicks there are like that, but that’s not been my experience… most of them have a pretty well-integrated sexuality, a sexuality that their forebrain and hindbrains agree with, and that prevents the vacant look of women who use sex or their bodies for attention, as transactions, etc. This one… I can’t place her. Have not been inside her but have thought about having a go. Something seems a little off about her, and that plus wanting to establish good precedent holds me back. I also need to be congruent. If I am not congruent in what I think I should be doing and what I do, that is going to f**k me up.

Saturday morning I also went out for coffee with my date, and there was a couple sitting across from us. Struck up a bit of a conversation over something, can’t remember what… I found the girl unbelievably sexy, but I’m not sure why exactly… something about the way she moved, or her vibe. The pants she was wearing, somewhere between yoga pants and sweatpants, just made her ass look fantastic. The guy was more interesting than average too. They both looked like they’d just rolled out of bed. Probably won’t go anywhere, but the old ways and habits die hard. I dropped a strategic drug reference in, and that went over well. I get the vibe from them, probably because I really want to get the vibe.

It also appears that Torero has killed his whole online presence, so if you want the book, speak up and maybe it will find its way to you.

“Why 16? Who do age of consent laws really protect” A dangerous story, too

There’s a story in the second half of this one……. about me turning tail and running.

Why 16? Who do age of consent laws really protect. Rare to see these ideas questioned, because they serve two groups’s interests: older women voters and parents. Obviously older women parents really see their interests served, but older male parents don’t want to watch their daughters make typical retarded romantic decisions and get pregnant by charming older players. Charming teen players are bad enough. Throw in experienced seducers with teen girl morons and you risk greater pregnancy, heartbreak, etc.

Parents don’t give a shit about abstract arguments regarding right, wrong, consistency, etc. They just want their daughters to be less likely to get pregnant, get STIs, become dick drunk, etc. Don’t underestimate the power of the last one… if you are a player you have seen chicks go out of their minds with desire, at least temporarily, and a decent number of dads remember women who went crazy with love/lust. They want to avoid that condition in teen girls if at all possible. Don’t think your arguments about reason, autonomy, women being their own bosses, etc. are going to persuade the parents who have to deal with seduction’s aftermath. Adult women have a hard enough time, as we can see from the number of women bearing children out of wedlock.

Plus… women who are over the age of 18 and especially over the age of 25/30 can’t effectively compete with younger chicks. Getting the age of consent as close to 18 as possible, or even higher, gives older women a little bit more edge. Older women already have a tough go competing for top guys against younger women… letting women compete for top guys with 16 year olds is even worse, even more difficult. Women don’t want to date younger men, so that’s irrelevant. There are a handful of notable and irrelevant celebrity exceptions, that’s cool. let’s talk mainstream.

Women are already competing against the horniest women… they are (somewhat) competing against porn… women know their SMV declines post-children… to most chicks, most chicks who vote, the world looks super sexually competitive. The last thing chicks want is MORE competition for guys their age. So what’s a good excuse to evade competition… you must protect innocent girls! From EVIL predators. And most fathers agree with that.

It’s so surprising that an article like this appears at all. It’s interesting… I have (had, maybe, before life got in the way…) a lot of friends who were super interested in abstract ideas of all kinds, maybe including age of consent… none of them talk about this. No one wants to go there.

The story. A year or two ago I went to a small city in a coastal area on a work trip. First day there I went to the beach in the afternoon. Not much happening, warm enough to be pleasant but not warm enough to get into the water. Weekday, not many people there, nothing going on, enjoyed the sun. As I began walking back to the street, I saw these two girls… one of them in this black or red thong bikini that showed an amazing body, the other one was nothing special. But the one in the thong (black, I think), was just spectacular. Unbelievable. The other one was holding a basic Canon DSLR. Clearly they were going to do a photo shoot.

I felt like I had to open, so I did, something about tourists or locals. Locals. Then moved into pictures… took off my sunglasses to get that direct eye contact. Strong with both of them, especially the thong girl. I talked about Instagram and photography… and then I said, “Look, I have to get out of here in a few minutes, but do you want some company until then? I do some photography.” Something like that… many guys online don’t like these kinds of questions, viewing them as “beta,” supplicating, etc., but sometimes they are useful ways of sorting out when to stay and when to go. Especially when the girl is stationary, like on public transit or sitting in a coffee shop. The false time constraint is very useful here cause it gives you and the chick a way out if things go badly. It’s a good line in places where you don’t want to pointlessly impose but you also don’t want to let leads go. A lot of chicks, if they’re attracted to you, will be just as awkward around you as you are around them (they interpret your SMV as high and are flattered to have your attention), so it’s not easy to tell if they’re interested and awkward or uninterested and want you to go away. Their nervousness about screwing it up…. will screw it up. So “do you want company for a minute?” is a decent demarcating line. I’m sure it will be denounced as “BETA MALE” by some social retards. It can be done at the wrong time…. but sometimes you want to quicksort chicks to see where you stand. It’s bad to eject too soon because you run out of patter… but it’s also unpleasant to the girl and vibe-killing to you to try and stay in set too long for little reason or payoff.

I digress, they looked at each other and said yes… the thong one more excited than her plain friend… I went back down to the beach with them, leading the conversation, chit-chatting and getting pretty neutral responses, but I think they were just unfamiliar with the situation and either seeking attention (possible) or also developing attraction (possible). I think only the follower girl had braces… can’t remember now. I got down to the beach and was messing with the camera, then I thought……. do you really want to go down this path? How far down? Most often the question is, “What if she says no?” But the question can be, “What if she says YES?” Newbies need to have a logistics game plan for getting to yes… frequently they don’t. In this moment I wondered, do I want to go there? What is the worst case scenario here? The worst case scenario is really bad.

I was also thinking about the older women I know who admitted to starting sex precociously, often with much older men. When I was in middle/high school I knew some girls who were f**king MUCH older dudes. I found it shocking at the time… today, no female sex behavior surprises me, cause there’s a surface level of polite social discourse, then there’s a deeper, more primal level of real desire, the things people want but no one wants to admit to wanting. Some of the adult women I have slept with have admitted to and described scenarios about very early sex… one of the benefits of meeting a lot of women and vibing with a lot of women is that these stories come out. I have referenced MY SECRET GARDEN regularly because it is one of the very few honest descriptions of this world that I have found.

Back to that day, the best case scenario was good, but the worst case scenario was too bleak for me to pursue. So I kind of said, “Hey, I really have to go,” gave them back their camera, tucked the tail between the legs, and…… just about ran away. I knew too little and did not want to potentially explore the worst case scenarios.

But, you know, I wonder about that chick. What has her life been like? She was very, very pretty. Her bikini said, “available.” Some young chicks will deny that what they wear sends a message to guys around them… older women are better about admitting the obvious.

With this girl, the risk wasn’t worthwhile to find out the truth, or to find out if she’d already made sexual debut. I know the female propensity towards regret and irresponsibility. That’s why so few chicks are in high positions in companies or government… the average chick lives in a fantasy make-believe land where her feelings are “true” regardless of her speech or behavior. I don’t want to get caught in that bind, which I’ve seen before. Women are emotional creatures and whatever is true in the moment, always has been true and always will be true. What happened to her? Was the thong a one time thing, where she realized what signals she was sending out, and decided to change the signal? Or was it an honest signal, and she is one of those girls who is dangerous to the social order because of how hot and free she is? I’ll never know.

Social dancing, social skills, and the game

Some guys try partner dancing (salsa, swing, etc.) as a component of their game, and I’m one of them, but I’ve found the results to be mixed… whether you should do dance classes depends a lot on you. If you’ve got lots of tasty chicks queued up and a good pipeline, there’s little reason to start dancing unless you’re a guy who really likes it, or unless you’re in a small town without good day game opportunities. The highest-value guys and chicks rarely or never show up at these venues… which tells you something important.

The reasons for dancing are many and we’re the dancing species, so dancing is in line with our evolved propensities… it’s hard to fight evolved propensities. Guys with good game are almost always aligned with what chicks find attractive, and guys who can’t align themselves with what chicks find attractive will struggle. I didn’t make the rules bro, evolution did. The reverse is also true… just talk to a girl who is fat or old and see how much fun dating is for her… she is not aligned with what guys are primed to desire.

I get the impression a lot of guys starting in pickup, the game, and the Red Pill have bad social skills and are starting from bad places, with no queue of chicks, no pipeline, and a lifetime of videogame, sugar, and porn habits to fight against… guys who don’t have the social skills to apply cold-approach pickup and, even if they try, find the process so daunting as to be almost impossible. For them, social dancing (and improv) are good ways to start making forward progress… every day you can make progress or regress… you only see the tip of the spear. Social dancing and improv are structured ways of meeting new people and building concrete skills without the thumbs-up / thumbs-down aspect of proposing dates and sex to new chicks. When I was younger I was sometimes nervous about sexual rejection, but now I realize that when a girl gives me a firm “no,” or when I take anything apart from “yes” as “no,” that is an advantage to me because I can quit feeding her attention better targeted elsewhere. Guys without a chick pipeline and without masculine identity and presence often find “no” to be devastating, a blow to their whole identity.

After college I lost some of the environmental and ecosystem practices that had led me to good solid lays, and this seems true of a lot of guys. I thought I was a player… turned out I was just in a good environment and a little bit less of a p***y than most guys, and that was sufficient to get a bunch of lays. Oh, if I knew then what I know now……….

So I tried some social dancing. It was fine. It led to a few lays, but a lot of hours spent. It was also more fun than a lot of what my friends considered fun (video games). This girl was an ultra-long lead from that period. Good-looking 8. She had become more attractive over time, evolving from a stick-thin girl to one with the right curves. Not all girls peak at 18 – 22. And she is pretty monogamous overall…  I encouraged her to have some fun when she was out of town and her boyfriend was otherwise disposed… no go. A guy asked me about where monogamous-leaning chicks are, and I don’t really know (churches?), but they do pop up in my life now and then.

Game advice is tough because game is contingent on who a guy is, where a guy lives, and what his starting conditions are like. Guys with bad starting conditions will often find advice suitable for better-positioned guys to be unrealistic or even outright unbelievable. Guys with good starting conditions will find some advice for beginners to be unfocused, ineffective, or just plain unnecessary. Where you are affects how you receive the message and the message’s relevance to you. This post targets guys at an introductory level.

If you’re a guy looking at some empty nights and you’re not a hard-core cold approach guy, learning social dancing is probably better than not. Social dancing is a very “safe” activity that sublimates its sexuality and gives guys a structure and a skill to practice… this is also what makes it less fluid than daygame or even nightgame. Regulars at a social dancing event will get reputations, so it’s not a good place to ask out a bunch of chicks the first night you attend. Game at dances is indirect. Most nights, social dancing will be kind of boring, and when I was doing it I didn’t even see many 7s available. Some, not many. But it’s better than a night playing video games or watching porn, and even rudimentary dancing skills can be useful at weddings, nights out with friends, etc. Dancing can be a useful warmup for strolling the streets at night and chatting up chicks who are between bars (“gutter game”).

People who get really into dancing go to other cities to attend exchanges (and ideally DNA) with people in the host cities.

So I personally haven’t seen much in the way of hot chicks and lays from social dancing… but I’m also glad I did it… doing it will put you in a more social and sexual frame of mind and spirit than many other activities. For a long time I haven’t had many involuntarily empty nights and for me social dancing hasn’t been a great source of direct lays, so I don’t do it anymore. Chicks are impressed with my “dancing skills,” which come from like the two years I was taking lessons. Some dancing events will also have a nerdy, loser guy wandering around with an expensive camera shooting pictures, and if you can snag some of those pics, they’re better than average for online dating profiles.

Just getting out and interacting with other people is far superior to being on the Internet, playing video games, etc. Depending on where you are with gym, fitness, and diet, dancing can be superior or inferior; that’s going to vary too much by the individual to generalize. Dance scenes are also somewhat close-knit, so it’s easy to soil a reputation there. Guys who don’t have basic masculinity and social calibration are going to struggle there, but those guys are probably going to struggle anywhere. Dance classes don’t seem like an optimal use of time for guys who want to rack up lays and have the skills to do so. They seem like they can be pretty useful for guys who aren’t quite there yet.

Rakish Love said, “Although the dance (or whatever) scene isn’t the best for pickup since you might have a low-sexual-market value in the eyes of veteran girls there, it adds to your SMV to regular girls on the street, which makes it a good value delivery mechanism.” He’s right but, with consistent and deliberate practice, dance SMV can become fine with a few months of practice. It’s going to suck at the very beginning (beginner’s hell) but everything sucks at the very beginning of the effort, including game, dance, learning an instrument, etc. Being really optimized for picking up chicks at the venue itself may take a long time, and I didn’t properly emphasize that.

I don’t now if there are social skills coaches or therapists but if there aren’t there should be, particularly in this new age of phone-based social retardation. Seriously, ask to see the Apple screen time app for chicks under age 25. Many of them will check their numbers then be too ashamed to show you. They should be ashamed because they are spending their whole lives looking at other people’s Instagram. Guys who need to build their social skills need to get out into the real world and interact with real people. Improv, social dancing, volunteering, etc., are good ways to do this that are pretty low pressure, but coaching and therapy would be good too. If you’re a guy with strong social and game skills already then your sticking points are elsewhere. This seems to the minority of guys and especially the minority of guys starting out.

Halloween party and being part of the larger group

Last-minute Halloween party that wasn’t exactly for sex but had many of the characters from the scene/circuit at it. Went at the last minute when some family things fell through, Halloween not being a very family holiday. It was the sort of party that ten years ago would have thrilled me… now I’m fine doing it (this is not a whine), but I feel more take it or leave it.

Took a bit of love substance with some real friends, and the substance kept me awake later than was desirable, but it also had some of its intended effects. I see why these things are being tested in clinical settings, because I think they can have powerful reset properties. But my state was pretty low: lots of sex overall this week, including the day of the party, and whenever that happens… I’m just a lot less social. Less focused on meeting people and seducing women. Like a lot of guys, I have a “hunting” mode that makes me bolder, funnier, deeper, bouncier. More persistent though BS. And that mode was set to “off” from sufficient f**king. Guys in the game know that it all goes better when the mood is right… this isn’t an excuse for failing to do the work when the work needs to be done and the mood isn’t there, but it is a statement about how the game happens, which is another way of saying how people meet and get together from there. The best game doesn’t look like game, etc.

Did meet some chicks and catch up with some old friends, some of them friends of convenience and situation. When younger, I felt a burning desire to f**k pretty much every acceptable girl. Don’t get me wrong, I still wouldn’t mind that… but priorities have shifted, or are shifting. And I understand why guys around my age coming off of years, or worse decades, of unhappy monogamy, sexless “marriages,” etc. would want to f**k pretty much every acceptable girl, to feel fully alive. But… I also understand why years of short-term liaisons can begin to wear on the psyche… it can become a bit monotonous in its own way… the world changes, people are born, people pass, and I’m still asking “Tell me about a fantasy you’ve never shared before” and “I’m not sure you’re the kind of girl who hears the call to adventure. You might be a little boring, right?” I do less cube (have not properly memorized it) and that sort of stuff but have my own common tells/patterns.

There is a gap between “outcome independence” (a concept discussed by many players) and “not giving a shit,” and I feel like I have gone from striving for the first to stumbling into the second… and that shows in my (sporadic, rare) approaches. It’s good to keep up the skills… today, it’s the nature of relationships that a guy never knows when he’ll be on the market again. Women are capricious. The ocean’s tide can be predicted, as can the motion of the planets, but not the mind of a woman. If a guy lets go, he can get dragged into the relationship underclass real fast… just look at your friends with terrible diet and exercise habits… they get what they give. If their primary partner leaves, they’re f**ked, and not in the good way. Being alive today means always being alive to what will happen if she walks tomorrow. It means… it’s not a bad idea to have a couple loose affiliations with women you might text if your main thing goes away.

At the party, I ran into a girl I was f**king for a while a few years ago. She seemed super young then and still seems young, although she’s got to be reaching into the second half of her 20s. Totally empty headed, but in a slightly unusual way. She is too… pliant? Like, she will basically wander into bed with anyone who asks, even when she shouldn’t. I tried to get her to understand value and reciprocity, without her really getting it. She would basically f**k whoever asked… which led to problems at work and among friends… she was the kind of girl who could just be escalated pretty casually into bed (or the bathroom at a bar). A girl who is not good at doing any value protection can be fine in the moment but moving past the most casual of casual f**king often doesn’t work.

She has a pretty face and nice demeanor, but her body is basically skinny fat. She looks like she could be a tight high 8 (though not much in the boob department), then seems more like a low 7 nude. High 6, maybe. For a guy who loves a pretty face over a hot body, she might be a bit higher… I’m the opposite. No interesting story about her, cause I met her at one of the first events she attended, so my job was to look good, chitchat, then escalate, then follow up. Being in this world can blunt a player’s overall game development, because, if the guy can bring in enough new girls, etc., it becomes playing on easy mode. No one gets to the later levels of a thing without trying to reach the edge of his abilities, and if you can get solid 7s on easy mode, how badly do you want to keep chasing? If you become a game obsessive you might still go… to stroke the ego, to reach the highest echelons, etc…. for myself, if I’m sated, my focus tends to move to other things. And at the clubs, a lot of filtering has been done… same with the private events… a girl enters this ecosystem seeking something… something that I have been happy to provide.

This girl was an easy come, easy go girl… we had a thing for a couple months, but she never really “got” me, while I got her quite well. There is no way to put this nicely, but there was a serious IQ and personality mismatch between us. I have dated women smarter than me… which is a fantastic experience, because I can learn a lot from them, and they offer much greater intellectual stimulation and it’s possible to talk to them about work problems, ideas, etc., and get useful feedback, which most girls can’t offer. This one, though… was always more than a couple steps behind me… something I’m okay with, but that kind of mismatch can grate over time… she seemed not to understand that I need to work, to prioritize my job and other issues, and I don’t really know where her income came from. She didn’t seem to be selling sex, and I paid close attention to that, cause pretty girls with no visible means of real support… they have a means of support between their legs… you can usually tell if you’re paying attention. Her family didn’t seem especially wealthy. She did live with too many other people, so maybe her costs were just low, and she lived to party. I haven’t thought about her since I last saw her at a party. Some girls stick in the mind, some slip right out. The circuit can be game on easy mode.

There were fun aspects of the evening, and the love drug has the unfortunate property of making 6s more attractive. If I had been alone… I don’t know… I think it’s good that I wasn’t. So it was fun, but a lot of the things I considered fun now feel kind of melancholy, and the things I’d considered boring, or part of the interstate on the way to fun, I’m more okay with. I’m less interested in bamboozling and more interested in deep talk, often unmediated by altering substances. Unlike some guys, I’ve never had a problem with them. Some people, without intoxicating substances or the intoxicating lure of sex… there is not much else there, when you try to see what their mind is made of. For a lot of women, it’s hard to get to internal substance without the connection of sex first, or without substances to lower inhibition. Then it’s possible to see what’s there, past the layers of social defenses… arguably the game is about strategies to intelligently negate those defenses and allow people to really see what’s inside. I’ve been just fine with bamboozling, with the game, with chasing the f**king, for a long time. Now I am… less fine.

But I am glad that I’m making charts of this world, which has been almost entirely invisible to players, from what I have seen (if I am wrong please point out the predecessors). It seems that I have learned things and realized things that hitherto no one who thinks about the game has realized, or has spoken about. There is a pleasure in making the unknown visible to others. Game is the realization that there is a process and set of practices that can be followed in order to improve success with women. It isn’t completely random; it isn’t a matter of “women are weirdos;” it is a matter of recognizing systematic preferences and then acting on those preferences. Taking what had seemed mysterious and making it a system, like early entrepreneurs realized that a lot of formerly artisanal products could be made cheaply in factories powered by coal. The artisans were angry at seeing their market evaporate but the market spoke. Women hate the idea of the seduction process being illuminated, yet women love hot cool seductive guys and complain about the opposite (fat lame nervous guys). I’m extending another probe down a previously missed, unmapped branch of the game.

None of this is an argument about how other guys should live or game. It’s a description of what’s in my mind lately. When game or sex club experiences are in my mind and life, I report those. Otherwise… more like this. You start with game… you end up with psychology and the entire human world, if you scroll down far enough.

Not much of a field report to report.

What do I mean by “levels” of game/seduction discussion?

Guys have been asking what I mean when I talk about the “level” a given piece of advice operates at. There are at least two ladders of levels, maybe more. There’s the discussion/pattern ladder, and the game level.

There are GAME levels, and we’ll talk about them first… the first bunch of levels are where the man does almost all of the work, typically. Not always, but usually. Almost always if the woman is attractive. Initially, the man takes the brunt of the rejection. Sex is a fulcrum point. After it, more of the power and rejection ability shifts to the man. Men want to know, “Why won’t she put out? When will she put out?” Women want to know, “Why won’t he commit? Why doesn’t he call me after sex? Why doesn’t he acknowledge my love?” The seduction discussion among men is almost always about getting to sex and its immediate aftermath. The seduction discussion among women is almost always about a man who is high enough status and attractive enough being willing to commit to a woman.

Women are not stupid (a common refrain around here), and they know that they can have sex pretty quickly and easily if they want it. Many guys, however, don’t understand women and don’t understand that the female discussion is almost always past the “good sex” stage. There are articles about how to bait men into making the first move, especially guys who are +2 in SMV, but the bulk of the discussion happens at the later levels… “Mismatched sexual market value (SMV): Diagnosis and cures” has greater detail, and so much advice, from and to both men and women, is garbage because it doesn’t talk about SMV level. Are you accurately assessing your own SMV? The SMV of the person you’re interested in? What that disparity or lack of disparity implies? So much of the discussion doesn’t address raising SMV, which is one big advantage of the red pill discussion, which begins with lifting, fashion, and diet. It’s about raising SMV.

Too much leadup. Some possible levels in the game:

  • Non-verbal indicator of interest (IOI).
  • Approach.
  • Initial rapport/seduction/whatever.
  • Exchange of numbers and contact information.
  • Date / seduction.
  • Kissing/stroking.
  • Bounceback, logistical challenges.
  • Clothes come off.
  • Sex. This is a fulcrum point, and it’s often where the female discussion starts: women want to know how, once a man has high enough status to lay them, to please the man and keep him interested and around.
  • Comfort/aftercare/bonding, especially if the woman has had deep sexual experiences and she doesn’t want to feel cheap/used/etc. Many men fail here. Once they’ve fucked they feel their “job” is done, which is a good way to needlessly hurt a woman. This is where a lot of women don’t want to go home and a lot of men want women to go home. Not universal, obviously.
  • Repeat sex/dates.
  • Where is this going?” conversation. Defining the relationship. That kind of thing. Red Pill guys often stop here, though many don’t even get here.
  • Committed relationships.
  • Cohabitation.
  • Marriage (I think this is a bad deal for men in most Western societies but it’s here for the sake of completeness).
  • Children/family/family structure.

Later on, there is group consciousness, pattern recognition, etc. There is understanding of a woman’s needs, psychologies, etc. And not all women are the same. A woman who really wants to be monogamous and have a family (some of these do exist) will be different from the wanton sex positive sluts I have found myself specializing in. A lot of guys can’t get to this stage with any regularity. High-status, high-value guys are much more likely to get here, and low-status guys should work on fixing and raising their status.

These stages can occur over long periods or short periods of time. It’s possible to have a great sexual experience in a bar bathroom half an hour after meeting a chick. It’s also possible to know a chick for months or years before you plunder her.

Discussion/pattern level.

  • The “bottom level” among guys is things like “happy wife, happy life.” Or, “What do women want?” Or, “I don’t understand why she did this thing.” Or, “She says she wants a nice guy but only dates assholes.” Or, putting women on a pedestal. It’s a foggy mixture of confusion, hostility, admiration, and uncertainty. Game strives to demystify this process.
  • The Reddit red pill discussion is a step above that, thankfully. It’s about the need for men to improve: diet, lifting, socializing, etc. It’s about the need to eliminate negative influences like video games, porn, TV, etc. It’s about learning to approach and accept that women like sex and have sexual criteria. Unfortunately it often stops around here.
  • The evolutionary biology discussion is a step above that, or at a similar step. It’s about learning long-term patterns of attraction, behavior, and incentives for men and women. It’s about field reports and testing the theory in real life.
  • A step above that is applying patterns to individual cultures and situations.
  • A step above that is seeing women as members of a group but also evaluating them as individuals. We are both at once. Not all women are alike, though one can see patterns.

Other thoughts

There is also monogamy/non-monogamy, which for me usually slots between “repeat sex” and “Where is this going?” You can put sex clubs in that zone as well, although sometimes it will appear earlier, in dates/seduction. If a woman says she is not looking for anything serious, thinks monogamy is silly, likes experimenting with drugs, like music festivals, etc., then she’s likely a party girl and an especially good candidate for sexual exploration. A woman who is looking for something serious, wants to have a family, is close with her family, etc., is not as good a candidate. Experienced guys also

Consciousness of the other person’s world(s) might be another, and one I have been talking about lately, maybe because I find myself thinking about ways out of the game… I am not going to be able to get top girls forever and I don’t think I want the rest of my life to be about chasing tail.

Some men also don’t like spending time with women (Krauser seems to be like this) and that impedes relationship/emotion formation. I’m not saying that men automatically have to want relationships or emotional connection but I am noting it.

Other levels could be devised. I don’t claim this to be exhaustive. Some levels could be collapsed and others expanded. “Theory” and “practice” for example are common divisions and those are fine too. You’ll sometimes run into keyboard jockeys who are repeating red pill ideas they found somewhere else, rather than telling stories from their own lives… I push many guys towards writing blogs because I want to read their stories and a large body of writing is often a good way to do a first pass as to whether they’re likely full of shit or not.

Another point around levels is 1. underlying value, 2. game/conveying value and 3. environment. Many guys attracted to red pill and seduction have low value and must raise their value (thus that conversation is happening). Without higher underlying value they will most often image match. A male 5 will find a female 3 – 5. Many guys can raise their value a lot through the standard red pill advice… if it is executed properly. Just like a lot of women can raise their value when they quit sugar, be less bitchy, etc.

A guy with pretty low value who tries to learn “game” is likely to be disappointed… and he is going to have a lot of corrosive interactions with women. Then he is going to sign up at the usual sites and complain about how mean women are, not realizing that he’s seeing his own value reflected back at him. If he is a 5 chasing 7s he is going to have a rough time. If he is a 5 who can raise his value to a 7 the game is still challenging but he will be much more in the game and much less likely to take to Internet fora to write about how women are super duper bad.

Neither men nor women are bad, on average…. there are bad individuals in each group…. if you think half the planet is universally bad… that tells us about you, not about women, or men.

Male value is more malleable than female value and men are more inclined to date up AND down in age range. The “bitter older woman asking where the good men are” genre occurs almost exclusively after age 30 and most often after age 35, when top guys in that age range are dating women in their 20s, or have already married and have families. If you read stories by women about how bad men are, you are almost always reading stories about how a woman is disappointed that a man who is +2 SMV compared to her doesn’t want to be monogamous with her.

This genre about the “good men” deficit exists because women are surprised that their SMV goes down and the guys they could get easily at age 25 are now passing on them or choosing easy sex without commitment. Delusional women think that they primarily desire social status / wealth / confidence / education etc. in men, so they will cultivate those virtues in themselves, only to find men are not totally indifferent to those things, but are not primarily moved by them. I mean, I’d love to have women in my life who make more money than me and are also hot and also want to lavish me with sexual attention, etc., but that is not a typical outcome. Most people see their incomes rise throughout their early lives and incomes tend to peak around age 50, and in the 45 – 60 range. I don’t believe I’ve ever had sex with a woman that old and my interest in it is nonexistent, though maybe one day I will (I won’t be able to get anyone else!) and, for most women, by the time they generate the highest incomes, they are not in my target priority pool. I understand why guys who are uncertain of their value and who don’t bring much are worried about higher-earning women but to be honest if you’re working on value in other fields you should be all right. Half of doctors and a lot of other people in the medical professions are now women and not all of them are unattractive.

“More malleable” status still requires putting in the work, which most guys can’t or won’t. Many guys are also building from shitty foundations, so the foundations must be torn up and rebuilt, and that’s hard. In some ways I have been building value since I was a child… and reaping it throughout my adult life. Many guys also don’t see the higher levels of game, which can get a bit “hippie” like when it comes to raising consciousness, helping others build their value, etc.

For example, there is the endless Internet talk of the “nice” guy. Women like men who are kind… but not men who are weak supplicants hoping to f**k based on being “nice.” Women do like hot, high-status guys who are also kind, not based on trying to get sex, but based on genuine non-reciprocity and conscious decision-making… from a position of strength. I am not a nice guy… I have slept with women who now hate me… I have fired people who needed the job but were bad at it… I have broken rules… I have slept with married women… but I have also been kind, at times. I have given value without getting anything in return. I have helped people, including strangers. I have gone the extra distance. I have played with small children in front of attractive women (I have a fun and favorite story about this subject). By the time I was 20 or 21, however, I had figured out that being “nice” to women is a turn off and demonstration of lower value (DLV) that moves me away from f**king her, not towards f**king her, so I quit doing that.

Do women like nice guys? It depends. Definitely not niceguys, one word. But do they like a guy who they see as having high SMV, who is maybe a little mysterious in some ways, doing something nice for someone else, without any expectation of things in return? Probably. But they also like funny guys… most humor has an edge… if you don’t have an edge, you won’t be that funny. I have made mean comments… told mean jokes… I will again too.

I am getting off topic, but I am overall in favor of Rollo, Reddit’s Red Pill and seduction, etc., even when some guys aren’t, because they the average or low level guy above his most basic level. They clear away a lot of bullshit mystification and set guys up to reach the higher end of their abilities. So that is a net win in my view, even if they tend to cluster at the lower level of the ladders, and I want mostly to talk about the middle and upper end of the ladders… there is a lot of good material on developing underlying game and value in Krauser, in the book Mate, in other places, so I don’t have anything unique to add there. Plus, game can be thought of a little bit like chess in that for good players the first 5 – 10 moves are memorized calls and responses and gamed out… the interesting stuff happens midgame.

But… to go back to the open forums and some blogs… some of these places focus too much on resentment, and how women are bad (they’re not, in most cases, unless men let them be bad…. women are mostly self-interested), how feminism is bad (modern feminism is bad, I agree, and I’m glad someone wants to fight that fight, but I don’t), etc. These places rarely have any talk about how to get guys from the medium level into the higher levels. I doubt most guys who get to the higher levels spend time in these places. The places with voting, tend to have strong crab-bucket mentality, in which low-level guys downvote anything that they can’t perceive, because it’s too high level for them to understand or get. Many of them are in the “anger” phase when they realize they’ve been lied to for much of their lives and that they would have been better off lifting heavy weights in high school than “being themselves,” soulfully waiting for some flighty teen girl to notice them, but she didn’t, cause she was off f**king a wrestler.

Without knowing where a guy is… it’s hard to address his needs, beliefs, etc. I have spent time at the lower parts of this ladder, with lots of limiting beliefs, etc., that meant I didn’t perform where I should have performed. That said I have not had some of the physical, intellectual, and social problems that some guys describe. I have not married the wrong woman and then suffered divorce-rape. I have not had some of the extremely bitter and caustic experiences some guys have, which damages their psychologies. I have had plenty of negative experiences with women, but none of the truly awful ones. Some of that has been luck and I don’t deny luck’s role. I have had a lot of luck! Given my love of raw dogging… a lot, lot of luck. Some of it though has been a decent amount of work building and protecting value. I also had a pretty early sense of reciprocity and value exchange… so if a woman was trying to take value without offering any in return, I was (somewhat) good at protecting myself from that. Not perfectly because in my teens and early 20s I was scared of top girls lavished a lot of attraction-killing retention, followed them around like a puppy, listened to their stories about the guys they really liked or were fucking, etc. I needed eye-contact work and escalation work. But I was never as low as some guys are/were, and I had some things going for me.

The bottom-level discussion online has clarified things for me, taught me things, made vague ideas concrete. I don’t scorn that level of discussion. Many guys need it. The absence of top-level discussion is revealing… it tells us about the state of the masses. That’s why I began writing the blog… I realized that in other venues, almost no guys faced the “where is this going?” conversation, and wouldn’t understand the dilemmas faced by guys who get it regularly. I realized that the high-level discussion of sex clubs for players would have no role. Most often the response would be “cuck lol.” For a guy who struggles to get and maintain one woman… who is worried about losing her… who is unsure about his own status… this response makes a lot of sense. I get where he’s coming from. He’s playing a risky game with rewards he can’t perceive. For a guy who struggles with liking women and wanting to maintain them while also achieving sexual novelty… this strategy can make sense. Where a guy is will condition his response.

There’s also nothing wrong with being a beginner… almost all of us start there… but most guys never seem to get past the most beginner of beginning stage.

It’s perfectly normal of course for a guy to be high level and not like what I’m doing. But a guy who is at the lower levels… he can probably barely understand what I’m doing, or the problems I’m familiar with facing.

In real life I meet plenty of guys who never get past the lowest levels. They’ve had one or a very few girlfriends they got by luck and circumstance. They don’t understand women. Maybe they got married and now their marriage is stale and they don’t understand why. Their wife or girlfriend isn’t intersted in sex with them. They stay together “for the sake of the kids” without understanding what is wrong. They “got lucky” with her. They say, “She’s the boss” (words that have never passed my lips and never will). They tolerate bad behavior because they think they have to. Plenty of guys never get past these levels… and they can still get a woman of some kind, have kids eventually, pass on their genes, etc., but the sense of mystery and frustration never ends. It troubles them when they are watching sports or playing video games… then their team does the thing, or their video game makes a fake fitness demand on them, and the trouble vanishes, cause the team just did the thing or the video game requires a move.

The red pill and seduction communities exist to boost these guys. Plenty of them will accept the boost… but not that many will go all the way… I am interested in the ones who want to go all the way, who want to play the game but also understand the game, who want to seduce women but also improve the women who are open to being improved and worth of being improved, the ones who want to master the game so they can move past the game.

I don’t submit myself as one who has surpassed the game or one who is at the highest levels… I can see the higher levels, I believe. Chances are I can never reach most guys cause most guys are at the lower levels or if they aren’t they will never find this. I can keep trying to do a little better, though.

Yoylo’s first sex club experience [FR]

If you follow me on Twitter you may have seen Yoylo… this is his first field report on the blog, and follow his adventures on Twitter too. I like this story because it illustrates the dangers of not being on the same team with your date, and I worry that I have given too positive a vision of the non-monogamy world.

A bit of a background: I got married at 23, and she was 23 as well. Our daughter was born at 26 and by 30 we all moved from Russia to Sydney. But my then-wife and I separated mid 2018 and divorce papers are in court now. Joint application. The hearing is scheduled for early 2020.

A few months after our separation she found a guy, late 40s or early 50s, who she fucks semi-regularly till now. She tried a few other guys but no one stuck except that one. Apparently he’s a good fuck, knows what he’s doing, but they have no other relations but sex at her place once per week or less (this guy comes as he pleases).

I banged a few girls and had a mini-relationship with one city chick in the Philippines, where I go periodically to check on my property; I bought an investment condo a while ago, so I’m there a few times per year. I went in April as well and spent a weekend with this “girlfriend.”

My ex and I remained friends after separation and talked openly about her sex with this guy and my stuff with various women too. We met regularly for a coffee or a drink and to spend time with our daughter together. And we fucked a few times; the first time you fuck a woman is almost always the most challenging, as subsequent sex doesn’t increment her internal notch counter. This is part of the Matthew Effect: the more women a guy fucks, the more likely he’s going to have one rebound on his cock.

Continue reading “Yoylo’s first sex club experience [FR]”