Paying for women (no, not that way: on dates)

Xbtusd tackles a perennial topic, coming at it from a different angle: should the guy pay on dates?

I have a distinct memory from high school, of a girl I was interested in, explaining how attractive women procure alcohol: she said they flirt with older guys who have fake IDs, giving the older guys the impression a hookup might be available, and then leverage that relationship to get alcohol.  I was furious when I learned this, but eventually asked the girls to ask the guys to buy me alcohol without telling the dudes it was for another dude.  Today we would call those dudes “simps,” but back then pretty much everyone was a simp.  Dudes with cars would DD (“designated driver”) for carloads of women ferrying them around from party to party and back to their houses all over town.  Often, these dudes didn’t even think they could hook up with the girls, they just wanted to be needed by attractive women for something.  To feel validated as a human and potential sexual option.  To feel seen.

That experience left a strong emotional mark on me at a formative age, and I vowed I’d never be like those pathetic losers.  In many ways that early experience served me, since they taught me to always avoid situations where you are giving away value and getting nothing.  In other ways I’ve hewed too strongly to this principle, for fear of the humiliation I associate with finding out I’ve been manipulated and turned into a simp.  

In college, I was at a school where fraternities dominated the social scene.  I joined one of the most prominent frats and had the time of my life running the school’s social life.  Frats were an interesting social element because we simped for women, but always made sure it was transactional.  We spent tons of money throwing amazing parties, providing free alcohol to women, and, in exchange, the pussy flowed freely.  Most guys wish they had the opportunity to “pay,” however indirectly, for pussy in the way we did.  And yet, there were still nuances to the game.  A rival fraternity that some friends were in, took the simping way too far.  They shamelessly catered to women, playing whatever “gay” song of the day was on the top of all the freshman girls’ iPods at dance parties, and preparing non-beer drinks (unheard of) to get all the young girls who didn’t drink beer yet, drunk.  The more they swallowed their pride and gave the women what they wanted, the more their penises were swallowed by the youngest and hottest girls.  And yet, no girl who was not a freshman would be seen dead there, even if that’s where she had spent the majority of her freshman year.

There’s clearly some line where simping works, in the sense of “doing things for women,” but when you go too far, you lower your value, and women lose respect for you. Smart guys find that line. Where does courtesy end, and simping begin? Which brings me to my question: to pay or not to pay for women on dates?  I’ve always been of the opinion that if the woman wants to split, I split, and, if not, I assume I’ll pay: but I never insist and I don’t give them any pushback.

My girlfriend went on a first date with a guy last week, and one of the things she remarked on was that while she was in the bathroom he paid the bill without her knowing.  When he was ready to go he was like, “let’s get out of here,” and when she inquired about the bill he cooly remarked that he’d already taken care of it.  Smooth.  She considers herself a feminist, and has always insisted on paying half on dates, and she historically has gone on a lot of dates.  I’ve been questioning her reasoning, now that we’re in a relationship: why not let the guy pay?

She told me she found it incredibly sexy that he paid for her, and it felt to her similar to how she’s envisioned a sex worker feels. The man desires her so much that he wants to pay for access to her body.  She used the term, “worships my body.”  

On her second date with this guy he invited her to his place and offered to pay for her car home because he lives quite a ways away, and she’d be coming home late.  Again, she was incredibly turned on by this arrangement and said, “fuck feminism, this is so hot.”  

Quite a shift, and an intriguing one.

What’s the difference between simping, and fulfilling a masculine script?

Guys online, hearing his story, might call him a simp. I’d call him successful. 

Note: For context he is 18 years older than her so he is fulfilling a more older gentleman script which might be experienced differently if they were a similar age.

Red Quest here. I think it’s generally wise to pay for early dates, unless she absolutely insists on splitting, or unless you’ve had a miserable date and don’t want to see her again anyway. Protecting value is important, but not at the expense of masculine leadership and identity… though I’ve probably flip-flopped on this issue, depending on mood and recent experiences.

This also seems like an area where girls who are asked, by friends or when sober, will say, “I am a feminist and want to pay half on dates.” When girls are out with a man they’re attracted to, their feminine sides are more assertive, and they’ll like the man behaving like a man, so she can behave like a woman. It’s not what the girl says, it’s what she does… and who she does.

I’ve slept with annoying “feminist” girls who will make dumb claims like “there are no differences between men and women.” If girls make those kinds of claims, I ignore them, or steer the conversation in different directions… my goal is to f**k, not to have political arguments.

After this was published, I read “The Woman Crushing on the Guy From Her Mutual-Aid Group,” which includes the line, “Noah doesn’t buy my Uber home and I’m bitter.” It’s a common mistake to underestimate women’s pettiness and entitlement.

Lessons for men and players from The State of Affairs

The State of Affairs should be assigned reading to guys thinking about marrying but also to guys who want to be players… Esther says, “Whether we like it or not, philandering is here to stay. And all the ink spilled advising us on how to ‘affair-proof’ our relationships has not managed to curb the number of men and women who wander.” I beg you not to despair, but to contemplate the truth of that statement and think about it before you consider marrying some woman: fidelity is temporary, but some other dude’s baby is forever. What should we do with this knowledge? Consensual non-monogamy is one answer, one that I’ve elucidated extensively, probably tediously, since Perel says “infidelity has a tenacity that marriage can only envy.” Speaking of infidelity “also plunges us into today’s culture of entitlement, where we take our privileges for granted.” She says “entitlement,” but “narcissism” would be a truer, more accurate word: the ocean of attention available to women on Instagram loosens whatever bond to a man any individual woman might once have had. All her exes live in texts, waiting for her to resurrect the affair: social media dissolves the bonds of marriage and affection like strong acid dissolves metals. Women know it and will, in private, admit it… an individual man cannot keep up with the man parade on her phone, with her ADD mind as it flicks and scrolls and fantasizes. What are you going to do with this information? If you’re like most men, you’re going to ignore it, pretend it doesn’t exist, like most people pretend that growing atmospheric carbon dioxide emissions somehow won’t affect them… the past year has demonstrated the human organism’s capacity for denial, which knowledge cannot seem to staunch. There is “more freedom, as well as more uncertainty” today, but most countries fight against standard DNA testing at birth.

You can be the guy she cheats on, or the one she cheats with. Which do you prefer? Choose?

Continue reading “Lessons for men and players from The State of Affairs”

A guy screws up a potential foursome with his endless monologuing

My then-girlfriend and I were propositioned by this couple, and it might have gone through, except for the guy’s personality. We met this couple outside of the open relationship and non-monogamy community because they lived near us and shared some common habits: the girl was a hot European, probably a high 8. We’d encountered them repeatedly, in the neighborhood, and they were friendly and normal at first… the guy also helped us find a small bit MDMA, which is nice). One night we were all drinking a bit and actually getting to know each other, as opposed to idle chitchat. It’s hard to describe the exact feeling, and nothing physical changed, but over the course of the night I felt the energy shift from “normal and friendly” to “this is more than friendly.” I’m sure my girlfriend felt the shift too, as she’d been sufficiently immersed in this world to know.

I wasn’t totally opposed to to the potential foursome (did I mention the girl is stunning?), but, even though my girlfriend and I could feel the sexual interest, the other guy couldn’t shut up. When we were all hanging out, he’d embark on these endlessly long rambles and tangents. Not sharing the conversation is one of my partner’s huge pet peeves, and she’s been annoyed at work when guys talk over her or try to talk over her, and she’d complained repeatedly and vociferously about guys who monologue. Just like this guy was doing. Sharing the conversation is a fundamental aspect of social skills, and this other guy wasn’t doing it. If a person is going to monologue, they better have Chris Rock or Jerry Seinfeld levels of story quality. This guy didn’t.

From what I could distil, they both had super interesting life stories, but we couldn’t extract those life stories, or hear them… I was thinking of the guy when I wrote Curiosity leads to sexual freedom… and threesomes… and storytelling, although he’s not the only one who’s had this problem.

Continue reading “A guy screws up a potential foursome with his endless monologuing”

Girls talking about their friend’s open relationship: It’s happening

The other day I’m in a mezzanine above the gym’s snack bar, and below me there are four chicks, one of them loudly describing her friend’s open relationship. Friends’s open relationship, more accurately, cause she knows, and the others there appear to know, this couple who are in an open relationship, and the girl talking in the snack bar says the guy is busy f**king a bunch of girls… and the girl is bisexual and also f**king a bunch of girls. The other three girls’s reactions is the most interesting part: one seems to be generally positive or approving of the situation. Another chick seems to be generally hostile and disapproving, and is trying to establish the consensus that the open relationship “is not okay,” to use girl terminology. Personally I prefer old-school Christian terminology like “they are damned” or “they are disobeying the will of God” or “they are sinners” instead of the new-school, wishy-washy, California SJW terminology like “not okay,” but, whatever, you call someone a heresiarch these days and everyone else looks at you funny. The other girl listening seems neutral, or is not loudly expressing her view of the situation. The speaker seems lightly positive, like she’s the teacher educating the others on the nuts and bolts of open relationships, and how this couple is doing it. Now, class, what is the square root of three?

On Twitter, I’ve been linking to articles discussing open relationships, sex clubs, and other aspects of non-monogamy, with the statement, “It’s happening:” I repeat “It’s happening” because it is happening, ready or not, and these girls are a small but real piece of evidence regarding the shift. Guys who want to be maximally successful should think about how the shift to non-monogamy might affect them and their game. I’m not saying all guys should do sex clubs (in fact I say the opposite in the free book), but guys should at a minimum be aware of it. Talk to enough girls and you’re going to run into girls who’re doing it, or interested. If you like hedonistic adventurous girls like I do, talking about your time in sex clubs will attract and intrigue them (you’ll be different from other guys).

This was an overheard conversation not so much notable for its basic content but for it happening at all. Word is spreading. It also showcased female group dynamics (remember: social life is primarily a team sport), because the girls were trying to establish consensus and sway the group… the hostile girl wanted the group to be hostile, the approving girl wanted its approval, and the neutral girl might end up being the deciding vote. Because I know you’re wondering, only one is attractive (the quiet one, but you knew that already too) and the other three are overweight. Does that change how you envision the situation?

I’d have a threesome with him. What, you wouldn’t? What do you mean, this hat makes me look like a slut? I saw that rope tattoo on your lower back.

“A Unicorn’s Tale: Three-Way Sex With Couples Has Made Me a Better Person”

A Unicorn’s Tale: Three-Way Sex With Couples Has Made Me a Better Person” won’t contain anything surprising to Red Quest readers, but it’s notable because it’s published in a mainstream venue and it’s written by the daughter of a famous person. On Twitter, I’ve been keeping up a steady stream of articles like this one, with the tagline, “It’s happening. Are you ready?” When I started in consensual non-monogamy, it was still mostly underground. Few girls were really familiar with its ideas. I don’t think Vanity Fair was publishing this kind of dirty “Unicorn’s Tale” back then… and today it is. The change is happening, if it hasn’t happened already.

Chicks are getting a steady diet of the idea that non-monogamy is fun and socially okay, and this is important because most chicks want to stay with the herd and avoid doing anything that will make them outcasts or “weird.” Chicks mostly rely on guys to make things to happen for them. By now, most young hot chicks know friends who have dabbled in non-monogamy. Chicks are swapping non-monogamy stories and ideas on places like Twitter and Reddit and, as more open up to the idea, the guys who can make it happen are going to have an edge on the guys who can’t. The chick who wrote that piece is pretty good looking in most of the pics Google Images shows, too (an important thing to check, because unattractive women will amp up their sexual signaling as a means of trying to attract men who might take the easy layup but don’t want to put in the work).

So: Are you ready?

 

 

 

XBTUSD’s take on “the talk” a woman gives when she wants to advance the relationship

XBTUSD is back: his last post describes his first sex party, and he’s written three other posts too.

Almost every male and female in a modern dating context is doing some form of a dance: women want an escalator relationship towards marriage, and men want to avoid committing for a long as possible. Men enjoy the pre-label part of the relationship and women get value and security out of the label. Breeze’s post and Nash/RQ’s comments brought up some interesting points about this age-old topic: should a guy get out in front of things and confront the inevitable and have the talk, or should you avoid the talk and build tension, as Nash suggests? I strongly side with RQ and Lucas Bly, but Nash’s comments added another distinction. I’ve heard many in TRP communities argue that those who have the talk aren’t skilled, can’t hold tension, and are essentially pussies for giving in to what the woman wants and losing the frame. But Nash’s comment that he offers up, “I am your lover” made me realize we all might actually be agreeing here.

There’s value in building and holding tension, but only if it is inevitably released. Good standup is setup, punchline, build tension, release tension, and good seduction should have a similar cadence. Those who say you can avoid “the talk” altogether come off as those that haven’t spent much time around women and are LARPing. The talk is inevitable, so how can we approach it from a Red Pill frame. We have to lead. Create the frame, and let her step into it.

TRQ has a great post on the book Warrior King Magician Lover. Continue reading “XBTUSD’s take on “the talk” a woman gives when she wants to advance the relationship”

What XBTUSD’s first sex party was like

A continuation of XBTUSD’s previous post, “Setting the non-monogamous frame and intention with women.”

My first (planned) group sex experience was a sex party that was relatively easy to get into, and relatively easy to find (the attendees were not that hot: which may not be a coincidence). It’s possible to find sex parties with two minutes and a search engine. I went with my girlfriend at the time and two other couples, and all we did was have sex with each other in a setting where other people were having sex with each other. It was disorienting to be having sex next to other people. I couldn’t cum because I was so distracted by being on an uncomfortable bed, and feeling like people were judging my sexual performance. Later, I learned that people are concentrating on their own experience, not on “judging me:” I was having a spotlight effect problem. Most people care about themselves, not about you, and letting go of the spotlight effect enables a better, more adventurous life. Luckily, I didn’t have trouble getting or staying hard, but it was surprising how nerve wracking it was (many guys use drugs like Cialis to give themselves a boost). I highly suggest doing something like this before you have a threesome or foursome to get some practice in a context where there are more people present than just your female partner.

It’s always the man’s job to lead, and to make the women feel comfortable, safe, and allow them to push their limits. Ideally, prior to the “event”, you should have an adult conversation where you talk about boundaries, things you’d like to try together, condoms, etc. Maybe I’ll write up a topic list in a future post. This convo should happen in a social setting like a bar, not the place you’re going to have sex (maybe not even on the same night as the group sex) so that it doesn’t kill the vibe/spontaneity of the actual sex. The more experienced the participants, the less this applies, because you can have the conversation during sex or right before. Once you know people’s desires/boundaries, you can push a lot harder because you don’t have to worry you might push too far. It’s also good to know people’s experience levels so you can tailor the energy level based on the experience levels of those in a group. Don’t do varsity level shit with most beginners. If she loves the first time, ramp up the next experience.

In a foursome (two men two women) you have a bit of a conundrum because we know that the man should lead (you), but there are two men. Should it be you or the other guy? The answer doesn’t really matter as much as some think, as long as the women feel like everything is moving naturally. The girls don’t want to feel uncertainty around leadership, so it’s important to either plan out, prior to the event, who’s going to lead between the two men, or, if one of you is more dominant than the other, defer to that. Also, if you’re in one or the other’s home, it’s natural to defer to the one whose home you’re in.

Continue reading “What XBTUSD’s first sex party was like”

Setting the non-monogamous frame and intention with women: XBTUSD

XBTUSD has another essay about his adventures in non-monogamy.

“Congruence” is the most important attribute when entering the world of group sex or sex parties: as mentioned in previous posts, my brand with women is honesty and direct communication. Even when I’m telling them what they don’t want to hear, (i.e. “I don’t want to be in a monogamous relationship”), they’re willing to compromise because it’s so rare to be able to trust what a man tells them what he really wants. Most men believe that if they tell women the truth, they won’t get what they want (sex). I’ve found the opposite: when women can turn off the part of their brain that is designed to suss out whether a man can be trusted, and are absolutely sure that what he says is ALWAYS what will happen, another world opens up.

Congruence comes from demonstrating through my actions that my words have value. Women can tell that when I say something I mean it, and while I might change my mind (rarely), I have values and standards and am willing to walk away when those aren’t adhered to. My ability to walk away allows women to feel safe. It’s also a function of leading with vulnerability. Early and often I communicate things that most men wouldn’t, take risks that I/they know most women would be turned off by. By making sure we are on the same page, I risk losing them. Because I’m willing to say and do things that won’t work for many women, they see that I have:

  • abundance
  • standards
  • she can trust me

Continue reading “Setting the non-monogamous frame and intention with women: XBTUSD”

Not the only guy who’s figured it out

Mr Non-Monogamous, Part 1 – The Unexpected Date” is from an older woman’s dating journal, and it’s about a guy who’s figured out pretty much what I’ve figured out… Lucy is older, verging on being a spinster, so she is very unapproving of men with lots of options, but read through the bile and you’ll see that the fellow, Charlie, has figured out that non-monogamy can work,

What the actual fuck is it with all these guys wanting to be in ‘Open Relationships’? Pretending to be all enlightened, all shary and sex-positive and forward-thinking, when really it’s just them wanting to stick their dicks into as many women as possible. It’s total, shameless, greedy fuckboyery, is what it is. At least in the past men had the decency to try to hide it if they wanted to bone a string of different women. Today it seems being a cheating arsehole is now a ‘lifestyle choice’.

No need to pretend enlightenment, but if you want “to stick your dick into as many women as possible” and “bone a string of different women” non-monogamy can be a functional frame in order to achieve those ends.

Charlie is “completely open about his relationship status, and he’s clearly very interested in her. Which, even coming from a total man-whore, is super flattering,” so he has that advantage… although merely being into a younger and hotter woman will often not be that flattering to her because everyone is into her. He has decent moves and is not a p***y, as so many men are today (so chicks tell me…), “he kisses her again, harder, grabbing her hair firmly at the back of her head and leaning fully into the kiss. Assertive, dominating, determined. This is a man who knows what he wants and is used to getting it. It’s insanely sexy.”

She seems to take too long to lay, IMO, but, whatever, the most notable piece of the story is the guy, who has figured out what I have figured out and what you, if you have been reading here long enough, have also figured out. It’s still surprising to me that, apart from Blackdragon and now a few others, like Yoylo, more guys haven’t incorporated this frame and these ideas into their game. I have heard it said that more chicks are putting “no poly” or “no swingers” on their online dating profiles (always ignore the profile claims about her not being a slut or whatever), so these practices must be spreading.

XBTUSD on his first non-monogamy experiences

XBTUSD has a follow-up post, which will make sense in the context of his earlier post.

TRQ asked about my first experience with non monogamy where I was with a girl who was not my partner.

I started to move into ethical non-monogamy (ENM) by changing the structure of the “dating” phase of relationships. Where I live, everyone assumes everyone is seeing/fucking other people until an explicit define the relationship (DTR) conversation happens. A clock starts running when you know that past a certain point, even though it was not made explicit, if your girl found out you were sleeping with another girl, she’d be angry even if technically she had no right to be (girls don’t readily accept emotional contracts). I started making the implicit contract we all sign (when we start dating people) explicit. I’d tell girls right from the starting point (first date) that I only wanted to be in non-monogamous relationships and that I didn’t want to be in any sort of committed relationship at the current moment. I like to call most relationships with an implicit contract “escalator” relationships: men know that once they start dating a girl the clock starts ticking and the girl will try and move you up the escalator as quickly as possible:

non exclusive → exclusive → meet friends → boyfriend → meet family → move in → marriage → children

Women compete for status by their ability to extract resources from high status men, and therefore it’s socially desirable to compare where they are in the relationship escalator with their friends, and in turn men throughout the years have come up with every possible way to drag their feet and slow this process. Women lose status when they can’t get you to the next step in a socially acceptable amount of time because time is the most precious resource a woman has. In the same way companies have “title” inflation to keep dumb millennials around without paying them more, men have used “title” inflation in a relationship context to keep women around longer by giving them new titles that come with no true concessions and resource investments on our part. Amongst Gen Z “exclusive” but not in a relationship is now a thing?

How can you exit this whole maddening structure? Give women the information, let them take responsibility for their choices. Rather than living in the world of don’t ask don’t tell about the other people we all know we’re seeing, I started being explicit about exactly what women could expect from me, and it was life changing. In many ways, I wasn’t doing anything that different than anyone else does when dating where I live, I was just being candid about it.

The first true extra partner experience I had once I was in a committed non monogamous relationship was actually initiated by my girlfriend (we can call her Sarah). Sarah had the highest sex drive of anyone I had ever been with, and was very sexually open. We had talked about having a threesome with a girl but she had said she wasn’t attracted to girls. She was a big drinker, and generally (like most people) became much wilder when she was drinking. One night I was at a big outdoor EDM show, rolling (MDMA) with a big crew of people and her and one of my female friends (Corey) just started making out. Corey was married to another friend of mine (Andrew). Andrew and I chatted and agreed we were both down to have a foursome. We went back to our place and had the standard hetero foursome where everyone fucks but the two dudes don’t touch each other at all. Andrew was cool with it but was slightly nervous so a lot of it was Corey and Sarah hooking up and us watching. I felt no fear/disgust/nervousness but rather was super turned on by the whole thing. I think a big part of it was that I knew everyone so well. It was hard to imagine feeling threatened by the interaction. A week later we all got together and debriefed and everyone agreed they had a great time. No latent jealousy, misunderstandings etc. Continue reading “XBTUSD on his first non-monogamy experiences”