XBTUSD on his first non-monogamy experiences

XBTUSD has a follow-up post, which will make sense in the context of his earlier post.

TRQ asked about my first experience with non monogamy where I was with a girl who was not my partner.

I started to move into ethical non-monogamy (ENM) by changing the structure of the “dating” phase of relationships. Where I live, everyone assumes everyone is seeing/fucking other people until an explicit define the relationship (DTR) conversation happens. A clock starts running when you know that past a certain point, even though it was not made explicit, if your girl found out you were sleeping with another girl, she’d be angry even if technically she had no right to be (girls don’t readily accept emotional contracts). I started making the implicit contract we all sign (when we start dating people) explicit. I’d tell girls right from the starting point (first date) that I only wanted to be in non-monogamous relationships and that I didn’t want to be in any sort of committed relationship at the current moment. I like to call most relationships with an implicit contract “escalator” relationships: men know that once they start dating a girl the clock starts ticking and the girl will try and move you up the escalator as quickly as possible:

non exclusive → exclusive → meet friends → boyfriend → meet family → move in → marriage → children

Women compete for status by their ability to extract resources from high status men, and therefore it’s socially desirable to compare where they are in the relationship escalator with their friends, and in turn men throughout the years have come up with every possible way to drag their feet and slow this process. Women lose status when they can’t get you to the next step in a socially acceptable amount of time because time is the most precious resource a woman has. In the same way companies have “title” inflation to keep dumb millennials around without paying them more, men have used “title” inflation in a relationship context to keep women around longer by giving them new titles that come with no true concessions and resource investments on our part. Amongst Gen Z “exclusive” but not in a relationship is now a thing?

How can you exit this whole maddening structure? Give women the information, let them take responsibility for their choices. Rather than living in the world of don’t ask don’t tell about the other people we all know we’re seeing, I started being explicit about exactly what women could expect from me, and it was life changing. In many ways, I wasn’t doing anything that different than anyone else does when dating where I live, I was just being candid about it.

The first true extra partner experience I had once I was in a committed non monogamous relationship was actually initiated by my girlfriend (we can call her Sarah). Sarah had the highest sex drive of anyone I had ever been with, and was very sexually open. We had talked about having a threesome with a girl but she had said she wasn’t attracted to girls. She was a big drinker, and generally (like most people) became much wilder when she was drinking. One night I was at a big outdoor EDM show, rolling (MDMA) with a big crew of people and her and one of my female friends (Corey) just started making out. Corey was married to another friend of mine (Andrew). Andrew and I chatted and agreed we were both down to have a foursome. We went back to our place and had the standard hetero foursome where everyone fucks but the two dudes don’t touch each other at all. Andrew was cool with it but was slightly nervous so a lot of it was Corey and Sarah hooking up and us watching. I felt no fear/disgust/nervousness but rather was super turned on by the whole thing. I think a big part of it was that I knew everyone so well. It was hard to imagine feeling threatened by the interaction. A week later we all got together and debriefed and everyone agreed they had a great time. No latent jealousy, misunderstandings etc. Continue reading “XBTUSD on his first non-monogamy experiences”

XBTUSD on his non-monogamy experiences

Reader and regular commenter XBTUSD sent this essay on his experiences with non-monogamy and related topics.

I’ve been exploring the non-monogamous world for around seven years and have had a myriad of experiences pretty different than TRQ’s, and I hope sharing them might be valuable to his audience: I really respect the community he’s built [editor’s note: community of lunatics?], his writing style, and the quality of the discussions in the comments section. Maybe my experiences can serve as a useful counterpoint to TRQ’s and we can compare and contrast.

I first heard about ethical non-monogamy (ENM) at work, teaching a room full of people when my high school girlfriend called me (she had become a close friend after we stopped dating) to tell me about the threesome she’d with her new boyfriend. I was in my late 20s, had never had a threesome or even come close, and was thrilled to hear that this type of thing was happening for real. She’d recently moved out to SF and had gotten immersed in the ENM/psychedelic/tech scene out there, and her and the BF were exploring ENM. She’d always been one of the most sexually open women I’ve met—in high school, we used to go to concerts and have competitions to see who could make out with the most people—so none of this shocked me. The part of the story that did surprise me was that for the month following the threesome, they’d been having the best sex of their lives. This was a huge shift for me in terms of what I saw as possible.

Continue reading “XBTUSD on his non-monogamy experiences”

What the thinking escort is thinking

From a funny tweet, “I’m not doing onlyfans because I need to I’m doing it because I’m slutty and I like money.” It got me thinking, past what I’ve written before… there’s probably some truth to that woman’s rationale… the good/psychologically sound strippers/escorts I know, or have known, get in the business because they like f**king a lot anyway and often like doing it with strangers. They’re like, “I could make a million bucks doing this part time, and I’m already doing it anyway.” Clients are usually older than the average guy they’d hook up with on their own, but some aren’t, and some are pretty decent in bed. A sex worker is really an amateur psychologist who also f**ks… her job is to figure out what the client really wants (often not what he says at first) and deliver it. A lot of regular consultants do this too, but bring a different skillset to the table.

I have probably met more girls who are sex positive and highly sexed, and mentally unblocked about it, than the average man has, because those girls often find their way into the sex-positive community and into sex clubs and sex club culture (sometimes clients bring them as dates). For a lot of these girls, they want to f**k a lot anyway, aren’t very interested in monogamy, are open to experience, and like sex adventures. If a woman likes those things anyway… she might as well get paid for them… like a guy who likes programming computers on his own time will also discover a robust market, and be pleased that he can get paid for stuff he’s doing anyway.

These chicks aren’t super common, and for the most part they aren’t completely flaunting who they are. Very few chicks, even sex positive ones, will announce they’re into sex work, or that sex work turns them on.

They can do math…. let’s take a woman who works as as sex worker from age 20 – 30 and she is hot and decently good at business. She charges say $500/hour and $2000/night in a big city. She works one night a week, and for the sake of simplicity we’re going to count each month as consisting of 28 days, so she gets a few extra nights off. She gets two one-hour sessions and two overnights a month, on average, so that’s $1,000 and $4,000 a month, or $5,000/month, or $60,000/year. Times ten years, that’s $600,000. She might also pick up some tips and some fringe benefits, but she also has to pay for fancy lingerie/clothes/etc. Some costs involved. She’s not quite made a million dollars in the four times/month scenario but if she’s enterprising and willing to work a bit more, she can get to that million pre-tax dollars.

Few normal men want to date sex workers (I bet you would never have believed that…). There’s some sex-worker talk out there about how sex work isn’t real sex and doesn’t count… we can safely discount that hamstering because of course to most normal men it “counts.” If she’s out f**king for money, then to balance the reciprocity equation, he needs to have his piece of the open relationship… and sex clubs are a way of achieving that. So sex workers who are highly sexed to begin with, will often also seek guys who are already versed in open relationships.

The majority of sex workers probably come from stereotypical f**ked up families, desperation, poverty, etc., and they realize that sex worker is more lucrative than other kinds of work, but it takes an emotional and spiritual toll that leads a lot of women to drugs, if they’re not starting from there. All professions have a culture associated with them and sex work, like music or anesthesiology, has a drug culture associated with it. So there’s a lot to be said for the messed-up stereotype, but I don’t think the sex work makes the woman messed up so much as she arrives at it already messed up.

Mostly I’ve been describing the psychology of the mentally healthier sex workers… the less mentally healthy ones are really dark, and often not very bright… bright women realize that sex work is a time-limited activity… and it’s hard to do well… scamming men is especially dangerous.

Obviously this is not very relevant right now, since I bet sex work is pretty dead, because of the risk and the unemployment rate (among clients). In a bad economy, hiring sex workers is one of the first things to go… and other girls flood the market simultaneously, although I’m not sure that’s happening right now. But… what’s happening cannot go on forever, so it won’t. I don’t think it can even go on a year.

Guys have to be pretty determined to want to hire an escort. Chicks have to be pretty determined to take the risk. A lot of the kinds of chicks in their 20s who would form the bulk of the industry are living with family right now, if they can. The ones who aren’t, aren’t paying their bills, cause evictions have been halted in a lot of places. But we’re going to have to re-start the economy sometime… within two years we should have a vaccine… some fundamentals will remain.

Couple-to-couple dating mechanics, and keeping a texting roster for sex clubs

(Adapted from the book.)

Most guys are familiar with one-on-one dating, and models for players doing one-on-one dating are widely available. The skills learned in one-on-one dating apply to two-on-two dating. Simple ones include avoiding politics; searching for common ground; understanding hopes, dreams, and aspirations; listening more than speaking (if possible); having stories to share (if possible); etc. All the stuff from How to Win Friends and Influence People, as well as many other books. It’s also helpful to gauge the experience level of the other couple, cause if they’re highly experienced, it’s easy to accelerate towards sex. If they’ve never done a “full swap” (the men have sex with each other’s woman), go more slowly, take more time, and let them ramp up towards it.

There are two critical parts to two-on-two dating: your girl has to be devoted to being on the same team as you are. In addition, she has to be willing to help you succeed with another couple.

Lots of couples with a bi girl in the mix will hunt for a single girl. Single, attractive girls are called “unicorns” for a reason. They can be found, but demand far outstrips supply.

Some of the guys who read here are learning the non-monogamy ropes; most of this is in the book, but I thought I’d excerpt it here for whoever is curious. The person whose Twitter DM inspires it, knows who he is.

Couple-to-couple dating usually happens when contact details are swapped at a party, or when a couple finds each other online (it’s also useful to watch for a guy who tries to get your girl’s contact info: if he does, just tell him that you handle dates). If you’ve met at a party, regular phone numbers or email addresses are typically used. As of this writing, most people online seem to have Kik accounts; people like Kik accounts because they’re relatively anonymous, though I’m sure that the company could be subpoenaed for information about the person behind the pseudonym.

Couples from parties are, in me experience, more reliable and less likely to flake, but some will. First dates are not unlike regular first dates, except harder to coordinate, because they require the schedules of four people to mesh, not just two people. They’re also more likely to end in sex, if everything goes well.

If your girl is aligned with you, it’s useful to evaluate the other couple, even if they already meet your looks threshold. For example, if the guy is a blowhard, or doesn’t show reciprocity, or is disrespectful of you, your girl, or his girl, it’s time to leave. In normal dates, it’s somewhat common to fight through some amount of female bad behavior, much of which may just be a shit test, but if you see bad or indifferent behavior, it’s time to bail. Some girls will come out on dates at the behest of their primary partner, but if she seems bored or uninterested, it’s time to run: she will probably not want actual sex.

Some guys will also pretend to have a girl, then show up to a couples date alone, saying that his girl is out of town. When that happens, leave, obviously.

Remember the fundamental rule of sex clubs: value-for-value. Guys only bring value if they bring a hot chick with them. In normal, 1:1 dating, “value-for-value” is a little bit different, as the guy is assessing the chick’s physical attractiveness and sanity, while the chick is also assessing the guy’s physical attractiveness and sanity, but she’s also assessing a lot more about his social world, his emotional world, his dominance/prestige, etc. Guys who attempt to “give” too much value in the form of paying for expensive dinners, giving gifts prematurely, etc. are actually demonstrating lower value. With 2:2 dating, the value proposition is about two guys bringing two hot chicks to the situation.

There are a fair number of “pic hunters” or “pic collectors” online, and for that reason I’m reluctant to send nudes in advance, in most cases. Sometimes, if the vibe is good, I will, but I minimize that by saying that we prefer to meet each other in person.

It’s good to think of yourself as a guest in someone else’s relationship, and for them to think of themselves as a guest in your relationship. If they don’t conduct themselves appropriately, it’s time to end the interaction. Interaction problems are especially common among new couples who have no social script to follow, and in new couples it’s common for one person to be more excited about non-monogamy than the other person, leading to conflict. That conflict may be submerged at first but will emerge the closer the evening gets to sex. At clubs, I have seen guys start crying the first time they see their partners have sex with someone else, and I’ve seen the same from women. Most people don’t know how they’re going to react, which is why doing this while married or cohabitating is so dangerous for novices.
If this seems over-explained, imagine trying to explain conventional dating, in full, both the subtext and context, to someone who’s never done it before. The basic idea seems simple, but the complexities are sufficient to fill numerous books (most bad, like The Rules) and be the subject of endless gossip. I’m trying to prepare guys for most eventualities.

I spent some time doing two-on-two dating, but I make minimal effort in that domain. If I’m on the market, I’ll typically give one or two apps or websites a look once a week. Today, Feeld is probably the most common app, followed by OKCupid. SwingLifeStyle.com used to be the most common site, but its dated feel dissuades most couples in their 20s. I’ve heard people discuss SDC.com. By the time you read this, some other apps or websites may be common; the dating world changes fast enough that what’s true today may not be true tomorrow.

It’s typically bad form for opposite-sex individuals to contact one another directly. That is, it’s common for guys to talk to each other to make arrangements, for groups of all four people to talk, and for girls to talk to each other, but when a guy contacts the other couple, it’s typically for surreptitious one-on-one sex. Players know that, usually, the most difficult time moving a girl to sex is the first time. After the first time, the guy doesn’t “count” as a new guy, so the girl is much more pliant. Even guys who can’t articulate the situation like this are aware of it, so after a couple-to-couple swap, a fair number of guys will try to arrange sex. That’s where your girl should tell you, “Hey, Joe just texted me to meet up one-on-one.” Then you can either tell Joe to f**k off, or you can ask his girl if they’re also dating separately.

This is a game theory problem. In a two-couple, four-person situation, there are strong reasons to defect, for the sake of the sexual novelty. But a hot chick brings automatic value to the situation, so it’s usually bad practice and bad game to let her go sleep with another guy, one-on-one, with no reciprocity.

Finally, a word on flaking. With a typical, one-on-one date, there are only two possible flaking parties. With a two-on-two date, that number increases to four. Beyond that math, many more people are attracted to the idea of consensual non-monogamy than are ready to execute the idea. In many couples, one party will be far more into it than the other, so the one party will get online, create a profile, start chatting, set up dates, etc., only to have the other party veto the whole thing at the last minute.

In addition, some couples like the idea of consensually f**king other people in theory, but when the moment of turning theory into practice arrives, they no longer like it so much. Flaking and ghosting online typically care no consequences, so people are more willing to engage in bad behavior. Expect a lot of flaking in this domain.

When a couple flakes, I’ll sometimes shoot them an email about the next sex club I’m going to and when I’ll be there. They can show up, or not. This might sound like a waste of time to players used to the normal dating world, but sometimes a couple I’ve interacted with online will show up four or six months later and be down for a great swap. The cost to me is low: I have a list of potential couples on email, kik, and text; I send them all the notice a week or two before the event or club night; and then if they show up, great, and if not, I’m not out much. If the girl is ugly or my girl doesn’t like the guy, we can be polite, say hi, and then fade into the background or move on to other couples. For some couples, the email or text saying, we’re going to the ____ Adult Club, is sufficient to get them off their asses. Others never show, and that’s life. Online life is flakier than real life.

There’s one club in particular where I’m somewhat known (and popular) for bringing in newbies, because I’ll use the above strategy. Couples can debate among themselves whether they want to show up or not. If they cancel two hours before the date, which is sadly common, my girl and I don’t care.

It’s not worth taking flaking seriously: assume you’ll see more flaking rather than less. I don’t spend a lot of time chit-chatting online. After two or three exchanges, I propose a time and place to meet. If they can do it, great. If not, I move on, and I’ll keep them around for party invites. Enough quality chicks and couples have shown up after six months of invites for me to keep up the practice.

Lots of swings and lots of misses (FR)

[This happened before coronavirus shut the world down, but I didn’t put up the story right away.] 

Went to a party without a date… but I went with friends who vouched for me and functioned as dates. They brought extra girls (who weren’t appealing to me, physically or intellectually/psychologically, but that happens). The girls took some drug that made them very friendly.

I knew a few girls at the party, including this one (again)… and she is now ROUGH. When I first started seeing her I’d have given her an 8… by the time I wrote about cutting her loose she was more like a low 8/high 7 and now she is like a 6… not fat, exactly, but weird rolls of stomach fat and fat legs. I saw some girl going down on her and thought “She is only 26 and looks awful.” Her life is a trainwreck too, and the fall over a short period of time is a testament to the destructive power of drugs, even “legal” drugs (of the wrong kind and taken too frequently). I feel bad for her, because all of her relationships, whether with friends, lovers, roommates, etc., have been severed, often abruptly and in a difficult way, by her behavior… and she doesn’t appear to understand why. I pity her. Drugs and other problems are ruining her life and career. I may check in and see if she’s trying to get off them.

Met a couple who didn’t know each other well and had met recently… a couple who don’t know each other well and aren’t officially dating means that the girl may be up for grabs (something that I don’t think I thought to include in the book). The girl was somewhere between a high 6 and mid 7 but I liked her vibe… she was bouncing with excitement and pleasure when I met her, and enthusiasm is infectious, like coronavirus, but less dangerous. She’s also a kinky slut, and much later I picked up her contact details, and her dates’s.

Did a ton of spanking & flogging. Few people there appeared to know what they were doing with BDSM and the fact that I’ve developed those skills seemed to set me apart. Lots of audience, which started with me spanking my friend. Didn’t seem like anyone else brought floggers.

Closest shot on goal was a girl, Alyssa, who I spanked and who LIKED pain. I spanked another girl who was super cute, with a newbie boyfriend. Great to spank but said she has high pain tolerance (she doesn’t). Then her boyfriend wanted to be spanked, for some reason, to know what it was like? Not my favorite thing to do but it seemed like a moment when I ought to just go for it, so I did, and explained to him what I was doing, what I think about, how I check in with the girl, etc. So it was like half spanking, half tutorial. Couldn’t tell if I was getting bi vibes off him… I hope not. But the main way people learn this stuff is peer to peer, so I did some education? Don’t fully know how to interpret this, so the question marks.

Alyssa… I really worked over her ass and thighs. Long warm-up. Lots of flogging, eventually leading to full-on backhand, like a tennis player’s backstroke, with a paddle. The buildup allowed her to access that part of her. Most guys rush girls too much at every level, from the first kiss to the foreplay to the f**king, when girls want guys to move like 50% slower. Not so slow as to be languid, but more deliberately than most guys go. Be assertive enough for her to know your desire but understand chicks need more time than most guys give them. Alyssa did a lot of kind of annoying topping from the bottom, but I didn’t know her and so didn’t call her out on it. Spent a long time working her over, and interleaving touching gently and some kissing. Very passionate kissing. After, I asked her for sex and she said no but that she wanted to see me later. Later, we went to another area and talked, then made out some. I moved her around some, which she seemed to like, and set her up to grind. It was erotic, feeling her hips move and the sharp intakes of breath as she got going. I got about half hard, which she could feel, then she backed off again, saying she wasn’t into sex that night.

Some more negotiations followed and Alyssa didn’t want to f**k, Although she didn’t say it, she knew exactly what I was trying to do by heating her up, and she didn’t want to do it and only wanted to make out. She negged me by saying that I seem “goal oriented.” I laughed… she’s not wrong. Didn’t have a great response, honestly, because agreeing made me seem a little slimy, and the opposite wasn’t true and claiming not to be isn’t consisten with what she’d seen of my personality and skills. She wanted to know if I was going to stay and I was just like, “I’m tired and heading home.” Maybe could have played last cock standing but I believe the gold seam was played out and produced no nuggets, just a few flakes. With Alyssa I think she knew what was up, what her strict limits were for whatever reason, and that was that. She lives out of town, so I doubt I’ll see her again. Will follow up today but I’m not optimistic. I told this story to one player who said

There’s a weird negative vibe on chicks who are a “no” to f**king. It’s different from LMR. It’s like you can feel their mindset is set to No.

I lose interest pretty quickly if she is not at least open to f**king.

Part of the annoyance is when you sense on a limbic level that the purpose of her not f**king is due to a power dynamic and not because she is not ready/in the mood. It’s a huge turnoff.

I would offer a counter take on this… Alyssa wasn’t open last night but might be in the future. She was a forebrain override girl, one who liked that I had met a lot of people, spanked a lot of chicks, and demonstrated social competence and BDSM competence. There weren’t a lot of unoccupied cute girls. Transparently losing interest too fast is a mistake… it gives bad vibes to the girl and also f**ks up future events. I have her # and will ping her. A few weeks or months from now it could happen. She’s a good person to invite to random events when I don’t have anything else going on.

It’s bad to get the reputation as the guy who chases girls and then does a 180 when they won’t f**k right away. If the player abruptly pulls away once or twice, okay, lack of chemistry but it’s an undesirable reputation. There’s always the short play, in the moment, and the longer play, over time and over reputation. The discipline to make the longer play will lead to greater success, I think.

At the end, talked to a couple, the guy less hot than the girl, and the girl just gorgeous. Huge breasts on a very small and petite frame. I would’ve loved to f**k her. They’re relatively new to the world, so I took some contact info. Unlikely to go anywhere but some seeds have been planted. She’s the sort of girl who might look “okay” in street clothes and then turn out to be stunning naked.

Fair # of mismatched partners with girls much hotter than the guys.

Kinda miss the girl from the last big party, who I saw again once and has gone silent. Beautiful sexual chemistry with her, more than with anyone since Short Dancer, probably. Such quick sexual chemistry. Am I the same for her, or am I just some guy she f**ked? I’ll ping again in another week but going anywhere with her is doubtful. Relationships end, so I hope I’m top of mind when/if hers does.

The last couple events I have attended without a direct date, and that is doing this on hard mode. Harder mode anyway. Bringing a date leads to a higher probability of success.

I mean to write less but the inner voice speaks too loudly.

Learning

* Chat with people.

* Demonstrate competence. I learned how to do BDSM from a combination of online tutorials and guides and in-person. If you’re at an event and see someone who is doing it well, watch what they do and try to imitate it. Even ask them how they learned or what they were thinking about doing (after they’re done… never interrupt. Watch but don’t interrupt.)

* Play the long game.

Dating sex positive and non-monogamous girls… and a ramble about the game

A player asked about the last FR… I told him that some of the women at that sex party were quite hot, but they were also looking for guys who are already good at what the women want… like, if you’re a guy and you’re not willing to do some mfm, they’re just not going to be super interested, and some women who’ve had a taste of what’s possible will not date vanilla guys anymore. Instead they want to date guys who can manage jealousy and who have underlying sex skills… those guys are not readily available commodities… so when hot women find guys who can make these peak experiences happen, some of them are happy to have found their male unicorn. Lots of guys will pretend to be non-vanilla and non-monogamous in order to get the lay, but few of them truly are, so women get tired of trying to separate out the pretenders from the real thing.

The player said

Can you just clarify this? These chicks wouldn’t date a vanilla guy just because he has not had experience/not into MFM? Really? I’m trying to gauge the value of MFM in my mind.

The hot women I’m thinking about would likely be open to dating a vanilla guy who is genuinely up for MFM, but a lot of vanilla guys will be excited for FMF (obviously), yet they’ll balk at the other way around. They don’t reciprocate, and reciprocation is a key aspect of human social life and bonding. A lot of guys are also sexually open minded in theory, but when the time for practice arrives, they change their mind and want exclusivity, etc. One woman I know searched for a primary partner and dated like 4 – 6 guys from the internet (not simultaneously), all of whom said they were cool with non-monogamy… then told her they wanted an exclusive relationship. She is a poly s**t so she dumped each. A lot of kinky/non-mono women find vanilla guys useless, cause it’s easy to waste weeks/months on them, just to discover that in reality, no, the guy doesn’t really want to be non-monogamous, although he’s fine with some fmf threesomes… just like every guy straight guy alive.

On the other side of the equation, some monogamously-inclined girls don’t want mfm. Why? If a woman really wants a conventional monogamous boyfriend who is going to be into her, mfm sets that goal back, and most men who will go for mfm will also seek fmf… a small number of guys are into hotwifing/cuckolding or whatever it may be called, but those defective guys are pretty rare.

Continue reading “Dating sex positive and non-monogamous girls… and a ramble about the game”

The game’s endgame and picking up a girl at a private party

Got an invite to a huge private sex party… remember how I wrote, “game can be thought of a little bit like chess in that for good players the first 5 – 10 moves are memorized calls and responses and gamed out… the interesting stuff happens midgame.”? This is an endgame story, making it less valuable than mid-game stories, but I wrote most of it for a private group, so I figured I’d tell the rest…

At the party, I talked to a gorgeous, short girl who used to be a high-end escort and probably had income that put her in the 99%… not a great conversationalist or was on drugs… some other things about her stood out but are too private to share… asked for kiss when she left, and she said “maybe later.” In normal dating asking for the kiss is a bad move, but in this environment it’s the way to go.

Did an MFM with a couple I know… read Yoylo for an MFM example story… I have also laid out a threesome bluepint… this one happened because I’ve known them both for years… she is a solid 7… he is probably a male 8… he finds it hard to find the right women, and they are put together well. He’s had some of mine before, so it’s all good… I have spoken many times about reciprocity and balanced equation, and our equations are well-balanced. There is not a “game” story here… or if there is, it is buried in the years… we are all casual friends who spent some time catching up, then had a theeway. Very intense one, too. Whatever “game” was involved happened long ago.

Much later, I was about to leave and crash, but I saw this girl and had to say hi to her… so I got to chatting with this chick and she had great vibes, nice but not astonishing face, and just the best body. 25 or so… we chatted for a while and she noticed my paddle… asked if I would spank her… of course, baby… we found our way to a more private back area, away from the crowds, and she was so cute (great, top level super feminine energy) and responsive. Some spanking/paddling, light choking/hair pulling… things moved fast and she was broadcasting horniness… so I kept going forward, checking in with her at appropriate places… and wow. I didn’t think I could rise to the occasion but did it (sometimes verbalizing “I’m not sure I can have sex again” helps me relax into it), and sex with her was amazing… amazingly fun. Time between “Hi” and f**king was… 20 minutes? 30 minutes? I don’t know. It was almost too fast, even for me… I think she’d been marinating in the environment and socializing for a long time and yet hadn’t been approached, or properly approached (later I found out that she knew a guy there, a friend of friend, who had been chasing her, but she wasn’t into him). Or, right girl, right time? I want to give her an 8 due to her body just being packed in all the right ways and feeling fantastic but probably a high 7. Everything about her felt and seemed right. Instant chemistry is rare. She seemed almost grateful to have me inside her, which is a turn-on. Hope she comes out… we talked about that, but she might be an “in the moment” girl who disappears later. I hope not.

Like I said, it happened almost too fast… I wanted more time to play with her body, to get to know her, but her sex temperature was so high that I felt I couldn’t not. We talked about some logistical things… “feminine energy” isn’t discussed as much as it should be. Hers was off the charts. She was like crack. Other girls should take lessons in feminine energy and sounds from her. F**king her was great. She reminded me of Short Dancer, and it has been years since I have felt that way.

Did not see the former sex worker 9 again.

I’m also a re/tard in some ways… my stated goals are different than what I pursued last night, so there’s that.

I wasn’t going to turn this into a blog post at first, cause I don’t think there’s anything new to learn from it… but then I realized that that is the lesson… I’ve been building ecosystem/connections for many years, and staying in pretty good shape, and it came together. Maybe I could point out that even s**ts often want to know the guy/guys they’re sleeping with… more often than not they do… the first woman came around not because I was a random but because I wasn’t. Overall I think I’ve contributed more value to the community than I’ve taken from it, and that was reflected in the private sex party. It was reflected in the invite itself. It was reflected in the people I knew there. It was reflected in the fact that I knew how to be once I was there, and knew where to flirt and where not to. Where to push forward and where to hang back. The interesting things happen in the midgame… but this was the end game… the value had already been built. The reputation was in place. The beautiful 8 hadn’t been approached, or properly approached, and she was ready, so I went for it… I was wandering through the orchard and spotted what might be a ripe fruit… I climbed up… checked it out… turned out to be ripe… and it was good. I had the skills she wanted, and she… well, she had what I wanted. The fruits of the network.

Tried not to drink too much and succeeded… exhausted the next day… I feel a little too old for this shit in some ways to be honest. I still feel kinda off track… my forebrain and hindbrain continue to disagree… am I turning into a chick or something? Hope not.

This FR is late game…. it’s about the building of value and discovery and connections over many years. Very few guys can just walk into something like this… you have to know the players involved. The mid-game for this kind of thing can be read in detail here… if your version of the book is more than six months old, get the latest one, because I’ve been updating it in response to other guys’s questions and observations… thanks to other guys who have sent me their learning and their field reports… they have made the book better/stronger than it would have been otherwise. FRs that deal only with the first couple interactions with a woman often aren’t interesting because they’re pretty well gamed out. FRs that cover end game, like this one, often aren’t interesting because there’s not a lot of value building or practice taking place… the value building took place in the past. I’d learned to be in the right place at the right time with the right attitudes and that was rewarded. This is a study about reaping wheat, not about growing it (much harder to grow than to reap, or to eat the food made from the wheat). I was surprised by the girl at the end and the speed with which it happened. But the conditions for that had been created over many years. I’ve had this happen before… but this girl was just f**kin hot, and she’s relatively to new to the scene/community. In some ways I got lucky, but you know how the harder you work, the luckier you seem to get? It’s like that.

Magnum has different FMF report too.

Guys building a big non-monogamy ecosystem

A player I know has discovered a coven of group sex and open relationship people near him. Some of the players are quite wealthy and have oriented their lives around this activity, buying yachts and getting hotel rooms and pimping out their living spaces to make it all happen (the yacht thing isn’t necessary, but I guess it’s a nice touch if you have the cash… I don’t, and I don’t really move in those circles… though I know they exist… so don’t get caught up in that side alley, whining about income). The player almost can’t believe this thing exists, but I can believe it because I have seen versions of it. Non-monogamy and sex clubs become an ecosystem. It’s possible to rack up incredible numbers through this, if it is a guy’s goal to do so.

Let me try to explain it, from my interactions… I have been at the periphery of this kind of thing, and sometimes the center, but have not been interested in going all the way, into making this the sole and entire focus of my non-work life. A lot of the guys at the top, doing penthouses and boats, are quite a bit older and as a result are not with the chicks who most interest me, but that is not universally true. These guys (and some women)….

* Go to clubs/events most weekends, or on vacations. There’s an international circuit of people doing this.

* Network with the people they meet. It’s not that much different than business networking except it’s more emotional and obviously instead of business relationships you are probing, establishing, and maintaining sex relationships. The social aspect of this is important and easy to do poorly. Outsiders think you just show up, bang/mate, then separate, like lizards or something. Not really, not if you’re doing it well, and outside of pornography sex has emotional or psychological components (most of the time).

* For guys who want younger/hotter chicks, the trick is finding them. They do show up… they are just uncommon and in demand, obviously. Guys can maintain decent sexual value into their 40s and even early 50s, if they want. For most women, SMV begins to drop seriously at 30, and almost all by 35. Supply-demand is real.

* When you have more girls than you can handle (it happens) and are friends with more couples than you can handle, you begin doing parties as the logical next step. Many activities have “levels,” with the advanced levels being occluded from novices and even intermediates. For parties, a guy might know six eight ten twelve interested people, sometimes more, invite them over and suddenly you are the host and you have the status that comes with being the organizer. Leaders have status… it’s polite to thank the host. The host need above-average emotional intelligence, which is lacked by most many guys.

* If you have the money and space to host great parties people will like you better. Chicks are super sensitive to environment and emotional cues, while most guys will happily f**k hot chicks in any available conditions. Dirty sheets, plates in the sink, whatever, guys will happily f**k a hot chick who will bend over there. Chicks are much more attuned to lighting, cleanliness, mood, etc. So if you can just buy the booze and weed, set up the mirrors / beds, get superior lighting (Philips Hue, don’t cheap out here if you can avoid it), etc., then people will be more likely to want to attend your things. So hosting can be the next step, for guys who are established in the community and have a female partner who is aligned with the guy.

* Really rich guys will buy boats, penthouse apts, penthouse hotel rooms, etc. It’s not necessary (you don’t need to be wealthy to do this), but these guys are out there.

You don’t need to be wealthy, but renting space, arranging things, etc., can cost money. So I don’t want to imply that it’s easy for poor guys to do this. Overall, most guys aren’t determined to maximize the amount of sex they have, and you can tell as much from their behavior. Most people can’t connect what they say with what they do… the successes in this world almost always can (or have lucky genetics).

The chicks who have these fantasies and desire these things will like guys who can activate their fantasies and execute them in a safe and controlled environment. Most chicks also need aftercare, etc. They want to bond, not just be sex toys who are going to be discarded after the event. Many guys wrongly neglect aftercare, cuddling, etc. Guys need to do a LOT of things right, here, if they are to get in and stay in. Listen to chicks and you will learn that many guys do basic things wrong. Aftercare is one example I’m thinking about right now. Read through Red Quest and you will come across many others.

Some other things about this big ecosystem…

* Chicks vary in their propensity to engage…. some are super scared, some are pretty eager. Find the eager ones and reassure the scared ones. Obviously a lot of chicks have group sex fantasies, are curious about how other people f**k, etc., but will not explore those without guys to guide them. Be that guy and find other guys who are non-judgmental and encouraging. Some girls can be converted over time.

* If you fully enter and connect to this world you might be astonished by the fact that it is larger than you know, though most people are smart enough not to advertise they’re into it, since the social judgment is too intense. Smart chicks know that their sexual reputation is linked to their ability to marry high-income men, so they don’t want to be known, in most cases, as a girl who does these things, because that will impact their ability to marry and have children, when they want those things. You’ll also find business connections in the places you might not expect to find them. Things that start about business often end up being about sex… and things that start about sex often end up being about other things, like business. People are made to network with others who share common interests. God can be a common interest in churches… sex can be a common interest… and people who form sex communities often trust each other and therefore want to do business together too.

* The people in this world are pretty discriminating, especially when it comes to guys. Many more guys want to get in it than chicks. Even guys who think they want to get in, typically can’t handle it. Getting into this world requires people in both sexes who can handle it. Lots of people (guys included) form quick emotional attachments to their sex partners and then want to monopolize those partners… even if they fantasize about this world, it doesn’t work. People who are doing events will monitor newcomers for negative and positive traits and guys (or chicks) who can’t handle it will not be invited into the higher tiers of things. Sufficiently badly behaved people will be booted, although this is rare. Sex clubs are much smaller world than conventional bars, and word about badly behaved people will get around fast, leading to doors that swing shut.

In life you are always being judged and always proving yourself.

Real question is…… eventually……. how do you want to live your life?

Most people who learn about this world discover they do not want to spend their lives immersed in it. Just like most guys seem to have about four to five good years in the game… but the people who do keep it up can have experiences few others do.

This no doubt sounds like a lot of work, but… a lot of work compared to what? I know people, even employed people, who spend 20+ hours per week on video games and Instagram, etc. Is this a worse hobby? Think about the things people you know do when they’re not working… is this better? Worse? Would you rather be f**king or leveling up your level 29 wizard? Would you rather be getting beers with “friends” from the office or f**king a hot chick?

These things are not very compatible with very young child family life, and a lot of people with kids are too tired to pursue them. As the kids get older it becomes more possible to pursue them but most people in western countries let themselves go, get fat, and get outcomes consistent with their weight, fatness, lifestyle, and sugar intake.

A lot of guys with high numbers also don’t have consistently high quality, so there’s that.

Some guys spend a lot of time building up their non-monogamy ecosystem and once the machine starts, it purs along. I’m trying to help guys get started and to understand the underlying principles at work. I think the book does that well.

Where I’m on-board with alternative lifestyles and where I deviate

Someone wrote about their experiences,

>>I bailed on the SF hippies… and you overlap with them in many ways… but are wiser, as I see it.

I have some overlap, but the SF hippies have no knowledge of history (communes and free love have been tried), no knowledge of evolutionary biology, no knowledge of economics, and no knowledge of game theory. Their ideology is usually one that allows them to attempt to take value without offering similar value in return. The minute you get into that kind of situation, things fall apart fast (this is why socialism doesn’t work: lack of reciprocity and encouraging people to take without giving). Evolutionary biologist Geoffrey Miller describes SF hippie weaknesses, “Polyamory Is Growing—And We Need To Get Serious About It.” The hippies, consciously “alt” type people… are not serious about it. Fine, good for them. I have run into them now and then, then go about my business, ignoring them. The hotter women… almost all have some sense of their value, and they don’t want to give that away. The low-value women are fine with the hippie thing.

I DO want to make the world a better place. I DO think monogamy doesn’t work for many people. I DO want to have ecstatic experiences. So we have some things in common. But I am too pragmatic for SF hippies.

Marriage today is a problem because it assumes lifelong partnership and a stay-at-home wife who should get half the resources in the event of divorce. Today, most partnerships are not lifelong and most wives don’t stay at home or maintain themselves or submit to their husbands sexually or be truly monogamous. Marriage lets women take without giving… like socialism, it fails for a lot of people. So the whole marriage contract makes no sense, for anyone who thinks about it for ten minutes.

I think kids are important, but marriage is bad… almost no one is thinking this through. Most people maybe need the romantic mystification to have kids. They believe the lifelong love myth, long enough to have a couple kids, then they get divorced, which is catastrophic for the individual, but maybe good for the group and society and the selfish genes.

So I am thinking about how to have shorter-term pair bonds, how to have kids, how to negotiate those kinds of things, but without the marriage expectation.

Most chicks have not thought about any of this stuff either. When I introduce a chick to non-monogamy, she can later get the rest of my payload and my theories / interests, cause she is starting to get it, to see things differently. Sort of like how pickup and dating advice from pickup artists leads a lot of guys into the Red Pill. It starts at sex… then it leads towards other places. Political and societal places.

I don’t think I have all the answers… I am trying to follow the thread.

I have also been called calculated and similar things by chicks… the chicks are probably right. It is a downside to the analytic mindset. I don’t have as much of the passionate, headlong rush in me.

Stability and novelty/pleasure are probably just not going to happen fully together. Possible solutions to this problem interest me.

Home Friend, again, and the cycle guys choose

(This one happened a few months ago, so it’s far out of date… wrote it at the time and then forgot to post.)

Home Friend. Remember her? Barely? Me too. She swung back around for a c**k ride, which seems to be happening every couple months… I wouldn’t mind her being more reliable but I do like her naked and bent over for me, so what can I say? Except that I am not doing the things I keep saying I need to do.

This time I spent some time talking to Home Friend, and it turns out that she has been dating a guy (I think she began dating him a while ago). They became “official” at some point, relatively recently I believe, since she was not in town for quite a while (she is vague on when precisely she got back… fine with me… I am her side piece and she is mine, or one of mine, it seems). It turns out that she was again with a guy…. and this time the guy made it official. “Official.” The last one might have too? I can’t keep all of the chick crazy stories straight. This one was apparently f**king another girl, and she figured this out by showing up at his place unannounced and the other girl was there. He wouldn’t let her in, and she is not a total idiot, so she figured it out.

She was angry while she was telling me the story….. then she started crying! This is after the f**king, during which she was not crying, fortunately, because I am not a fan of crying chicks, although dating chicks means you will deal with tears. Things like this have happened before. I come across as sufficiently non-judgmental that chicks pour out their hearts and thoughts to me…… and they are pretty red pill most of the time…… and usually the chicks are missing an important piece of the puzzle, just like young guys who don’t understand why they can’t get the top chicks. My guess is this guy did the classic thing a lot of players seem to do,

  • He likes some chick well enough. Most importantly, she is getting naked for him regularly.
  • He really also likes f**king the chick regularly.
  • He also really wants to f**k other chicks, if he can (a big “if”).
  • He knows chick #1 will turn off the sex if he won’t make it “official.”
  • So he makes it “official” while continuing to f**k other chicks, or trying to. Home Friend has a pretty conventional girl mind… she’s not proven susceptible to alternate mental frameworks.
  • “Official” girlfriend eventually figures it out. Or the side chick tells her. There are any number of ways for this to blow up.

I have been talking about non-monogamy as a way of getting around some of these problems. Some of you readers say that guys who do “official” girlfriend thing are idiots, and maybe probably that’s true, but I am also that idiot, right now, and I am doing things I really shouldn’t be doing, so yeah. The right thing is easy to do when you are debating it on the internet but sometimes harder to do when you confront it in real life.

I digress. Home Friend seemed surprised that I told her a lightened, edited, sanitized version of the above. I don’t think she’s ever thought of it this way before. Most chicks…… they don’t understand the lives and minds of guys. Guys don’t get chicks either. We are not reaching across that divide.

At times I will point out to Home Friend, and chicks like her, that the guys she likes most are also… tall, good-looking, have good social sense (approach her, escalate her, etc.), and they are probably applying those same good attributes to other girls, so why doesn’t Home Friend go choose a guy who is shy, likes her, and is maybe a little scared to approach her, or intimidated by her? She didn’t seem to understand why she would do this. Her language skills are improved but she doesn’t read nuance well… I think if they had been better she would have said what some chicks have admitted, that they want hot challenging guys and not really the guys who are available to them. They want guys +1 or more above them in sexual market value (SMV). The story of modern dating is all about SMV mismatch. She is a young hot girl so not many guys are above her in SMV… but she is not the hottest girl, so she’s stuck thinking about the hottest of the hot girls. She is stuck until she changes, or until she finds a guy who’ll do the things she wants. She might find him! She is hot, like I said. But she is also kind of placid, so she is only really choosing from the guys who come onto her, from what I can tell (I have seen almost nothing of her behavior in the wild). She uses alcohol to free herself and do some hookups, I believe, which leave her feeling bad and empty in the morning.

I said it the last time, but this is the last time. With her anyway. I need to not be like the player she found with another girl in bed! It will happen to you if you pursue that route.

Let’s talk about another player. I have been talking to a player who is going to a sex club pretty soon, or maybe he has already been? He seems to have uncovered a sex demon woman and it looks like he might bang one of her (attractive) friends as well. This is not a widely-appreciated part of f**king high-libido, no-jealousy women: you can end up f**king a lot of chicks, sometimes without trying very hard. She may end up being your wing woman. Like, when I was seeing Ms. Slav properly, I ended up in the double digits of random affiliated f**ks, and that is with me not even trying all that hard. Home Friend is part of the Ms. Slav run-off. And she is very attractive! Flakey as hell, but attractive. If a guy manages to snare a chick like this and wants to have a lot of casual sex with different women…… he can do it. I have been through this cycle a number of times. I think it’s great… it solves some of the problems I mention above. The trick is finding an attractive woman who is into this. They exist, but there aren’t a huge number of them, and they are often already tied to a primary partner.

Some of them also haven’t learned about consensual non-monogamy. The player I’ve been talking to seems to have a woman like this, who is learning about it from him. I hope he’ll write a field report about his experiences. I also don’t know where he’ll end up going.