European sex club report

(I’ve been talking to this player on Twitter. English isn’t his first language. This is his story, but he wants to remain anonymous right now.)

Sex-positive environments are a unique place: you know that the people there are there for couple of reasons only. They want to open the release steam valve of their perversions (master and slaves, FemDom and all that kind of “beat me” stuff – how a man can feel pleasure in getting kicked in the balls is real hard for me to understand) or to experience hedonism in full colours, and boy, it is fun.

I’ve previously been to a sex-positive club and I was shocked by what happens in these parties: my idea was a bunch of 50 years old that swap their old hag for a bit of “fresh meat” thrill, but I was surprised to see young and attractive girls together with a bunch of equally attractive males. If you have to orgy, orgy hard Daddy.

In these parties, since it’s obvious that everybody is there for sex, you would think that you just walk to a hot chick, pull her hand on your cock and let the magic happens, well, that’s not really what happens…in theory.

Friday night I left for a famous party in Berlin at a famous place that organize these events: the dress code was fetish, so you have bunch of people all leathered up or basically in their underwear – what a magical filter to have for attraction, uh – I love to wear a bad biker outfit with my vest open – this is a form of peacock since 95% of men inside will have terrible bodies, eating too much sugar and drinking beer, if you drink, stick to whiskey, pal.

As a PUA, since you know what kind of social environment you are entering into, you can prepare and out maneuver any kind of competition thanks to game knowledge.

The biggest DHV you can have in these places is to have a good looking girl under your arm, but if you don’t, GAME will be fundamental.

I approached directly a stunning hot blonde in the dungeon and after she blushed, and she immediately shit tested me “Who are you with here.” I will get shit tested on my thirstiness couple of times in this interaction but never on my frame, interestingly enough girls are worried more of thirsty betas than a guy willing to spank her with a whip, frame, uh?

In these places is normal to find hot girls who need to let their slut side go and party hard, ending up in a gangbang or getting tied up to a wooden X and whipped till their body turn red – I replied with something like I parked my subs outside to a pole (do not say something like this in a different environment) and we started vibing: me stacking about her leather outfit (leather stripes going around the body) and then she introduced me to her friend… again, game aficionados would know what a cockblock is but in this context you can use at your advantage (in my case I said who was the master and who slaps who and started spike them both), and my wing comes at the right time but he almost doesn’t notice the set, yet the timing is amazing and I DHV him right in about his crazy shibari skills, while he story tells the friend. I take the chance to take my target to smoke a cigarette (I don’t smoke, the plan was just isolation).

A lot more spikes and locations changes (I have a mini flogger that she wanted to try while bent over a couch), then I asked her to go upstairs to play in privacy (code name for “let’s go fuck”) and she accepts… I take her hand and lead upstairs to a semi dark room with a big bed in it, a little bit of kino and flogging and I decide it’s time to go big or home, I pull my dick out in front of her face and she reaches for it, BOOM +1!

I take her number and her friend is still downstairs with my wing, who had already used the load while an old lady was gang banged by 6 guys with her husband watching… I owe him a lot for going through this. Once the girls reconnect downstairs, her friend says she got something and proceed to speak German – my girl says she will be back in a bit and they disappear together in the toilet (I suspect ecstasy, but who am I to judge?) I will never see her again.

Together with my wing we venture again in the dungeon and he introduces to a tranny that he knows who knows a ton of people, HE/SHE (whatever floats your boat) introduces me to the friend, a blonde chick next to that who immediately notices the flogger (I swear, how many chicks these days know what it is and what is it for) and teases me if I ever used it, I simply reply that if she behaves good with me maybe I will show her.

In reality, the chick is there only to cocktease since her boyfriend is the big guy at the door and she won’t do anything without him…oh well, at least I tried.

I also opened an older woman, because she had a busty body that made me very horny. An interesting thing here for players is couples.

A lot of couple will play with you if you have something to offer, maybe you have a Spartan warrior body, maybe you have an hot girl with you, maybe they just buy your frame, whatever, but a lot of couples will actually participate in games, in this case, as soon as this woman told me “I would like to play with you but I need to ask my husband” I understood that this one was either a total strike with a cuckoo or he would have just dismissed me because of their couple agreement.

Every couple has agreements like “I do the garbage you do the dishes” but they also have agreements on sex clubs, like “we must both bang – if you want to bang I select the man – we go together we live together ” etc. etc.

Turns out the man is a great guy, I started throwing DHVs on how I live life on my terms, after this trip I will go into the woods for a mini survival training (men love this, I’d love to meet people like this too where I’m from) he said they are busy tonight but he number close me to politely dismiss me, I guess their agreement was if you bring a guy, I must fuck what girl he brings – ahh, swingers, you gotta love them.

(Red Quest again: In my experience it’s more common for this sort of thing to happen in circumstances where you, the guy, already have a good reputation and reception. I don’t know how well known this player in this club or scene. I’ve also been told that Europe is better for sex clubs than anywhere else in the world. Most of the time, the sex clubs work when you are bringing a girl to the club. This player might be extremely high value on his own or have a reputation there. )

Combining non-monogamy, game, and sex clubs to unlock abundance and commodification

A player I know says he was talking to a wing about the sex clubs and some of his ecosystems,

It seems that the feeling now for me is that when you channel a girl’s promiscuous side, they are subconsciously signalling to you that they are not a good choice for children due to paternity issues. The other feeling I’m getting is that all women are exchangeable – you can just trade and find a new one that suits you better. I’ve never felt like that. The talk about “Frame” seems to center on controlling a woman’s sexuality … but after going to a sex party I don’t really care what the women does if I don’t want children with her. Some very new feelings for me and not very palatable for the average red pill or tradcon commentator.

I’m not as sure about the good choice for children, cause some women going to sex clubs still want children and have (should have) the forebrain, conscious ability to be monogamous with a man in order to conceive. A lot of men are not as eager for these women as primary partners, however. But “The other feeling I’m getting is that all women are exchangeable – you can just trade and find a new one that suits you better. I’ve never felt like that,” that is accurate and true to my experience. I feel for this player, cause I’ve been feeling like that for a while… and I’ve actually become kind of weary of that feeling… which doesn’t make a huge amount of sense but it’s true. It’s the thinking behind why women hate the demystification of romance and mating offered by the game. When players build value and learn attraction triggers and game, we can move to the abundance mentality that is much-discussed online. The non-monogamy raises and increases the abundance.

This only works for the guy with some underlying value, some game, and a functioning environment (big city). If a guy has true abundance… if he has more than he can handle… he’s not so worried about controlling women’s sexuality… she should be worried about controlling her own sexuality in order to entice him. Women over time become more worried about controlling his attention and resources. When guys online write about “making her chase,” this is what they’re talking about… but it only really works after the woman has invested, not before. For a non-elite man, trying to “make her chase” when she knows nothing about you is foolish, because there is nothing for her to chase. When she figures out you are not a commodity guy, then there is.

Most women are the same… but not all of them… it takes a lot of experience to recognize the genuinely non-commodity woman. Most guys going on about their angel who isn’t like other girls… don’t realize she’s not an angel… she is like other girls… he’s just blinding himself to the obvious. Until he finds her in bed with another man, divorced, etc.

To me… the sex clubs shift female sexuality TOWARDS commodification, which can be a benefit to guys. This is what the “LOL cuck” guys miss, because they can’t imagine a different world from the scarcity one they inhabit. The player I’ve been talking to is seeing the world in a different way, based on experiences that are foreclosed to most guys. He is now seeing the secret society, which most guys don’t (can’t) do.

Sex club culture and socializing there

I heard from a player who went to a sex club for the first time, and he found about 70 people who were decently attractive, yet “there was no one that either of us was ‘wow’ over (a lot of the girls were still a bit chubby for my taste) but no one was terrible looking” (his girl is very hot, which I want to state for context… I have seen pics). His experience of the attractiveness level is decently typical… there are not a lot of wow girls, like solid 8s who are 18 – 25, at sex clubs. There are some but they are just not super common in life or at clubs… depends on the venue and night as well. If you bring an 8 and another 8 shows up, they will often gravitate to each other, as like finds like. In my experience there are not a lot of true 8s in life in general.

He also found that some people seemed unsure. At the clubs, some couples will appear to keep to themselves, because they don’t know the social etiquette. Since most other people are scared of approaching… in that kind of environment I am often the one who is initiating. Yes, some venues have rules stating that women must approach, etc., but in the real world that means they want guys with decent social skills who aren’t cruising. At bad events, socially retarded guys will just go from chick to chick, flagrantly hitting on each one and poisoning the atmosphere. We’ve all seen socially retarded guys and what they can do to a party, assuming they don’t get kicked out altogether. Think about those guys and how much worse they are at a sex club, and that is why the rules exist.

Especially if you start out talking guy to guy, you can chat with other people, as many women won’t initiate (players obviously know this). If you have a girl who is bolder than typical, you can encourage her to talk to other girls… girls know how to compliment another girl’s dress or hair or jewelry, they can talk about that for a minute or two. Common conversation topics are whether this is their first time, how they found the club or venue, etc. Really basic openers are fine, like “I saw you two and wanted to come say hi.” Even topics like whether they’ve fantasized about this kind of thing, etc. can work, in the right situation. Normal chitchat about jobs, etc. is also fine… like with normal dates, some normal chitchat that shows you’re not a lunatic and some sexual spikes/innuendoes show that you know what’s up. Read Krauser’s books for detail on this. Both normal topics and sexual spikes/innuendoes are fine and should be used together.

Most people are uncomfortable, scared, and don’t know the etiquette, so there can be a lot of discomfort at first. Many people who look closed off are just uncertain, so, if you can do some normal socializing, you will ease their mind… there is a popular imagination thing that anyone at a sex club is a crazed sex maniac, and you mostly want to avoid that impression. When you’re chatting, you can also do some classic Mystery/Neil Strauss set merges. Talk to one couple, excuse yourself to refresh your drink, talk to another couple, and then introduce couple 1 to couple 2. I am not an expert at this as I’m not naturally the life of the party, but a lot of people will appreciate some social lubrication, even if it is a bit clumsily done (I can be a bit clumsy).

The initial phase also seeds the possible later switches. I’m usually more eager to chat with the attractive women who I’d like to see more of later than with the less attractive women (and if the girl you’re with wants to chat with a couple, you should try to make that happen or help her make it happen). Women are often more interested in switching with someone they have had even one or two social interactions with, than they are with someone they have never spoken to (this maybe seems like a small thing to guys, but to a woman even one or two small social interactions can help you break the barrier between her and the outside world… one or two social interactions = this guy isn’t crazy = this guy might be safe = this guy is okay to have sex with).

For women, much more than for men, sex is an intensely social act. Many more men like anonymous hookups than women. Many men will pay sex workers for anonymous sex acts, and no women will do the same. Even the ultra-rare older woman who pays a man usually wants that payment to be embedded in a story about her vacation or whatever.

So, at the start of the club night, the party, whatever, demonstrate that you have a little bit of social acuity, that you can make small talk, that you’re embedded in a social world and not a murderous psycho loner of the kind all women have an instinctive aversion to. Will you see some chicks have sex with a man they’ve never spoken to, once the chick gets into her sex zone? You will. Is that the most regular thing you’ll see? No. Make the smarter moves.

When things start to heat up, you can sometimes invite another couple into the separate sex space, or onto a couch, or wherever, if you like them and you want to access that kind of energy. During the sex itself, the physical space matters… if there is a couple or a woman you’re interested in, try to have sex with your girl next to them… then, if you want to trade, the physical proximity is there. Girls will often touch other girls, especially… it’s also possible to see if you can touch the other girl a little, just ask first. Sometimes the other couple will say yes (cool), sometimes they will say no (also good feedback). It’s common to have sex with your girl, relax for a while, and then switch with another couple for round two.

Like I said, it’s a weird environment, especially for people who have never been to parties before or who have only been to one or two. Everyone knows why they’re there, and everyone knows that they’re going to be f**king in front of each other real soon. The atmosphere is powerfully charged in a way that can be similar to a normal date, when you and the girl know you’re heading towards f**king, but it’s different when it’s in a group.

I have a general point about non-monogamy relationships that work, “Couples that last put each other first.” At parties, smart couples work on “putting each other first.” They will be the ones checking in with each other if they need to. If they have rules, they stick to the rules. Sometimes I will ask, “What are your rules at parties?” Many couples have not adequately thought through their rules… if so, it’s often better to let them sort out their problems on their own. Often the guy will be more eager to switch than the girl… sometimes the opposite happens.

If you are like me, you want to search for more upscale venues. The downscale venues will be really grim, like downscale strip clubs. Chances are that most of you have at least wandered into a downscale strip club… they are filled with guys who look like they just got on parole and haven’t been in civilization in years, and strippers so busted I wouldn’t even upvote them on a dating app. People who are overweight or underweight or have other problems with lifestyle. Like with everything else, different venues will have different vibes that attract different kinds of people. A long time ago that I am trying to project a kind of hipster Don Draper vibe, so I want a venue that is going to match that decently. Like I have said, if the venue is off, if the people are off, if anything else feels wrong, leave. If you are an experienced guy you should be able to tell the difference between “feels uncomfortable because I’m in a new situation” as against “feels uncomfortable because there is something f**ked up here.”

I took a few minutes to re-read this and I find that it feels a little autistic, because of the paint-by-numbers, algorithmic description of socializing, but sex clubs are their own little world that don’t have widely understood social rules, so maybe being super explicit is worthwhile. It took me a lot of observation to be able to understand what’s really going on (the game is arguably just social hacking + escalation + looking good), and it’s easy to miss what’s really going on. I did, at first. Many of them also have this bullshit equalism rhetoric, which is not really true… in reality, the more attractive people are more popular, just like you’d predict, and just like the pretty girls and handsome dudes are more popular. Most chicks are not going to be into guys who they don’t perceive as being at least on their level… just like the rest of the world. You can find exceptions, you can be the exception if you are charismatic and have other things going for you, but the principle is there for a reason.

I do think I’ve learned a lot just by trying to articulate the things I think I have learned/discovered. The process of attempting to teach and explain educates not just the reader but the writer. Downside for the writer is of course a lot of unpaid time and effort. But I had not thought about all of this until began to explain what’s happening and how the game fits into the sex clubs.

If you like this post, it is now part of the free book about how to incorporate non-monogamy and sex clubs into the game. I got started writing this post because of a Twitter direct message that kept going and soon I had the key points of this post. Outsiders seem to believe that sex clubs are giant orgies with no consent and everyone uncontrollably f**king everyone, but in reality female mate choice rules and is very important.

Book updated again

Despite my big talk about no Internet on the weekends, I updated the book. It’s now 45,000 words, about 50% longer than the initial draft. I added a few sections based on reader stories and feedback. The section about socializing at clubs is the most valuable addition, and I’ll add an independent post from it next week.

The book is open source. If you have any feedback or experience, let me know, particularly if you go to a sex club. Nothing beats real world experience.

I have still not found any book like this one. If you know of any, please tell me about them too.

Low-cut top girl: first sex club experience, plus DRAMA

I took Low-cut top girl to a sex club last weekend, and, to spoil the story some, it was an unusual experience because MS. SLAV WAS THERE. She came in after a while, that is. Low-cut top girl and I had finished our first round already, which is good. I’d previously checked with Ms. Slav, and Ms. Slav told me she was going to a private event the same night, so I figured I was all good… Ms. Slav likes to f**k other people but does not seem to like it when I do the same: I think she is struggling for that reason.

So: Low-cut top girl is extremely boring and average in a lot of ways, and therefore I accelerated the usual development path somewhat because I am not sure about keeping her around… we had a long talk about what sex clubs are like, why I like going, etc. I had to lead her through the whole thing… what are the peak experiences in your life… yes, many of them are sexual… so what if you could try to experiment with real peak experiences… you know how boring normal parties are, right?… it’s not that much fun to stand around drinking and making dumb remarks to people… at parties, everyone is thinking about what everyone else looks like naked… etc. She is pretty conventional, not just sexually but in every aspect of her life. Still like her in bed, though.

I spent a couple hours walking through why sex clubs are fun and what happens there. I gave her a book, More Than Two, that she didn’t read because she’s too busy on her phone and social media. I framed this as a fun thing we can try and if she doesn’t like it, she doesn’t like it. This low-stakes framing is useful for ambivalent first-timers.

The night of, I told her to come over about an hour before I actually needed her to come over, which was smart because she was late getting ready. She does clean up nice, though. We got to the club at about the right time, an hour or so before things got started… lots of new faces there, along with some old friends, which made for a good mix. On bad nights there are no attractive people there and the best thing to do is leave. That is not a good introduction but it can happen. I encouraged her to kiss another girl and she did, and they both loved it and were very bashful after. I also got the other couple’s digits, an important point for later.

I like putting on a show and Low-cut top girl has some exhibitionist tendencies, so we were among the first wave to hit the main f**k space. I took loads of time going down on Low-cut top girl and using toys on her before f**king her. Another couple (different than the first) joined us, and the girl caressed and kissed Low-cut top girl, which she liked very much. They wanted to go further but I told them about Low-cut top girl’s first night status, meaning we were going to stick with each other, which they respected. I finished sooner than I would have liked but I was very stimulated and did not hold back well.

Such is the game… we put underwear back on, left to get a drink, and as we were hanging out near the bar and THERE WAS MS. SLAV, coming right towards us, like a monster in a monster movie. We saw each other about the same time. Having had this kind of collision before, I knew that there is no way forward other than brazenly, so I introduced Ms. Slav to my “lover” Low-cut top girl, and I asked Ms. Slav what relationship term she prefers… she picked lover too… so I introduced her to Low-cut top girl like it was very normal. Ms. Slav had some guy and a girl I know with her.

Ms. Slav was obviously angry. Obvious to me, I mean. I asked about the other party and why they didn’t go to it, and some kind of girl drama had made them change plans. I had told Ms. Slav that I might hit the sex club that night… I just didn’t specify who I’d be with. Like most public clubs, it requires men to have dates on some nights, and I would never go to a club on a night that admits unattached single men. Realistically I can go without a date on a couple night, as I’m a known quantity and know how to behave, but I prefer to bring one. We did some more chit-chat, then I said that I didn’t want to stop them.

When I let Ms. Slav and her dates go to the bar, I took Low-cut top girl to another part of the club… I wish the music had been quieter. Low-cut top girl wanted to know all about Ms. Slav and why I hadn’t told her about Ms. Slav… I told her that I hadn’t decided about her yet, and that she hadn’t proven herself to me one way or another. This confused her… angered her… aroused her a little bit. She wanted to know how many other girls I’m seeing, that kind of numbers thing that is not very interesting to people in the scene but very intersting to people outside it.

She seemed to get over her shock and we eventually went back to the main room… Ms. Slav and her dates went to one of the more private rooms, I think. We had sex again. Unfortunately, some guy came over and put his hand on her while we were f**king… and I was like “HEY BUDDY, NOT NOW.” That is a major etiquette breach. After we were done I had to go find the hosts and tell them about it.

On the way back Low-cut top girl was full of questions about Ms. Slav. She was very surprised, I think, by how hot Ms. Slav is… really hot young girls are disruptive to the social order. I think Low-cut top girl knows that she can’t compete on beauty alone. She, in particular, also can’t compete on intellect/achievement, although she thinks she is very samrt. People who think they’re brilliant but are not are very tiresome, but Low-cut top girl and I have (mostly) been f**king and not doing too many other things where I would have to listen to her.

She was still drugged up from the experience, despite us not taking drugs. There is a “slip into a magic world” quality that a good group sex experience has. Despite the Ms. Slav encounter the club was pretty good and had some attractive couples in it, though that isn’t guaranteed, and a bad first experience can turn an unsure girl against the whole environment forever. She even said she was surprised that cool/attractive people were there.

She also said she’d be up for dates with another couple. We’ll see about that one from the club… I may try to hook her up w/ a couple Ms. Slav and I have seen… the girl in that couple is fantastically hot. Guy seems not bad either, and he’s a personal trainer (but not an idiot), while she also works in an aspect of the fitness industry. The first time I f**ked her, she asked after how old I am… I told her to guess… she missed by like ten years… she seemed put off when she found out the answer, but I just said the usual, “Are you having a great experience tonight?” She said yes and I was like, “That’s all that matters.”

Our first club experience could also be the impetus for letting Low-cut top girl go, as she is not a good long-term person for me: she is not as hot as I’d like, and she can be annoying to be around at times. But I am also weak… there is a private event weekend after this one. Depending on what happens, I may try bringing her to that too. If I can get her in the scene, I will not have to field requests for moronic brunches and drinks she wants to go to. I think she wants to show me off, but I am lacking in the time necessary to deal. I also don’t like how much she drinks… I think it compromises her life and her body. Low-cut top girl also told me that she KNEW I am a fuckboy. She was hitting me and laughing at the same time. She seemed not to know her own emotions. Going to a f**k club can be like hitting molly, without the molly.

On Sunday I talked to Ms. Slav… she seemed angry that I hadn’t told her about Low-cut top girl. I told Ms. Slav that she does her own thing, and I also do my own thing. She said I should at least tell her. I told her that she never asked. Which is true. She just about never asks me. I have been seeing her less frequently… does she think I have taken monastic vows? We’ve talked about reciprocity before, and that is something she finally acknowledges she has some problems with. There was no resolution… Ms. Slav is also still dealing with family issues. No real resolution there. “Drift away” could be the resolution.

Monday night, I got a long text from Low-cut top girl saying that she doesn’t want to see me anymore because she is falling for me and knows that I will break her heart. I read this as, “Most of the guys she’s dated are more into her than she is into them, and she can’t believe the opposite is happening.” Because I haven’t immediately fallen for her, she is becoming more enchanted with me. She said that she knew I was too confident because of the way I stopped her on the street. (Originally she said she admired me for the some reason/behavior).

Overall Low-cut top girl’s trajectory is consistent with some other trajectories I have seen in the last ten years… some chicks are up for this and some are not. I’ve speculated that as many as 75% of chicks are up to sex clubs, and I think Low-cut top girl is among them… but seeing Ms. Slav at her first event, and seeing that I have other lovers, is too much for her. She needs a more gradual admission. Most chicks are NOT like Ms. Slav, who just plowed right in.

Despite Low-cut top girl’s proclamation, though, I put her in a group text with the other couple from the club, and we all now have plans to get drinks this weekend. Low-cut top girl and I have not been communicating, except through that group text… so she may cancel, not show up, etc. Chicks are random, as we all know. Then again she might show up. She has kept jumping away from me, only to be reeled back in by my non-reactivity.

There is no cure to human drama… the drama just changes shape, depending on the social structure of the humans involved. I have chosen a different social structure than most people, and it is LOWER drama than most social structures (I think). But I have also refused to commit to a primary partner recently, and that increases the drama level. Ms. Slav is too young. I need to get out of this scene and make my way into something else. My actions don’t match my words, though. I’m doing the things I’m used to doing… it has also been harder for me to connect with the women I’ve been seeing. Peaches, strangely, may be the woman I’ve felt closest to. I didn’t say emotions or feelings have to make sense. That kind of statement is usually an excuse, and maybe it is here, but it is where I am right now.

Apologies if some of this story is poorly organized: I began it Sunday and have been updating it along with events and random thoughts. The free book also doesn’t cover a situation like a collision between two lovers at a sex event, because that is too rare and weird to worry about. 

The second open-relationship, non-monogamy girl

A few months ago I wrote about Libido Girl, who opened me up to consensual non-monogamy and the sex club world. With and without her, I probably had sex with 15 – 20 women in the first year we were together. Most weekends we’d go to sex clubs or parties. Sometimes we’d go on dates with other couples. That 15 – 20 number could have been much higher, but we found a core group of 10 – 14 girls and couples we’d see pretty regularly. Just like with regular dating, every person has a finite amount of time and energy. It’s often hard to find the best chicks online because the best chicks, who know what they want and compromise well, get a boyfriend and disappear. They might appear online after breakups or when they move to a new area, but there is a distinct “market for lemons” problem that has become more severe in recent years (in my view).

Libido Girl and I basically maxed out our potential social calendar. We went more than I would naturally. She likely had more action that year than I did, simply because she had the energy and endurance. Towards the end we drifted more apart, which is a hazard of a lot of sex with a lot of different people. Her job situation was not ideal, and solving it involved her moving. Even before she moved, I began doing some online dating. This was in the mid to late 2000s, when online dating worked better (in my view) and chicks were not yet glued to their smartphones. I did well at online dating and upped my photography skills considerably and quickly. I’m also a better writer than most guys and often attract girls who appreciate that.

Flaking and other bad behavior was common then, as it is now, but I went on dates and figured out quickly that I wanted to sleep with a woman a couple of times, then try and get her to go to sex clubs with me. A few of those chicks met Libido Girl. I took one very young, wild, hot, and stupid/flighty girl to a club and she must have fucked half a dozen guys there, of her own volition, then basically ghosted me the next week. Which was fine with me, because it’s important for a pair who go to the sex club to operate as a team; if a girl won’t be a member of the team, she is not a good candidate (another potential subject for a post).

The next girl, let’s call her #2, was not as crazily libidinous as Libido Girl, but she liked sex and was pretty uninhibited about it. She was much less forward and in personality terms she was feminine and giggly. She had nice energy and was another solid 7 or so. She didn’t lead in most things but was happy to follow. She was also very positive, which is good for me, but she did like experimenting with other girls and had a very open mind. I think she was somewhat bored with conventional dating and was 26 when I met her: old enough to have some experience but not yet desperate for kids. As Libido Girl left, Girl #2 moved into her place, and I more or less absorbed her into the friend groups Libido Girl and I had formed. #2 never got into going to the gym with me, but she was young and had good enough genetics for that not to matter at the time.

#2 and I essentially repeated the Libido Girl process: for a year and a couple months we had lots of sex with each other and went to parties and clubs two – three times a month. I probably slept with another 15 – 20 girls during that period. Guys with low partner counts are endlessly interested in numbers, and guys with high partner counts don’t care, and by the time Libido Girl and I were halfway through our partnership I stopped caring about counts, to the extent I ever did. I had figured out how to integrate non-monogamy into my life. Some women ran away from that, but many did not. When a guy truly has “abundance mentality,” getting new women can become easy. I learned it then, or fully internalized it.

Not all the women I slept with were incredibly hot, but none were dogs and all met my own internal quality standards. It was common for couples who were unacceptable to hit on #2 (and me), but we were good at politely turning them down.

By now many of the individual parties and club nights have faded into a blur. I know some people keep records of who they did and so on, but I’m not one of them and prefer to exist in the moment.

The most notable thing about #2 was, to me, how easily she slid into the scene. I have written before that most of my favorite girls didn’t require that much “game” or persuasion. #2 was like that. She was ready to find what I offered her. Things came to end when she wanted to move in with me and get more serious. Which I did not want. At all. Finding the sex-positive and non-monogamous worlds felt like unlocking a superpower.

If I found a girl like #2 today, I might be more susceptible to her arguments and desires. At the time, it felt like the whole world was sexually open to me, in a way that I almost got when I was in college and immediately after, but my skills and mindset hadn’t yet come together properly.

Jealousy and non-monogamy

In response to “Feedback request: What do you want to see in a book about non-monogamy and players?“, Nash asks about jealousy.

I would be interested in jealousy. I’d like to hear not only “it can be avoided,” but some EXAMPLES of how it has come up, show both sides, and then your best practices, some case studies of how you’ve managed that in YOURSELF and the GIRLS.

Jealousy… I don’t think it can be wholly avoided, for most guys. It’s like pain in the gym. You’re going to feel it sometimes. Most guys, including me, don’t like to see other guys railing their chick, even if the guy and chick are dating casually. In my view, some amount of jealousy, however small, can come up when a guy is in a situation where he’s going to nail another chick and his chick is going to get nailed by another guy.

Jealousy is adaptive because jealous guys have, historically, been more likely to ensure that a chick is bearing his child and not some other guy’s. If he’s carefully monitoring her and who she’s copulating with, he’s better able to ascertain that the baby is his and not Ughnah’s in the next tent over. The vast, overwhelming majority of human existence (99.9999%) occurred before reliable contraceptives and DNA tests, so we are not going to overcome our evolved instincts to do “mate guarding” (the term evolutionary biologists use). Not perfectly, not soon. This excerpt, from The Ape That Understood the Universe: How the Mind and Culture Evolve, further describes jealousy from an evolutionary perspective,

Throughout the course of our evolution, any trait that increased the chances that a man would end up investing in his own offspring, rather than the offspring of his good-looking next-door-neighbour, had a good chance of being selected. One such trait was jealousy – the kind of jealousy that would lead a man to keep a wary eye on his partner and the good-looking neighbour, and to do what he could to keep them apart.

For most guys, jealousy can’t be avoided. So if a guy wants to go down this path, he should know that some amount of jealousy is probably coming and he should be psychologically prepared to experience it, before it happens. A guy can rationally understand that he’s doing a quid pro quo: he’s going to get his, so she’s going to get hers. This helps, but the jealous response is more emotional than rational. It is very hard to overcome emotional response through rational thoughts, but it can be done and for many guys must be done.

If a guy is in a casual relationship, he knows (intellectually) that the girl is probably sleeping with other dudes. He also probably likes the deliberate ambiguity, the way he doesn’t ask her and she doesn’t tell him. So he can think to himself, “Maybe she’s only having sex with me,” while he knows… that’s probably untrue. How big a jump is it from knowing that intuitively to seeing it happen in front of you? A big one, emotionally, but a small one, intellectually, particularly if the guy is busy with another chick.

In addition, I deal with jealousy by focusing on the other chick. I wrote that Libido Girl, who properly introduced me to this world, made sure that I was having sex with another girl before she had sex with another guy. Smart girl. It is hard to get that angry while you are deep in another girl. She did check in with me after all four of us were done having sex, to see how I felt, and again later that night, and again the next morning. She was helping me to emotionally process what had happened.

Now I do something similar with most girls I’m introducing. I encourage them to go first, or for us to go concurrently. Often, we don’t have sex with other people on the first night we go to a club. I try to get them involved somewhat gradually, unless they are very gung ho, like Ms. Slav was.

Jealousy can be better overcome when you (the man) and your date agree to only bang other chicks together, or to only do a couple-to-couple swap. You don’t want her entering a threeway with another couple on her own volition. Problems often happen when another couple appears ready to swap, but then the other chick doesn’t want to do it. That way lies problems. A guy’s date must be willing to call off the sex, and both people in a couple have to look out for each other. If the other couple is not committed to equal swapping, the whole thing must stop. If the other guy is into it and his date is not, it all must stop. I have done this before. It’s like throwing the emergency brake.

Jealousy goes away over time, or a guy becomes acclimated to it. The first time a guy brings a date to his party, jealousy may be overwhelming. But as one becomes acclimated, it decreases. If someone is desperately scared of flying, a psychologist won’t get her on a plane right away. A psychologist will gradually ramp her up (first he’ll have her in a plane-like dwelling, then talk to her about it, etc.). Jealousy can be the same way. Now it’s normal for me to have sex in groups or trade couple-to-couple, so much of the jealous response is gone.

The other way I see people deal with jealousy is, realistically, boredom. Many couples have been together so long that they aren’t that sexually hot for each other anymore. For those guys, jealousy can be a bit useful, because it might make him want to “compete” for the woman he’s tired of listening to every day. Couples who have been together so long that they’re bored may feel less jealousy and, when they do feel jealousy, it may help them.

Another word about swapping: Guys who don’t want their chick to bang other guys are in for likely problems. If the chick is bisexual, she may be okay with seeking another woman, but other single women are called “unicorns” for a reason. This path is not impossible but it is also the route of much drama and nonsense. I’m not going to speak to it here because the reader can search for “unicorns and swingers” or “how do I find a unicorn” and read the endless shit written about this overdone topic.

To summarize, I don’t think there’s a single cure for jealousy because jealousy is evolutionarily adaptive. Jealousy can be overcome by applying rational thinking to an emotional sphere, which has its own problems (I’m aware of them). It can also be overcome by the guy focusing on his own experiences: when you’re in another chick, who has the energy to feel jealous? These methods are imperfect and there is no final “right” answer. That is why everyone discussing swinging, open relationships, and polyamory online discusses jealousy. If there were a simple solution, everyone interested would do it, ending the discussions. But there is no simple, one-size-fits-all solution, so it’s probably the most-discussed topic in non-monogamy. Many people dream about a mate who is loyal while allowing some screwing around. In reality this is a rare circumstance. Many people attempt to resolve this dilemma through covert cheating. Some are merely miserable. Others try non-monogamy, as I do.

I have never said (and will never say) that “non-monogamy is for everyone” or “group sex is great for everyone.” It’s not and it’s not.

I am saying, however, that given how most players like sexual novelty and variety, and most women in uncommitted relationships are going to be fucking around anyway, a guy should think about some of these strategies as a way of achieving better output for less work while also retaining the girl better.

It’s also surprising to me that more players haven’t figured this out. Maybe I’m lazier than some players and like having some of the filtering work done for me, in advance.
Some players are driven by the ego-based thrill of accomplishment, which is also fine, and that ego-thrill makes them chase one-night stands.

Some guys are also into jealousy. Jealousy makes them angry and competitive and then makes the sex better, because they want to do better than the other guy, or reclaim “their woman” and that kind of thing. These guys cite the Robin Baker book Sperm Wars and use the word “compersion.” That is not my experience but if this is you, great.

Jealousy is often most acute when your partner isn’t in the same room; someone who is happy to have sex with lots of different people often doesn’t really truly want their partners to do the same. But it can be easier to handle the jealousy if both parties are getting the same thing at the same time in the same place. That’s why many couples default towards couple-to-couple swaps: this balances the value equations. If the sex and value equation is unbalanced, jealousy becomes stronger. Many people who think they can handle their partners having sex with someone else, can’t. Going slowly during entry to the non-monogamy world can mitigate jealousy. Preferring couple-to-couple swaps can also mitigate it, and I’ve heard from other players exploring this world who have discovered the same thing independently of me. One such player, Black Ring, had a woman who has spent most of her life being very promiscuous and hoping from man to man (and woman to woman: she’s bisexual). He introduced her to sex clubs and gave her a framework for placing and thinking about her non-monogamy. She went out and f**ked a couple new guys. Then, when he did something similar with women, she couldn’t handle it. She seems to not have realized that Black Ring is a guy who can seduce new women, and when he did, she flipped, and broke it off with him. Eventually he reeled her back in, but he expected that she would be okay with him doing the equivalent of what she was doing.

To be sure, Black Ring likely didn’t manage the woman optimally. As a couple, they jumped too deeply into non-monogamy too quickly. Both also had other obligations specific to their individual lives that may have prevented deepening their relationship first. They should have gone more slowly, with her agreeing not to f**k random other guys, and both of them focusing more on the sex club and dating environments. Instead, she wrote checks she couldn’t cash, claiming that she would be fine with him having sex with other women. I’d guess that she didn’t realize he has other options, since most men don’t.

A logical man can also correctly point out she’s the one who made an agreement she couldn’t keep. While the logical man is correct, the psychologically astute man learns to manage women effectively and tries not to put women into situations they aren’t going to be able to handle. That’s why it’s wise to enter this world slowly and agree that if she gets one, he gets one, and if he gets one, she gets one, preferably all at the same time, to help manage jealousy. At work, the wise manager tries to internalize as much negative performance from his subordinates as possible. He asks himself how he could have handled the situation better, how he can handle it better next time, etc. The bad manager blames his subordinates as much as possible in order to keep his own mental image of himself optimal. It’s easy and correct to say that sometimes the good manager gets bad subordinates and sometimes the bad manager gets good subordinates, but the best managers conscientiously try to prevent bad situations and encourage all subordinates to do the best work possible.

When you’re introducing a woman to non-monogamy, encouraging her to only have sex with others with you is a good strategy that is more stable than most other strategies. Moving slowly is a better way to manage emotions than moving quickly. I want to emphasize that you, as a player, can do relationship anarchy win. It’s possible for you to move quickly into non-monogamy and win. The relationship is just less likely to function that way, and more likely to blow up, if you dive in quickly and don’t work hard on jealousy management and mitigation strategies.

I’ve never heard anyone say, “We got into non-monogamy or sex clubs too slowly.” The reverse, however, is very common: people leap in too quickly, then create emotional explosions that destroy their relationships. So going slowly is often better.

Lifting offers another metaphor. Many guys, particularly older guys age 30 and over, hit the gym too hard and too soon, and often don’t have good enough warm-ups and mobility to lift the kind of weight they want to lift. Rapidly adding weight to the squat, deadlift, clean and jerk, overhead press, and bench press is a good way to hurt yourself and ultimately retard your progress. For guys who aren’t targeting peak strength at a particular date for a contest, like basketball playoffs, it’s better to go a little slower. Guys who are being coached for peak strength at a specific section of a sport season or wrestling match have different needs and should consult their coaches. Guys who are starting a workout program for fitness, aesthetics, and improved bodily functioning should add weight a bit more slowly than they think, and avoid injury.

I’ve seen a lot of failure in this world, and seeing all that failure results in the caution expressed in this section.