Jealousy and non-monogamy

In response to “Feedback request: What do you want to see in a book about non-monogamy and players?“, Nash asks about jealousy.

I would be interested in jealousy. I’d like to hear not only “it can be avoided,” but some EXAMPLES of how it has come up, show both sides, and then your best practices, some case studies of how you’ve managed that in YOURSELF and the GIRLS.

Jealousy… I don’t think it can be wholly avoided, for most guys. It’s like pain in the gym. You’re going to feel it sometimes. Most guys, including me, don’t like to see other guys railing their chick, even if the guy and chick are dating casually. In my view, some amount of jealousy, however small, can come up when a guy is in a situation where he’s going to nail another chick and his chick is going to get nailed by another guy.

Jealousy is adaptive because jealous guys have, historically, been more likely to ensure that a chick is bearing his child and not some other guy’s. If he’s carefully monitoring her and who she’s copulating with, he’s better able to ascertain that the baby is his and not Ughnah’s in the next tent over. The vast, overwhelming majority of human existence (99.9999%) occurred before reliable contraceptives and DNA tests, so we are not going to overcome our evolved instincts to do “mate guarding” (the term evolutionary biologists use). Not perfectly, not soon. This excerpt, from The Ape That Understood the Universe: How the Mind and Culture Evolve, further describes jealousy from an evolutionary perspective,

Throughout the course of our evolution, any trait that increased the chances that a man would end up investing in his own offspring, rather than the offspring of his good-looking next-door-neighbour, had a good chance of being selected. One such trait was jealousy – the kind of jealousy that would lead a man to keep a wary eye on his partner and the good-looking neighbour, and to do what he could to keep them apart.

For most guys, jealousy can’t be avoided. So if a guy wants to go down this path, he should know that some amount of jealousy is probably coming and he should be psychologically prepared to experience it, before it happens. A guy can rationally understand that he’s doing a quid pro quo: he’s going to get his, so she’s going to get hers. This helps, but the jealous response is more emotional than rational. It is very hard to overcome emotional response through rational thoughts, but it can be done and for many guys must be done.

If a guy is in a casual relationship, he knows (intellectually) that the girl is probably sleeping with other dudes. He also probably likes the deliberate ambiguity, the way he doesn’t ask her and she doesn’t tell him. So he can think to himself, “Maybe she’s only having sex with me,” while he knows… that’s probably untrue. How big a jump is it from knowing that intuitively to seeing it happen in front of you? A big one, emotionally, but a small one, intellectually, particularly if the guy is busy with another chick.

In addition, I deal with jealousy by focusing on the other chick. I wrote that Libido Girl, who properly introduced me to this world, made sure that I was having sex with another girl before she had sex with another guy. Smart girl. It is hard to get that angry while you are deep in another girl. She did check in with me after all four of us were done having sex, to see how I felt, and again later that night, and again the next morning. She was helping me to emotionally process what had happened.

Now I do something similar with most girls I’m introducing. I encourage them to go first, or for us to go concurrently. Often, we don’t have sex with other people on the first night we go to a club. I try to get them involved somewhat gradually, unless they are very gung ho, like Ms. Slav was.

Jealousy can be better overcome when you (the man) and your date agree to only bang other chicks together, or to only do a couple-to-couple swap. You don’t want her entering a threeway with another couple on her own volition. Problems often happen when another couple appears ready to swap, but then the other chick doesn’t want to do it. That way lies problems. A guy’s date must be willing to call off the sex, and both people in a couple have to look out for each other. If the other couple is not committed to equal swapping, the whole thing must stop. If the other guy is into it and his date is not, it all must stop. I have done this before. It’s like throwing the emergency brake.

Jealousy goes away over time, or a guy becomes acclimated to it. The first time a guy brings a date to his party, jealousy may be overwhelming. But as one becomes acclimated, it decreases. If someone is desperately scared of flying, a psychologist won’t get her on a plane right away. A psychologist will gradually ramp her up (first he’ll have her in a plane-like dwelling, then talk to her about it, etc.). Jealousy can be the same way. Now it’s normal for me to have sex in groups or trade couple-to-couple, so much of the jealous response is gone.

The other way I see people deal with jealousy is, realistically, boredom. Many couples have been together so long that they aren’t that sexually hot for each other anymore. For those guys, jealousy can be a bit useful, because it might make him want to “compete” for the woman he’s tired of listening to every day. Couples who have been together so long that they’re bored may feel less jealousy and, when they do feel jealousy, it may help them.

Another word about swapping: Guys who don’t want their chick to bang other guys are in for likely problems. If the chick is bisexual, she may be okay with seeking another woman, but other single women are called “unicorns” for a reason. This path is not impossible but it is also the route of much drama and nonsense. I’m not going to speak to it here because the reader can search for “unicorns and swingers” or “how do I find a unicorn” and read the endless shit written about this overdone topic.

To summarize, I don’t think there’s a single cure for jealousy because jealousy is evolutionarily adaptive. Jealousy can be overcome by applying rational thinking to an emotional sphere, which has its own problems (I’m aware of them). It can also be overcome by the guy focusing on his own experiences: when you’re in another chick, who has the energy to feel jealous? These methods are imperfect and there is no final “right” answer. That is why everyone discussing swinging, open relationships, and polyamory online discusses jealousy. If there were a simple solution, everyone interested would do it, ending the discussions. But there is no simple, one-size-fits-all solution, so it’s probably the most-discussed topic in non-monogamy. Many people dream about a mate who is loyal while allowing some screwing around. In reality this is a rare circumstance. Many people attempt to resolve this dilemma through covert cheating. Some are merely miserable. Others try non-monogamy, as I do.

I have never said (and will never say) that “non-monogamy is for everyone” or “group sex is great for everyone.” It’s not and it’s not.

I am saying, however, that given how most players like sexual novelty and variety, and most women in uncommitted relationships are going to be fucking around anyway, a guy should think about some of these strategies as a way of achieving better output for less work while also retaining the girl better.

It’s also surprising to me that more players haven’t figured this out. Maybe I’m lazier than some players and like having some of the filtering work done for me, in advance.
Some players are driven by the ego-based thrill of accomplishment, which is also fine, and that ego-thrill makes them chase one-night stands.

Some guys are also into jealousy. Jealousy makes them angry and competitive and then makes the sex better, because they want to do better than the other guy, or reclaim “their woman” and that kind of thing. These guys cite the Robin Baker book Sperm Wars and use the word “compersion.” That is not my experience but if this is you, great.

Jealousy is often most acute when your partner isn’t in the same room; someone who is happy to have sex with lots of different people often doesn’t really truly want their partners to do the same. But it can be easier to handle the jealousy if both parties are getting the same thing at the same time in the same place. That’s why many couples default towards couple-to-couple swaps: this balances the value equations. If the sex and value equation is unbalanced, jealousy becomes stronger. Many people who think they can handle their partners having sex with someone else, can’t. Going slowly during entry to the non-monogamy world can mitigate jealousy. Preferring couple-to-couple swaps can also mitigate it, and I’ve heard from other players exploring this world who have discovered the same thing independently of me. One such player, Black Ring, had a woman who has spent most of her life being very promiscuous and hoping from man to man (and woman to woman: she’s bisexual). He introduced her to sex clubs and gave her a framework for placing and thinking about her non-monogamy. She went out and f**ked a couple new guys. Then, when he did something similar with women, she couldn’t handle it. She seems to not have realized that Black Ring is a guy who can seduce new women, and when he did, she flipped, and broke it off with him. Eventually he reeled her back in, but he expected that she would be okay with him doing the equivalent of what she was doing.

To be sure, Black Ring likely didn’t manage the woman optimally. As a couple, they jumped too deeply into non-monogamy too quickly. Both also had other obligations specific to their individual lives that may have prevented deepening their relationship first. They should have gone more slowly, with her agreeing not to f**k random other guys, and both of them focusing more on the sex club and dating environments. Instead, she wrote checks she couldn’t cash, claiming that she would be fine with him having sex with other women. I’d guess that she didn’t realize he has other options, since most men don’t.

A logical man can also correctly point out she’s the one who made an agreement she couldn’t keep. While the logical man is correct, the psychologically astute man learns to manage women effectively and tries not to put women into situations they aren’t going to be able to handle. That’s why it’s wise to enter this world slowly and agree that if she gets one, he gets one, and if he gets one, she gets one, preferably all at the same time, to help manage jealousy. At work, the wise manager tries to internalize as much negative performance from his subordinates as possible. He asks himself how he could have handled the situation better, how he can handle it better next time, etc. The bad manager blames his subordinates as much as possible in order to keep his own mental image of himself optimal. It’s easy and correct to say that sometimes the good manager gets bad subordinates and sometimes the bad manager gets good subordinates, but the best managers conscientiously try to prevent bad situations and encourage all subordinates to do the best work possible.

When you’re introducing a woman to non-monogamy, encouraging her to only have sex with others with you is a good strategy that is more stable than most other strategies. Moving slowly is a better way to manage emotions than moving quickly. I want to emphasize that you, as a player, can do relationship anarchy win. It’s possible for you to move quickly into non-monogamy and win. The relationship is just less likely to function that way, and more likely to blow up, if you dive in quickly and don’t work hard on jealousy management and mitigation strategies.

I’ve never heard anyone say, “We got into non-monogamy or sex clubs too slowly.” The reverse, however, is very common: people leap in too quickly, then create emotional explosions that destroy their relationships. So going slowly is often better.

Lifting offers another metaphor. Many guys, particularly older guys age 30 and over, hit the gym too hard and too soon, and often don’t have good enough warm-ups and mobility to lift the kind of weight they want to lift. Rapidly adding weight to the squat, deadlift, clean and jerk, overhead press, and bench press is a good way to hurt yourself and ultimately retard your progress. For guys who aren’t targeting peak strength at a particular date for a contest, like basketball playoffs, it’s better to go a little slower. Guys who are being coached for peak strength at a specific section of a sport season or wrestling match have different needs and should consult their coaches. Guys who are starting a workout program for fitness, aesthetics, and improved bodily functioning should add weight a bit more slowly than they think, and avoid injury.

I’ve seen a lot of failure in this world, and seeing all that failure results in the caution expressed in this section.

How to get chicks to go to the sex club

There is no single way I get chicks into the group-sex or open-relationship world, because every chick is a little different and needs different calibration. Libido Girl, who got me into the scene, is highly unusual, and I’ve not met many chicks like her. Since she got me into it, I’ve brought a bunch of chicks to clubs, but there’s a finesse to doing it well. A chick who is super sex-positive will be different than a chick who is sex-negative or comes from a highly religious background. Typically I don’t say anything about this part of my life and experience until we’ve been sleeping together for a while, at least a couple weeks, and by that time she’s more in my world than she is during the leadup to sex or immediate aftermath of it.

My personal vibe is also open to experience and non-judgmental, and that will make the girl more honest about what she’s into and what she’s done. I’m confident many chicks still lie or omit, and that’s fine, but they see what I do in bed and how I talk to them. In bed I use collars, restraints, blindfolds, floggers, and paddles in bed. I like making sex tapes. To me all that stuff is normal, to the point now that I forget most chicks aren’t used to a full-body, all out experience. I bring stuff out a little too quickly, leading to the, “Do you do this with every girl?” question.

(Typical response: “I look at sex as the ultimate experience and am with you, here, right now, and we’re learning about each other. I’m figuring out what you like and respond to. We’re in this together, and we’re exploring.” This basic suite of ideas overcomes that question, which can be a shit test but is really I think the chick being worried about me being a player and being worried about her just being another number. Which she often is, but we’ll leave that to the side.)

When I’m prepping a new chick, I’ll start by asking her about threesomes. What was her first threesome like? That phrasing is crucial: if a guy asks if she’s had a threesome, she’s less likely to admit it than if he asks how her first threesome was. Some chicks will say they haven’t had one. If they have, I’ll ask how’d it go? What were her partners like? If they haven’t had one, I’ll ask if they’ve fantasized about them.

Usually the girl will reciprocate and ask about my experiences, and I’ll tell her about my first threesome and one or two other experiences. I emphasize the idea that a girl typically has an amazing experience because the attention is on her. Two people kissing her, two people on her neck, one one her neck another going down on her, etc. In a sexually charged environment, like being nude in bed with the chick, this is often highly arousing to her.

This will lead to a segue into going to a party or club. “I’ve know this sex club, and we should go.” “Some people are having a sex party, and I want you to come with me.” Chicks rarely say yes immediately. They’ll usually have a barrage of questions about what it’s like, how I got into it, what I know about it, will I have sex with another chick there. But chicks, at least chicks I’m with, rarely reject the idea outright, either. Remember that it’s important for the chick to be sexually bonded before a guy brings this idea up. Sometimes I’ll make the inquiry overly soon, like I did with Bike Girl. That isn’t optimal, but if a guy senses a girl is deeply into him quickly, it can be done.

When I introduce the idea to a chick, I emphasize the fantasy aspect. This is about us living out her fantasies and exploring what she really likes. Most chicks, I think, have a robust fantasy life they’re too scared to seek out. Evolution has bequeathed most chicks with a certain conservatism, on the surface. That’s because most chicks who don’t do much, still get to reproduce. Some guy will come along and seduce her or make her his, and her genes will get into the next generation.

There is actually genetic evidence for this: geneticists have found that we’re descended from about eighty percent of the women who have ever reached reproductive age and about forty percent of the men. The average guy died without issue. The average chick had some babies. Chicks subconsciously know that they don’t have to try and should probably not try most things on their own. This is why chicks start fewer companies and far fewer chicks become important artists or scientists. Nothing drives them out to the bleeding edge.

Chicks typically look to guys for guidance about what to do and how to behave. This is also why guys don’t learn how to lead will never get their sex lives to where their sex lives should be. A lot of game is just leading a chick through the steps and into your bed. Chicks rarely take affirmative, direct actions to make their sex lives better. Instead, they wait for a guy to come along and make their lives happen.

As a younger guy, I didn’t understand why chicks won’t be proactive. Now I get it and have adjusted my behavior accordingly.

Most chicks are not very sexually experimental, on the surface. Many exceptions, like Libido Girl, exist, but game should target the median hot chick, and then game should be calibrated to the individual girl’s temperament. A deft guy can often bring chicks into his reality and do the things with her that she’ll deny to her friends and sometimes even herself. (“It’s not me who’s in charge, he’s just making me do this.”) Giving a chick plausible deniability is a good way to get her into bed. That’s why no one says, “Do you want to come back to my place for sex?” It’s always, “I have a bottle of wine.” “Let’s go watch a movie.” “Let’s play guitar.” When the chick says, “Okay, but I’m not having sex with you,” the guy says, “Who said anything about sex? It’s interesting that that’s on your mind.” Etc., etc. Standard game things.

The first chick I took to a club, after Libido Girl introduced me, was someone who I’d met previously at a business / networking event. I’d seen her for a while, she’d broken it off (I didn’t know how to handle non-monogamy then and was just getting disentangled from my co-parent) and she’d boomeranged back. I took her to some events and that’s when this whole thing began to click for me, and I figured out that parties are mostly about guys who want to trade chicks and thus get lots of casual sex on “easy mode.” Well, not that easy because the guy has to be attractive, socially skilled, and bring the hot chick in the first place. But if he has those elements in place, the sex part naturally flows.

So that is how I went from being taken to a party to taking other chicks in. The most interesting girl I brought is probably the one I mention here, from a couple years ago. She was a high 8 or maybe low 9 but didn’t act like it, or dress like it most of the time. I think she was young enough to not fully appreciate her SMV then. She was also introverted and didn’t behave in the hot young bitchy girl way, so we were uncommonly compatible. And if a guy brings in a true stunning chick, he will forever be the guy who can get hot chicks, thus opening many interesting experiences and doors.

Happy Fourth of July, to the Americans reading this. I’m going to a BBQ that is likely to be extremely boring (older people or kids). I’m at an age where hanging out with my chronological peers is a waste of time from a game perspective, but it’s an offer and we’ll see what happens.

Pickup Dark Arts: kink, group play, blowing her mind

Tom Torero just put up a podcast with Troy Francis on Pickup Dark Arts and I’m glad to hear someone else who is game-and Red Pill-aware discussing this facet of male-female interactions.

The podcast fits with one of the more recent pieces I wrote, “Sex parties and sex clubs could be the next level of game.” Kink and public or group sex aren’t for every guy. I love them both for their own sake and because I find that scene an easier route to lots of girls… for me. But:

The reality is that sexual marketplace value operates at sex clubs just like it does everywhere else. You cannot evade it. Using sex clubs to try and avoid having basic value and game will backfire and waste time. Most women assess men’s sex appeal in all the ways RP guys already know.

Kink and sex clubs are not substitute for game. Any guy who attempts to use them as substitutes will suffer.

Listen to the whole podcast. Guys who have never done more than light restraints and spanking will have their minds blown.

It is also my experience that the kink and sex club scenes will vary greatly from city to city, with the better scenes in the bigger cities.

Sex parties and sex clubs could be the next level of game

I’ve written about non-monogamy and sex clubs here, here, and here, in “How many women are open to sex parties and partner swapping? [intermediate/advanced].” There’s little reason to read this if you’re not already getting laid pretty regularly and you’re not already confident of your ability to to meet and sleep with new women.

Start there. When you’re able to get laid routinely, then read everything else here.

Sex clubs are not a shortcut to having real game. Sex clubs are an extension of existing game. If you don’t have game and status already you will have a bad time if you try to bring your only, sole, single girl with you. Guys like me will try to pick her off. We might succeed. Not only that, but a guy who pins everything to one girl may go emotionally nuts the first time she has sex with another guy in front of him, or indicates that she wants sex with another guy. Before you bring a girl into that situation you need to know that there’s another one behind her if or when she bolts.

[I have finally gotten around to putting together a complete guide to sex clubs and game. If you want a structured, comprehensive look at how this world works, check out the book.] 

In my view the basic dynamic of sex parties is guys exchanging hot females with a minimal amount of logistical bother. That’s it. People overcomplicate and overthink this. You have a hot girl. I have a hot girl. Let’s trade. The girl obviously has to like the other guy well enough (or want to fuck the girl).

This is the fundamental dynamic. It’s an exchange of value for value. I get more novelty than I’d have otherwise. You get more novelty than you’d have otherwise. Win-win. Fail to bring the value and you will likely fail at the sex club. Guys who have a bad time of game in general will also have a bad time if they manage to convince their one and only partner to come to a sex club with them.

Single women will sometimes come to sex clubs, and sometimes even attractive single women will come. Many guys will of course desire the single women for a threesome, and guys with sufficiently high status and good game are more likely to get them. Single women who are highly open to experience, highly bisexual, or with very high sex drives are the only ones likely to attend. Most women, of course, don’t do shit unless there is a guy ready to lead them. Exceptions tend to be ultra-high libido. Like, I’ve had a fairly long-term, off-and-on FWB who really, seriously wants to have sex twice a day, every day. You, the man reading this, may think, “Oh great mate, sign me up, I’d love to shag that much too.” The vast majority of guys, especially guys over the age of 25, will eventually be knackered by a really persistent woman, and she’s figured that out, so she needs multiple boyfriends or FWBs.

But she’s exceptional and unusual. Typical women at sex parties are brought by their primary partners. Typical guys want to swap with a girl who is at least on the level of the girl they’ve brought. It’s about exchanging value.

The basics of game still apply. Strong masculine identity and strong social skills lead to good outcomes. At parties and clubs lots of guys try to get “something for nothing” by offering to swap with couples nowhere near their level. Usually they are declined. Often by me. If you bring a girl to a sex party, be ready to say “no.” Be ready to lead.

Be ready to lead.

Be ready to lead. I know I’ve just written that three times in a row, but game-aware guys know that very few chicks will lead. They will really really not lead in most group sex situations. Some chicks will lead themselves a little bit more as they get relaxed and into the sex zone, but most won’t at the beginning. The fewer the people, the worse most chicks are at leading. So you, the man, will have to have the social deftness to make propositions and accept when they’re rejected. And when they’re accepted, which is scarier for some guys.

Most cities have a “scene” of some kind. I don’t know your city so I don’t know what it entails. In your city there will likely be a core nucleus of regulars, organizers, and people who make things happen. Show up enough and you will become one of them. If you’re a high-value guy who regularly brings hot chicks, you’ll be invited to events solo.

The worst clubs and parties are empty or filled with fatties. I walk away from those events. When I use online app matcher systems, I emphasize my interests in lifting and fitness, and this acts as a fattie repulsion system. Not perfectly, but well enough.

At the best events there are many hot couples or, more rarely, single unicorns. The hotter you are, the better you do. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Fantasize about a party full of gorgeous women aching for wild sex with you, but know that those don’t exist in real life. Because people are there for sex, guys can’t hold out much in the way of resources and commitment to attract women. What RP guys call “beta” or “niceguy” game works poorly.

Lots of threeways have happened with women or couples I’ve met through the scene. If you’re a reliable guy who brings hot girls to the parties and clubs, you’ll be in demand by other couples who want to swap. As you should know from reading Nancy Friday or some female erotica, lots of women fantasize about a threesome with two guys. Keep an eye out and you’ll find other guys, possibly game-aware, who may become your go-to “threesome friend.” You bring him in when you need a guy and vice-versa. It’s all about the value. If you’re providing value and he’s providing value, you’re golden.

Most guys are poorly equipped, psychologically and physically, for this role. But the right guy can be great. Like I said, he brings chicks, you bring chicks. He may have game, or he may just have a good social circle and persistence.

And, as for her, most girls know that most men can’t even articulate the girl’s fantasies, let alone fulfill them. Being able to move her from fantasy to reality will blow her mind and simultaneously draw her into your world. “Wait!” you might be thinking, “How is it that a threesome with another guy will bring her closer to you?”

Simple: she’s likely never been there before, and she knows that most guys will freak out if they hear her real fantasies. So any guy who can bring them up, listen without judgment, or even propose the kind of sex she’s dreamed about must be special. It takes social finesse to make these things happen, and she’ll know you have it, whereas other guys don’t.

Most women are very scared to share their fantasies. They fear, legitimately, that guys will shame them. Being a guy who doesn’t ever slut shame and lets her explore her bedroom desires will set you apart.

If you have a regular, uncommitted FWB you don’t want for an LTR, try bringing her. Maybe you’ll hate it. But it can be next-level game if you have the right stuff for it.

Most couples who come will be in committed relationships and they’ll be bored with each other. If you’re the guy who consistently brings in new hot women, you will be exceptional. You will be a star.

Some women will say no but many will be intrigued. I’ve been told many things. Like:

  • You are too experimental.
  • You are disgusting.
  • I would never do something like that.
  • I’m not that kind of girl.
  • I want a guy who respects me.

The first one is my fave. About a quarter of chicks have rejected me outright when I’ve proposed a sex club. I only do that after I’ve been sleeping with them for at least a couple weeks. About a quarter have been excited and enthusiastic and don’t need convincing. About half have been uncertain, but they will usually go if I encourage them and promise that we’ll start slow.

Many sex parties and clubs will pretend to be egalitarian and accept people of all body types. Ignore the rhetoric. The reality is that sexual marketplace value operates at sex clubs just like it does everywhere else. You cannot evade it. Using sex clubs to try to avoid having basic value and game will backfire and waste time. Guys who learn the game realize they need two things: value and a value delivery mechanism. Fail in either and the game won’t work. At the clubs, you will very rarely see young girls who like the degradation of sex with vile men, but that is rare. Most women assess men’s sex appeal in all the ways RP guys already know.

It’s not for all guys but, except for Blackdragon, I see no one writing about this. It’s a kind of ecosystem game that I’ve not seen players write about. But to me, it’s an extension of other kinds of game that can be much faster than opening girls on the street or online. But like I keep saying, it is not a shortcut. Try using it as a shortcut and you will be burned.

You may have heard, “A man is only as monogamous as his options.” Few men with good options choose monogamy. Once you get to that stage…. why not keep going? Make those options work for you, instead of hiding who you want to be?

If you have gotten this far, read the book already.