Group sex and the shift from scarcity to abundance

An anonymous player I know says,

Group sex has fundamentally shifted my thoughts about Red Pill and seduction. I cannot understate the change in me. It really does feel like a shift from scarcity to abundance.

I know this feeling and yet no other writing players I’m aware of are tapping non-monogamy and groups. Threesome and group sex fantasies are very common among both men and women, as women themselves attest, but most women are passive and lack the leadership necessary to make their fantasies reality. Very few women know guys who can pull off executing these fantasies, so, if you become that guy, you are by definition not a commodity guy. Women are bombarded by commodity guys with basic or no sex skills, and a guy who can unlock their dirtier fantasies is not that guy. If you tap into the sex club world, you will also end up unlocking a pool of girls who are pre-selected for liking to f**k a lot… and then you can f**k them.

Women have the fantasy, but the group-sex reality usually needs deep coordination between the participants, especially for MFM. The threesome management guide I wrote probably understates the degree to which coordination is important. Ideally all the players should cooperate and coordinate, but the temptation to defect remains potent in many threesome situations, and it often happens that one party is less active during some parts than the other two parties. This can lead to feelings of isolation and being left out, particularly because most threesomes happen between an established couple and a third person. The third person often brings new relationship energy (NRE) in with them.

After an MFM or FMF, the aftercare for the girl is super important. Many girls will experience sub-drop, and the girl may be susceptible to feelings of worthlessness, low sexual marketplace value, disgust, regret, etc. The girl may need reaffirmation that she is a good person, that sexuality is fun and normal, that she is not dirty or degraded, and that she’s not just a f**k-toy for men. That means she probably needs to be held, cuddled, chatted with, etc. The man should check in with her the next day, in person if possible. It’s a good idea to do a non-sexual or low-sexual date as soon as possible, like getting coffee or going for a walk. This allows her to process the intensity of the group sex situation and feel that her normal life is not disturbed by what she may feel are depraved fantasies.

All of these challenges can be overcome and mitigated, but the novice group-sex initiate often doesn’t anticipate them. I don’t think I anticipated them effectively. I also didn’t anticipate how it was possible to combine non-monogamy, game, and sex clubs to unlock abundance and commodification.

Another player says,

I thought you need to be an experienced player to do threesomes and group sex and now I organised MFM is less than four months in a game with a first regular after four months dry spell. Wtf is going on?

I can understand it… and that is part of the reason I like it… and also part of the reason I think the rest of my game has improved… I genuinely don’t give a fuck if any individual girl is into me or not, which makes them more into me, and protects my vibe/state during cold streaks. I know that I’ll end up getting laid one way or another… so if she wants these peak experiences, she needs to enter my world. That’s kind of the attitude, or the frame. Many women reject the gift… and that’s fine… most people’s lives are kind of crappy.

I want to emphasize that I care a lot about the women in my life who I choose and who choose me, and with whom I have a tight bond. Many guys get hurt or angry when a strange women rejects them. That’s the wrong way to think about it, although I understand how desperation and horniness drives guys to think that way. The woman who offers a swift rejection gives you the gift of your time and attention, to better deploy them. Time is always finite, and one modern tragedy is the way people waste it on social media.

The player who organised the MFM also substituted (some) knowledge for experience. That is the beauty and magic of books… they accelerate learning. Reading a book is no perfect substitute for experience, as should be obvious, but the player who’s read it has the intellectual and social framework for implementing group sex and non-monogamy ideas. I had to build up those things from scratch.

I think most guys think threesomes “just happen” after a bunch of drinking and lucky circumstances. You are taking “just happens” and making an industrial process or algorithm out of it. Once you have the fundamental, you know what to do. Discovering the algorithm is hard, but implementing it is (relatively) easy. The free book allows guys to get past the innovation phase and towards the engineering/implementation phase.

One theme you’ve seen running through this blog is about markets, supply, and demand. Magnum tweeted out The Dating Market: Thesis Overview, about dating market dynamics… “A conservative estimate of the percentage of new relationships begun online in 2019 is at least 65%, but likely over 75%.” “The social costs of rejecting a potential mate are now likewise effectively zero, making introductions within existing social groups (friends, family friends, church, etc.) structurally inferior propositions given significant social and reputational risk in the event of an adverse outcome.”

The age dynamic creates significant inter-age cohort competition in the female population and increased overall competition in the male population. This can be conceptualized as the market becoming more efficient, which naturally leads to many market participants anecdotally expressing unhappiness with the status quo as they incorrectly identify an inability to produce low effort excess returns as the circumstances being “unfair.” Basically, the same thing is happening in the dating market as is happening in the Hedge Fund market: things are getting more efficient, very few are pleased about it, and there are lots of strange advice books, blogs, and videos coming out.

But for top guys, women become a commodity… something this author has missed.

We could say, “Sometimes it seems to me that a good unified theory of modern society’s anxieties might be ‘everything is too efficient and it’s exhausting.'” Dating is more efficient in some ways, but less efficient in others. Most chicks can’t accurately assess a guy through his online bullshit. Most guys however can accurately assess about how hot a chick is. So chicks have lots of choices without good ways of navigating those choices. This seems like a detour, but the market for basic guys is flooded.

The market for guys who can make a woman’s sexual fantasies come true remains thin. Most guys can’t do this. I’m teaching guys how not to be like most guys. I don’t know, maybe in 10 years all guys will have threesomes and group sex in their quivers, and it won’t be a significant differentiator. For right now, today, it sure is. I am helping guys get out of the efficient markets and into inefficient markets for making fantasies happen. If every guy is on Tinder he will be judged accurately and harshly as a commodity, but if he is doing daygame, building his value, and offering enticing non-commodity experiences, well then he’s going to offer unusual value.

I also think most guys and chicks are doing online dating poorly, but that is a rant for another time.

New thread, a player had an MFM and then worked through the aftermath of it,

We did a debrief today and discussed the good, the bad and the ugly of the MFM. One lesson learnt for me was having a second crack at [girl] while [player 1] was in the shower. We cleared that up and agreed no more sex unless he or I are back in the room with our main girl.

Personally I’m not worried about sex happening with the main girl while I’m not in the room, provided that I trust the other guy. But I understand where these rules come from. In addition, applying this kind of business logic or practice to sex is also how to build skills rapidly. Most guys, especially younger guys who have not been in the work world, are not familiar with these kinds of practices. There are different formal methodologies for this, like six sigma, but they are pretty similar. Smart businesses know they are key to rapidly building skills and improving product, service, etc. There is no reason they cannot or should not also be applied to seduction… or in this case to group sex. Most of us have ego defenses that inhibit us from getting honest negative feedback, but the good/bad/ugly mechanism or mechanisms like it help us overcome ego defenses and work to maximize skill improvement.

After intense group sex experiences it’s often good to run through these kinds of things to determine what limits and boundaries are there as well as how to make them better next time. Each individual and couple needs to work out their own rules and principles, and I can’t do that for them.

Overall, these players are hitting many of the expected milestones, so it’s positive to see that my experience doesn’t seem to be unique but instead is part of a pattern that is replicable by others.

Basic sex party. Relationship skills

Basic sex party last night, a private one put on by people I know, but it was underattended… too large to be intimate but too small to be a rager with that powerful group ecstatic energy, like what the pentecostal sects generate when they speak in tongues and shit. Party could have used more face control too… some parties want to be elite and screen for hotties, while others want to be inclusive, under the assumption some hotties will be turned off by explicit exclusion. Personally I prefer parties/groups that prefer exclusiveness, but they’re not always available, and vibe at them can be not optimal. Plus, they’re sometimes tempted to hire talent to stock the pond… a move I don’t like either. I want everyone there of their free will, not thinking about how they’re f**king for cash.

I brought a date, and we net liked the environment. She’s met many of my friends, and she behaves well in the environment. Taking a woman to a sex party is revealing… we all test each other by taking ourselves out of the “normal” environment and into a potentially more stressful one. Weekend trips that require planning and logistics tell partners more about each other than living an everyday life that is already set up. Same thing here. This one behaved well, although there probably wasn’t much temptation there, cause the top guys and girls were absent.

One super weird thing happened: a pretty, slender mid 7, early to mid 20s, met me for the first time and started hitting on me pretty aggressively. She was there alone (unusual for pretty girls) and women as pretty as her almost never explicitly hit on me. I’m used to it from mid 6s and lower, but not from someone like her. It started with strong eye contact, chit chat, then her stroking my arm…! We separated, I went with my date elsewhere, and then my date and I were siting around an area where people chill out, and the pretty 7 came over to hit on me some more. Touching my leg and so on. A buddy who I like a lot, but who is also pretty chunky, talked to us for a while, so that took some pressure off, but his date is a jealous goblin (low 5 / 4), so he also felt restricted from taking a shot, despite him having a couple skills and interests she liked. I was a bit thrown off because I’m used to pursuing much more than being pursued…. it’s also possible that if I’d been alone I wouldn’t have been perceived as desirable. She was flat chested but had a pretty face, trim body, and nice ass. My buddy got her # in front of me and also passed it to me, so that was cool, but I don’t think pursuit is compatible with my current life goals. She also said she got married at 18 and divorced shortly thereafter, so maybe she was late 20s and just seemed young. A couple things I told her about my life seemed to impress her disproportionately… one thing in particular that I sometimes tell people seems to impress them in a way it really shouldn’t. I guess it’s a status move to others that doesn’t feel like that to me.

My date and I got to the party a little late, and after a lot of chat and introductions we went down, f**ked for a very long time, deployed toys, exhausted ourselves, and left. Before the party we got dinner with some friends of friends who were in town, and that was too much running around for a single night.

So it was a fine evening, just uncommon cause of that one girl offering herself up to f**k, I think. My date is not much into other girls and really not into people she doesn’t know well, so that was a no-go. I wanted to pass her to my buddy but he was there with the jealous goblin (gotta protect the limited territory she’s conquered), and he had the excuse of the thing he had to do this morning. As we were leaving the cute girl was still dressed and un-fucked, so maybe no one was to her taste? Or maybe she f**ked after I left. Collected the phone number via my buddy, as she knew, although her crazy eyes worry me. She is into something non-sexual I’m also into that not everyone is into.

Other stuff. Remember Short Dancer? She moved back to her small home town… a while ago I encouraged her on Facebook to come visit, for an implied f**k weekend. She replied by blocking me. Damn. Is that just a hard no? Or is she a little tempted and wants to remove herself from temptation, the same way I avoid the pastries and ice cream in the grocer’s. If you’re trying to make a life change… you want to set up systems and principles to make the changes, activities, etc. easy to do, almost automatic. To get buff, set up your gym schedule and stick to it no matter what. So every Tuesday at 630 you know you’ll be in the gym. If you want to be monogamous… disconnect from people who tempt you away.

It’s also possible Short Dancer is just really monogamous and she was/is emotionally hurt from me not being that way at that time. A lot of guys claim chicks are all cheaters, etc. If you think that I can only encourage you to try and get chicks to cheat with you. It can work but more often doesn’t. I have a funny story from many months ago about a woman from yoga… she ended up halfheartedly jerking me off but it felt like I was still very far from getting it in her p***y, despite her liking to smoke up. Usually drugs are a strong slut tell but seemingly not for this girl, or not for her with me. It’s been long enough that I have forgotten her name. I am sitting here trying to recall it. Fiona or something like that? It was unusual. With an F? Fiona? Phoenix? Or is it something else? I never saved her name in my phone and I had consistent problems remembering her name… she seems to have switched yoga studios too! She might also have been already f**king a male “friend” who came with her to some classes.

Back to Short Dancer: we are still connected in another social media medium, and I saw her latest, pro-boyfriend updates, and let me be immodest for a minute and say I’m way better than her boyfriend. I don’t think he’s a lateral move from me…. I think he’s a considerable step down. I hope SD comes back for another round some time but I’m not optimistic. Most girls, they come and they go and I’m pretty whatever about them. SD has lodged in the mind. Objectively she’s very cute but not exceptional, yet I really liked her. Around the time our affair ended I was going to whisper during sex that I love her. I still really like her, despite her not having that much personality. I can’t describe much about what she’s like… just very pleasant to be around and f**k. Most girls I like being around, I can say why, or give a flavor of their personality. Not this one. If she is monogamous, I wonder if she wants to do a family much sooner than I would have guessed. Maybe she would have been good for that role but at the time I was busy with a girl tornado and figured that I could convert her to non-monogamy.

With the new woman, it’s good, don’t get me wrong. It’s fine. But there often seems like there’s an undercurrent of business in our sex life. I like her for a lot of reasons, one of them being that she checks off a lot of boxes for me… and she might like me for the same reasons. Not a situation that leads to maximum passion. There is probably a need to choose between “maximum passion” and “best life partner.” We have all read stories about 35-40 year old women lamenting the lack of “good” men who are tall, fit, wealthy, good earners, passionate, expert lovers, monogamous, willing to invest in an older woman… and we have all made fun of those stories, as we should, because the women in them are delusional and unreasonable. If you’re a guy, it is also hard to maximize for best sex and also for best suited for family. We hear less about this from guys because for most guys it’s a struggle to get one woman, let alone to choose among women. And our culture doesn’t give a fig about guys, so no one is going to write about male struggle. Players also chase best sex and don’t care much about life partner qualities, but if you want to do family, you want to optimize for something else. People who wind up treating relationships as disposable and a field for optimization can have a hard time treating relationships as non-disposable and non-commodity. This paragraph is another installment in the thinking I was talking about in “Picking up girls” skills and “long-term relationships” skills. There’s some overlap but also some difference. I’ve got another post, inspired by red pill dad, coming later this week.

Sex skills for guys: psychology, preparation, and practice

Why’s there not more talk about the specifics of sex? I have some ideas… RedCoco says,

Pickup seems pretty quiet on the topic of sex skills.

I sense that as men we set our sexual baseline energy way too low when women are craving animalistic, dominant, rough sex from us.

We as men choose vanilla.

Women want the whole gelato bar!

I have a theory that most guys are not actually get laid much and the ones who are are not great in bed. I have been thinking about writing a “psychology of sex” essay to complement the sex-toy one (RPD wrote me, “Dude, thank you for the vibrator tip—chicks love that and it’s so easy”) … and now you have it. I haven’t written it because there are many good resources for sex skills, She Comes First being good. There is another one called The Sex God Method which is also fine. There is another one called Slow Sexthat is good for chicks who have trouble coming. Just F*ck Me! – What Women Want Men to Know About Taking Control in the Bedroom. So there are lots of resources for guys who want to get better at f**king, but not so many for guys who want to get better at seduction and pickup, so that is where the community hammers.

There is probably one thing that I think is useful above all others… take your time. Demonstrate to her that you are not in a rush… I made this mistake many times when I was younger. Most guys are so thrilled that a decent chick is getting naked that they want to rush through foreplay and to the stage when their dick is inside her. This is very rarely the best way to be… sometimes it’s necessary if you’re for example in a public bathroom or a car, but if you’re able, take your time. Guys warm up close to instantly, chicks warm up like an iron… slowly, but with great heat at the end. You never hear a girl say, “Oh God, it was so nice when he got inside me so fast! Wow! Next time I hope he is inside me even faster.” Chicks don’t say, “He came in two minutes flat, that was great.” But she will often complain that he skimps foreplay, she wasn’t fully aroused, she needed more kissing, she was still in her head, etc.

Continue reading “Sex skills for guys: psychology, preparation, and practice”

“The Woman Searching for the Lust She Didn’t Have Before”

The Woman Searching for the Lust She Didn’t Have Before” is more Red Pill advice, but from a woman… this one dumped her fiancé cause “He wanted to have kids right away, move to New Jersey, and just be basic and suburban together. He was a great guy but I would have died in that environment. I’m having so much fun now (more or less).” For chicks and relationships, “Boredom = death,” a fact many guys fail to realize, and chicks just want to have “fun.” Guys whose ideas of fun include security and basic provisioning are not attractive to the vast majority of chicks.

Simultaneously, this chick knows another woman, “She’s 40-something and still looking for ‘Mr. Right.’ I don’t see anything wrong with being single and 40 but I cannot imagine searching for the ‘right’ guy for 15 more fucking years. Life is too short for that!” Yet this chick is probably heading in that direction. Or who knows, she’s going to end up being “poly.” Whatever it is, there is an element of “as you sow, so you shall reap.”

“I think how I really love when a man is strong and aggressive in his kissing. I’m not sure I need/want gentle and loving. I kind of want to be fucked and devoured.” Very much what you’ve been reading about sex techniques in this blog, Red Coco’s blog, etc., about how women like rough and dominant sex and if you’re not doing that you’re probably turning her off.

A lot of chicks, when you really really listen to them, are Red Pill. They just don’t frame it the way Red Pill guys do. What chicks want and what guys really want to do fit together. The problem is that modern feminism and schools (feminist indoctrination camps) try to disable what people instinctually want… then people get in f**ked-up relationships that never really work.

It took me an incredibly long time to recognize the need for rough sex skills. That may be why an appreciable number of chicks prefer older guys, who have learned the ropes.