“From Baby to Bride: Can ‘sugar’ relationships be a path to real love?”

From Baby to Bride Can ‘sugar’ relationships be a path to real love?” is ridiculous and not Red-Pill aware, but it does engage ideas from my own sex-work essay, “How to use Seeking Arrangements for fun and profit.” Most of the time (the overwhelming majority) paid sex will not lead to anything more. But:

I use variations of the online dating pics I already have. These are effective. The fatter, older, and uglier you are, the more SA is like standard hooking. The younger, fitter, and more attractive you are, the closer it can be to online dating. Again, the key word is “can,” because you still need game.

You also NEED:

  • Ultra-strong frame
  • High level of assertiveness.

 

If you lack either you will be owned. Sex workers are masters of frame and if you don’t maintain extremely strong frame, she will crush you. A guy always needs to maintain the idea that she needs him more than he needs her, and that is more true in paid situations.

Sex workers are sex workers but they’re also just chicks, and like most chicks they’re on the lookout for love.

I also don’t believe this: “Over time she settled on the price of $500 for a dinner, wine, and sex arrangement—a somewhat standard price among the sugar babies I interviewed.” $500 is too high. I think the sex workers are either lying or extremely attractive. Or there are more rich, stupid guys out there than I would have thought.

Things like this: “They agreed that he would pay for her gas to come and see him but didn’t need to pay her regular fee” have happened, more or less, to me. Whether it happens depends on the girl and the guy. Plus, for all my talk about game, interpersonal compatibility does matter. Losing chicks doesn’t bother me much, but losing the ones I really like still does, because there aren’t that many of them.

“Dan” in the Slate story is still a loser. Don’t be Dan and do extremely beta things like buy cars for “former” sex workers, or any woman. If you do that, you’re still just paying for sex.  The minute Dan’s money runs out, “Sarah” is gone.

Feminists and Blue Pill people more generally are obsessed with men financially subsidizing women. That makes some sense, because traditional marriage is an arrangement in which a man subsidizes a woman who bears his children, with financial compensation there because she’s out of the labor market, often for years, due to pregnancy and childcare. But today, women spend little time out of the labor market, and what they offer (sex) can be easily found outside of marriage. So Red Pill guys learn not to marry (“Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?”), but feminists and most normal women still want a man who will financially subsidize them.

How to use Seeking Arrangements for fun and profit

In a thread on “Want to experience the nonstop attention, validation, and abundance that today’s young women have?”, someone suggested that Seeking Arrangements is a good way to do it. I concur, mostly, but I want to emphasize reservations.

Seeking Arrangements is oddly similar to normal online dating, and it’s an amalgam of normal-ish girls and outright pros. The latter will be more business-focused upfront and want to talk about money, rates, etc. I usually let these go and focus more on the non-pro girls (who are also usually younger).

You need to list income, net worth, etc. I exaggerate mine somewhat (you need to, for the same reason women lie about their age, plus I am not showing these women my tax returns), and I use variations of the online dating pics I already have. These are effective. The fatter, older, and uglier you are, the more SA is like standard hooking. The younger, fitter, and more attractive you are, the closer it can be to online dating. Again, the key word is “can,” because you still need game.

You also NEED:

  • Ultra-strong frame
  • High level of assertiveness.

If you lack either you will be owned. Sex workers are masters of frame and if you don’t maintain extremely strong frame, she will crush you. A guy always needs to maintain the idea that she needs him more than he needs her, and that is more true in paid situations.

When I meet girls from there I suggest that we get a drink and see if we like each other. For girls under 21 I know bars where we can meet w/o them getting carded. If they balk and demand money talk first I move on cause they’re likely a conventional pro. I know where to find those and how to negotiate with them—if I want one of those I will find one.

If we get a drink and I like the girl and she’s as described, I do standard game, bar one, then bar two (which has a dance floorish area where I can do some dancing and what not), then back to my place (if I can get her there). Like I said, this is mostly standard game, lots of talk about their experiences / dreams / desires / etc. Sometimes towards the end I will slide $20 in their underwear if they are money-driven and whisper shit like, “There is more where that came from.” Depending on the situation, if the girl seems not interested in money, I will skip the money.

Usually if we have sex once we’ll have it more than once, and if the girl is compliant and not bitchy the sex is almost always decent. I have a kind of specialty in going down on girls, which I both enjoy and have practiced to apparently unusual heights. I also am good at balancing talking to girls about what feels good and just nailing them senseless.

Guys cannot treat a girl like a programming problem where we stop every 10 seconds to ask her something, but different girls like different things. Some girls have very delicate nipples and lightly touching them is great. Some like it much rougher. Etc. I also like taking girls to sex shops, buying butt plugs and ropes and shit like that, and then using it on them. Girls who have never had sex with buttplugs in them LOVE it. As with all dating, guys who are extremely good at sex will find retaining girls. And many SA girls will be less focused on money, obviously.

Once that dam is broken SA will usually let me do whatever else I want, mostly going bare, taping sex, and taking them to sex parties; I know that the first is fucking dangerous and I just don’t care because I love it. But it is not something I would do w/ standard-issue escorts because it is too dangerous, and it is not something they would let me do (or not except for a lot of money, and even then I wouldn’t).

Some guys may want to work on getting girls without paying for them from SA, etc., but to be honest I think that’s a waste of time, unless it arises organically; the better girls are on there for a reason and I think it is faster to keep them coming back. The betters ones  love the sex and the money and the two together are the best.

The variability of SA is incredibly high. Many of the girls are lying about their weight / age, as always happens online. Some are deceptively less attractive in their online pics, and they are more attractive IRL. Seems bizarre but there it is. Total trailer trash girls (who I mostly avoid) will congregate there too. They are usually easy to pick out via their pictures.

Pros (or women trending in that direction) will negotiate rates, sometimes absurd rates… the downside of SA is that it can combine the flakiness of online dating with the cost of conventional hookers. The upside, however, is that there are often young uncertain girls who can be played like conventional dates, which I’m pretty good at, and they can be gotten fairly cheaply, or sometimes free.

The girl I was seeing is wildly gorgeous and I was doing $500/mo direct deposit… I saw her most days… probably too much…

Guys who have money and are in good shape are highly in-demand on SA. Most guys have neither and some have one or the other. I’ve had girls complain that most of the guys they meet are poor losers; in other words, they are getting flaked on more than the guys (haha, reversal of the world order).

I also love the swingers scene and swingers parties, and the main one went for it with me. Most of you hate that shit but the way I look at it is simple: there are really only two sets of girls, girls you’d think about LTRs w/ children and ones you wouldn’t. For girls I don’t want to have kids with, I just don’t care that much about a given woman’s monogamy and if she flakes, whatever, I get another one, sometimes hotter.

If you are an older guy and you have cash and you are not doing some ego thing about getting laid (Nick Krauser is an ego-driven guy; I just want to nut in hot girls. Simple man, simple pleasures), spending small amounts to get with hot 18 – 24 yr old girls can be an effective use of money. I know guys who spend $10K+ per year on cars and vacations and boats and big houses and dumb shit like that. Waste of money IMO. The marginal return on investment is NOT THERE.

I know a lot of guys who got divorce raped and would LOVE to have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the form of lifetime earnings or even the million+ dollars lost to their ex-spouses. Who’s smarter, the guy who doesn’t get married and sometimes pays to play, or the guy who does and loses so much $$$$ to someone who he doesn’t even like anymore (and who probably doesn’t like him)? I know lots of guys who take their bitchy materialistic wives on costly vacations and they don’t seem to get shit out of it except hassle.

I see guys who slaved away through med school and residency who’re overweight and ugly dating and marrying land whales in their mid-30s. No thanks. What was the point of all that effort, again? Same w/ engineers, CS guys, finance guys, oil guys (oh my God, the oil guys and their fat wives). They are pussy-poor and cash rich. Er… we live in a market economy. Use the one to get the other. The number of hot girls w/ no money and poor decision-making skills is outstanding.

It’s not worth paying if you’re a young guy and doing okay in terms of game, body, and life. Paying for it is for 35+, maybe 40+. If you’re in your 20s you need to be developing the skills to NOT pay for it, and invest any extra money you can in the stock market.

Again, what I am saying about SA is NOT ALWAYS TRUE and it will take you some dates to get used to it. Don’t be too eager to pay… the girls on it range from stone pros to genuinely confused teenagers. Often you will not know who you date until you get out with them. Going rate for good escort sex in my area is $200 – $300/hr (I don’t know why guys would spend more than an hour but go figure). Higher in LA/NYC/SF. It seems possible to get good escorts for as little as $150/hr but that is much dicier and IMO not worth the drama or problems.

As you can tell I kinda like SA because it allows me to leverage above-average money with above-average (not stellar) game.

tl;dr: You can do well on SA but it takes skill as well as money and has some peculiarities. Your game still matters.