The false mystique of the “top guy,” and what revealed preferences show women really want

Madd Monk suggests men “Become a Top Guy or Die Trying,” something I’m not opposed to (who doesn’t want to be top?), but it’s something that conceals as much as it reveals, because a lot of guys have problems with value delivery as much as or more than value building… Madd Monk says “If you want to live a certain lifestyle, and you want women that complement your lifestyle, it’s top guy or bust” and that “game is the delivery mechanism to display your value.” I don’t love the word “display” and would prefer another word, like “convey,” but I understand what he’s saying.

It’s a good post, read it, especially the section about his former mother-in-law pulling him aside for some hard-core realpolitik on his wedding day… but I notice that Madd Monk doesn’t define the “top guy.” Does “top” mean… money? Social respect? Skill in some domain? Something else? “Top” can be a lot of things, and no one is “top” in all things. A lot of guys think being the “top” guy concerns money, but, once we get to an income level where we can pay our bills and lead a normal life, chicks don’t care much about money. We’ve all likely met rich simps guys with no game and outcomes with women consistent with no game. We’ve all met guys in debt who do extraordinarily well with women. I don’t code as wealthy to women and have done well, and I think smart women realize that many of the richest guys blend in, rather than standing out.

Essentially, many men think, often subconsciously, that the function “getlaid(men) = value + value delivery mechanism,” but many men get confused with the top guy rhetoric and think the function “getlaid = value.” Game is the value delivery mechanism, and game is harder, for many guys, than income, or than other kinds of value, and consequently many men avoid the hard work of learning game, and hope that as they increase value, there’s a linear increase in the output of the gelaid function… but there isn’t. That’s not the algorithm, and this is a huge misunderstanding of how the function works. Also, value is contextual: as women acquire more wealth, value is less monetary, and instead value is value to her life (a topic I discuss in What do we spend our excess money on? Sex). A lot of modern value is sexual value, which is why I offer those posts describing sex & BDSM skills. Women today love sexual dominance. A lot is leadership. And so on. It’s different for different women, too, at different times in their life, at different venues, at different times of the month.

Many men confuse “value” with “value to society,” but a lot of women, maybe most, don’t care about value to society; they care about their own pleasures and interests. Value only means value to her in the function “getlaid,” which is why a lot of “top guys”, are only top by metrics that society of MEN care about. Most of us have seen highly paid engineers and managers who do poorly with women, despite their high incomes, or despite the admiration of their work peers. The ones who do well often tell women “banker by day, DJ by night,” that kinda shit. Today, anyone with a couple of decks is a “DJ,” come back and we’ll smoke a bowl, listen to some tracks I’m working on, baby, it’ll be fun.

For most guys, improving their nutrition, lifting, improving their fashion, improving their social skills: those are the things that “top” guys have and do in the eyes of most chicks. The man-world status hierarchy of money and companies doesn’t matter to most attractive women, and men become frustrated by attractive women who don’t care about their man-world accomplishments.

For attractive women, men with money and money only are common… it’s similar to VC, where it’s hard to get into the best deals if all you’re offering is money. Money is a commodity when there’s so much of it. The harder stuff like help with hiring, helping you with strategy, marketing, getting acquired. That’s what differentiates the top firms and makes the entrepreneur take their money. Money is good, don’t shirk it, I’m not a communist who thinks you shouldn’t make money, but guys mistakenly think it matters more than it does. It doesn’t. People want to have great experiences, not collect marks in their bank accounts. She won’t remember what you bought her, she’ll only remember how you make her feel, and she wants to feel she’s earned whatever she’s given. Game is the art of making her feel.

You can see guys trying to “buy” their way into women in the nightlife world. In New York, “top guy” used to be finance bros and models, going to clubs and shit in the Meatpacking District, but I think that world’s been losing status for years, and I’m not the only one (xbtusd has noticed the same). I’ve also seen status realignment over the last 10 years… burning man and psychedelic and sex party non-mono values and aesthetics seem to have exploded in the last five years. The status hierarchies are changing. For many years, I’ve incorporated bits into dates in which I ask chicks about the best, peak experiences in their lives. Most can’t or won’t answer, not at first, so I have to have some answers ready to go, which is another way of saying “stories ready to tell…” chicks are awful at discussing almost anything that doesn’t include reality TV, it’s remarkable, but they don’t need to: if they’re hot, especially, some guy will come along to offer to make things happen. Notice how poorly many of them deal with trade offs or the idea that maximizing one space in a domain often means minimizing another. Who are the most ardent advocates of socialism? The young, women, the dumb, people who have never taken econ classes.

The player learns a key rule: Make her feel something. Modern life has wrung out our ability to connect and feel anything, and game is the art of facilitating connection and feeling (which psychedelics can aid). So we need to look at all the things that have been commoditized and ask, “Where has value moved?” Scarcity has moved to the ability to make women feel. It’s similar to when you look at an industry and ask, “Okay, which layers of the value chain have been commoditized?” When I buy a phone, the hardware is nearly 100% commoditized; the phone has to be vertically integrated. Chips have to be made specifically optimized for power consumption of the software that runs the phone, but it’s the hardware and OS and userland software that makes chicks wet when they use the phone. I’ve never met a hot chick who uses an Android phone: it’s the blue text box we really pay for. Can’t be that green loser. Be like Apple, don’t be like Google.

Chicks perceive top guys as being conversationally clever, and “I’m a millionaire” isn’t conversationally clever. She’ll figure that out on her own, if or when she needs to. Guys drop lines like hooks. Experienced guys learn to expect what chicks are going to ask (chicks are predictable) like “What do you do?” The best answer may not be the straightforward one (notice how few straightforward, informational conversations chicks have, and how few of them are scientists, engineers, etc.). Lines are hooks, and coming up with good stuff is like not letting the beat drop in a song. People are dying for a resolution. Building tension is knowing when to resolve and when to be intriguing. Regarding “What do you do?”, it’s often a good idea to play with the conventional notion we’re defined by our work. The real high-status thing to do is violate norms in the right way. Two dudes wear hoodies, loser and billionaires. (Maybe three, artists.) If you can signal you’re more like the billionaire than the loser, you’re signaling right. She needs to get it. And you never know if it’s the right violation of social norms and expectations until you try. It’s like getting a chick to have an affair with you. Until you pull the trigger, you never really know whether she’s mostly bored and wants attention.

Don’t get confused about what “top” man means. Modern women make their own money. There are many hierarchies, and what guys think will “work” often doesn’t. Women want peak experiences, peak feelings, strong emotions, guys who “get” them… things that guys who truly learn game, know, and can deliver, and guys who “valuemaxx” often don’t.

Author: The Red Quest

How can we live and be in society?

12 thoughts on “The false mystique of the “top guy,” and what revealed preferences show women really want”

  1. A top guy is a guy who gets laid consistently and who women want to fuck. This can be facilitated any number of ways…ultimately, however, it’s always going to rely on two things far more than any others:

    A) his level of physical attractiveness.
    B) how strong his Game is.

    What guys who advocate TRP often confuse is the mission/wealth mantra being attractive to women. The mission and wealth are for YOU, and I’d argue they help enable one to become a top guy. But the idea that wealth alone is what chicks are after just isn’t really true anymore. Nor, as RQ writes above, do they really care what you do for work or the world. What they care about are WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR THEM. Are you fun, attractive, sexy, entertaining? That’s what women want–those looking long term might care a bit more about money, but it’s still a secondary attribute for a top guy. Why? Because a truly top guy is always running dread, whether he knows it or not, because SHE KNOWS he can fuck other chicks and that other chicks want to fuck him. I recently came across a UPS driver who does nothing but smoke pot and play video games, but has two 8s fighting over him. That’s a top guy. Unconventional yes, but he’s doing something those women are attracted to, and in the end that’s all that matters.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Nice post. Girls just want to have fun. Of all the wealthy men I know who are cleaning up with women, none of them are getting laid solely on the status derived by their money. Personality, lifestyle and a reputation of sexual success all play their part.

    Hey, RQ. Would you be able to recommend a solid source for learning about the nutrition required to reach peak fitness levels? I’ve lost a bunch of weight and been hitting the gym hard, but I’m ignorant of nutrition.

    You seem like the man to ask.


    1. Not an expert on nutrition, and a lot of nutrition appears to be about knowing what NOT to do (eat sugar and other simple carbs, and developing strategies that you can actually execute and stick to.

      My impression is that a lot of people do a ton of reading on nutrition, but don’t learn how to cook or otherwise set up systems that they can sustainably execute over time. “OMG, what’s my ideal ratio of complex carbs to fats to protein?” they think, or “are walnuts or almonds ‘better?'” (both are great), spending all day Sunday trying to find possible answers, and then come Tuesday they need to get lunch and only fast food is nearby so fuck it.

      For most people, learning how to cook and execute good meal prep seems more important than optimal, peak fitness. And learning how to reset your palate. If you’ve trained your palate on sugar, simple carbs, chicken fingers, pizza, hamburgers, beer, and soda, food that’s going to be nutritionally good for you will be very hard to do, initially. Once you reset your palate, the idea of drinking an 8oz soda, let alone the 20oz sodas that are common today, will be repugnant. Although I still like pizza and pastries, sue me.

      Food that is simple to prepare and can be repeated pretty easily, like roasted vegetables, is much better than complicated food you’ll realistically not do.

      I could bleat on about this subject, not sure there’s an optimal source because usually “nutrition” also means “learning to cook.” Like this guy will write posts about how much canned tuna he eats. I want to get behind it, nutritionally, but I… can’t eat it routinely. Tried it, keep trying it periodically, can’t really force it down. Can do things like tuna salad, but that has mayo, optimal nutrition says no mayo.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Thanks for the response. I’m definitely picking up a copy of The Case Against Sugar. I’ve been able to eliminate all junk food from my life with the exception of diet sodas/artificial sweeteners in my coffee, etc.

        Aspartame has it’s hook in me! So, yeah, a palate reset is in the works. Love the blog. Thanks!


  3. I don’t have much to say, but this was another good one. I’ve definitely seen the same… you don’t need to be rich or have money at all for that matter. As RPD also points out in his comment. One thing that was on my mind when I was writing “Become a Top Guy or Die Trying”, was how do I get seen? How can I attract without always being on the hunt? Becoming top guy seemed like the way. For me, more than money it meant gaining some skill in some domain and then gaining social respect, but I can very easily see how that it could be something that doesn’t matter to women.

    After some thought, I also think my desire to become a “top guy” is me overcompensating for not being able to make them feel. I need to figure that one out, and also how I can be more polarizing in a good way. I don’t think volume will be an issue for me much longer, so I’ll be doing some more experimenting.


    1. was how do I get seen? How can I attract without always being on the hunt?

      Unless you are legitimately famous or extremely good looking or something, you are always hunting, IME. I should say, “I am always hunting.” Yeah, you’ll get occasional social circle references, local fame, whatever… but, in my experience, 99% of guys hunt.


      1. Yea, I’m not the best at writing and collecting my thoughts. I said the wrong thing here.
        >>How can I attract without always being on the hunt?

        It’s not that I don’t want to hunt. I’m happy to make offers. I’m trying to find a way to attract better looking girls/better “quality” girls so that I can get in front of them and make my pitch. I think that’s going to take some work on my side. Practicing on girls I’m not into has proven to be fruitless. I’m not into it and they can tell. I’m no longer befriending the girls I’m attracted to. However as life changes and I get older, I have less opportunities to be around them.

        In the mean time I’ll work on things I have control over. Sometimes I have to focus on other things so I don’t drive myself madd. When I’m ready and recharged, I’ll go out and see if anything bites my line. I know I might seem disheartened and daft or whatever, but I’m going to keep trying at my pace until something clicks for me.


  4. Wow… thank God that not all men are this vapid and dense at the same time. This is an article written by a grown man I’m assuming? Or was it a teenage boy? How can I tell? Using word like “chicks” to describe women? Looking at what have been male dominated industries simply because of (discrimination). There is nothing, NOTHING, attractive about men like you and the ones in these comments. You’ve got it so so so wrong … it is no wonder that “hot chicks” like myself have and will continue to reject you. Maybe the reason your so daft is because the only women you are able to keep around you for more than an hour are not the sharpest tools in the box. You want to know what my biggest turn on is , and many, MANY other women attractive by societal standards or not? INTELLEGENCE / intellectual interest/ monetary success/ attractiveness… in that order. We actually despise “game” after a couple of bad relationship with men that play games… which is inherently the same thing. And we live for intelligent conversation. And before you scream FEMINIST! I am not that, I prefer a man lead the household, be an active father, pay for things, open doors. Maybe you “bros” need to work on THOSE things. Maybe, just maybe, you are failing because you are none of the things we want. This was a gross demonstration. I’m glad you reminded me to be hyper diligent to stay away from men like you.


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