Passionate love and companionate love for guys

Got some feedback on this, “Short Dancer, maybe the last girl I was in intense love with (while ago now),” and it seems to be off-brand for me, based on the feedback… but the reactions have alerted me to some oversight… there are at least two kinds of love, passionate love and companionate love (may have got the terms slightly wrong but the idea is right). Passionate love is in the intensely erotic and sexualized love that often characterizes the beginning of relationships, crushes, etc. It’s intense, all-consuming, like a drug, etc. Companionate love is closer to friendship, involving kindness, compatibility, similar values, etc. These two are not completely exclusive… it’s possible to find someone highly arousing but also companionate. Or companionate but also arousing, if you like that better.

They don’t have to go together.

But they can.

I may have misjudged Short Dancer, because I thought she was more hypergamous and more interested in being an experimental s**t than she might be in reality. It’s hard to say because I don’t know a lot about what she’s really been up to, so for all I know she has a secret side guy besides her official guy. But she seems to be more interested in monogamy and a steady relationship than I thought (unless there’s something I don’t know)… but our experience together was primarily passionate. Very passionate.

Passionate love is wonderful… it’s also not very sustainable… after you’ve f**ked a woman hundreds of times, passionate love will probably begin to decline as you acclimate to her and her to you. What’s left when the overwhelming drug exhilaration goes away? Until it does, you don’t know… you probably can’t know… you’ll probably be blinded by her beauty and the feel of her p***y… a lot of the better long term relationships with kids can start with passionate love and decay into companionate love. Not impossible for that happen. But it’s also possible that most women with whom you experience passionate love, are not suitable for long-term relationships. And some women who are great for long-term relationships don’t generate the most intense sexual passion.

“Picking up girls” skills and “long-term relationships” skills have some overlap but a guy who wants to f**k a lot should focus on the first set of skills, not the second set. Lots of guys have neither set of skills and just take what they can get. Probably the majority of guys, in reality. Most guys writing about the game focus on pickup… as they should… it is hard to have a satisfying long-term relationship without having options and without knowing that the woman you’re with can leave and you’ll be okay. Women prefer guys who the women know can get other women. Guys are going to have lots of trouble having good long-term relationships with companionate elements unless they can pick up chicks.

I’m bringing this up because it’s possible to have a long term relationship with family and kids with a woman who goes from passionate love to more companionate love. It happens, yes. But… a lot of divorces, nasty breakups, etc. happen when someone, or two people, mistake passionate love for good long-term compatibility. Short Dancer was a great passionate love but I think the age gap and other factors made us unsustainable… beyond that, I wasn’t quite looking for that kind of thing at that time.

A lot of broken relationships are founded on passion, and male desperation. Almost all regular romantic/sexual mainstream advice focuses on companionate relationships… those are fine, but the advice is almost always half-blind. I don’t emphasize companionate relationships because the commentary on them is so readily available… but almost no mainstream advice focuses on maximizing passionate relationships… or is even comfortable with talking about them. Players are rare because we value passion and strive to create it in both men and women, while the mainstream seeks to tamp down and deny passion. I want to acknowledge passionate love… but also acknowledge companionate love, here and now. Companionate love can exist without you reader personally wanting to engage in it right now. Get lots of passionate experience first.

In many good long term relationships, passion decays gracefully into companionate love… in a lot of bad relationships, the need to chase passion predominates. One interesting question to me is whether some aspects of non-monogamy can square that circle. Not perfectly, but a little. I’ve seen people do it.

If the relationship is too companionate, especially for younger women, she’ll get bored, and we know that Boredom = death. But women vary in how easily they’re bored, how hypergamous they are, etc., and women who aren’t easily bored are better for long-term relationships. Some women are also incapable of companionate love. I have met women in their 50s and 60s who are still chasing the D like teens.

I’m in favor of being in love. Love is fun. I’m against marriage but in favor of love. You can also love a chick w/o being monogamous.

Advertisers can’t sell products with companionate love, for the most part, so we see passionate love depicted. But companionate love is a thing too.

Many players and s**ts love passionate love and will eliminate partners as the passion subsides. If you commit to a woman while you are in the throes of passionate love, you are setting yourself up to fail, and a lot of guys do this, then post online about how chicks are evil, while taking zero responsibility for their own actions and choices.

Most of the mistakes I write about, like mistaking passion for compatibility, are mistakes I’ve made.

How not to be boring on dates

You know boredom = death. You don’t know how to not be boring. “Talk Less. Listen More. Here’s How. Lessons in the art of listening, from a C.I.A. agent, a focus group moderator and more.”

Good listeners ask good questions. One of the most valuable lessons I’ve learned as a journalist is that anyone can be interesting if you ask the right questions. That is, if you ask truly curious questions that don’t have the hidden agenda of fixing, saving, advising, convincing or correcting. Curious questions don’t begin with “Wouldn’t you agree…?” or “Don’t you think…?” and they definitely don’t end with “right?” The idea is to explore the other person’s point of view, not sway it.

Often it’s better to make statements than ask questions.

You also want to avoid asking people personal and appraising questions like “What do you do for a living?” or “What part of town do you live in?” or “What school did you go to?” or “Are you married?” This line of questioning is not an honest attempt to get to know who you’re talking to so much as rank them in the social hierarchy. It’s more like an interrogation and, as a former C.I.A. agent told me, interrogation will get you information, but it won’t be credible or reliable.

In social situations, peppering people with judgmental questions is likely to shift the conversation into a superficial, self-promoting elevator pitch. In other words, the kinds of conversations that make you want to leave the party early and rush home to your dog.

Instead, ask about people’s interests. Try to find out what excites or aggravates them — their daily pleasures or what keeps them up at night. Ask about the last movie they saw or for the story behind a piece of jewelry they’re wearing. Also good are expansive questions, such as, “If you could spend a month anywhere in the world, where would you go?”

Research indicates that when people who don’t know each other well ask each other these types of questions, they feel more connected than if they spent time together accomplishing a task. They are the same kinds of questions listed in the widely circulated article “36 Questions That Lead to Love” and are similar to the conversation starters suggested by the Family Dinner Project, which encourages device-free and listening-focused meals.

These are things players teach guys to do. Many guys are technical, focused on achievement, and blind to most of the emotions/feelings chicks have. Conversationally, many guys see in black and white, while chicks see in full color. Most chicks are not results-oriented, they’re feelings-oriented, so when guys try to talk about whatever they’re learning or their latest achievement, most chicks zone out. It’s even worse when the guy’s only achievement is from playing video games

There are exceptions. If a guy has learned something about dancing, acroyoga, theater, singing, etc., a lot of chicks will be interested in that. Lots of chicks are into gossip, but gossip is dangerous, if you make her think you’re not part of the secret society or are going to judge her sexually. Gossip is also irrelevant from online dates with girls who you don’t interact with socially.

Good conversationalists get that way through practice. If you’re the typical online social retard it’s going to take you a while to get there. You practice a little bit every day and after a couple years you get pretty good. Like everything else.

Socially skilled players also know when to break rapport. If she’s rambling on about her family, treating you like a girlfriend, etc., or extensively engaging in long, too-safe topics, it can be useful to break rapport, spike her sexually, etc. Every situation is different and no guy does this perfectly all the time. As usual, Krauser’s textbooks have loads of details on this subject and much more depth than I can offer. I have heard many chicks complain about boring conversations with guys and many guys complain that chicks seem bored and bitchy… rather than blaming chicks for being who they are or blaming guys for being who we are, I suggest pragmatically upping your skills, instead of complaining.

BDSM dates & sex skills & online dating

Most guys still don’t know and can’t do BDSM, but Yoylo, who is working the game says, “I know it sounds a weird request – but how would you stage a sex date with a girl who has complained all her life about sex not being rough enough? I’m planning the date with the MILF for next week.”

Not odd/weird… there are lots of things to do… if you have space and money for a spanking bench, that is a nice touch (etsy seems to be the place to buy them, don’t know why, but check your local sex shops too). Many apartments/flats are too small for spanking benches. In thinking about BDSM… do the slow/teasing leadup… most girls complain that guys go too fast and are in too much of a hurry… so do the opposite. Sex skills for guys, and this one about vibrators, are also good posts with actionable advice applicable to BDSM dates.

Once you have read those two… you’ll understand some basics, so we’ll start when the chick is back at your apartment. If it’s one-on-one, start with kissing her, holding her neck, etc. When she is ready, collar her and put wrist and ankle restraints on her. You might use them, you might not. I wouldn’t gag her the first time, tempting as it is.

Have nipple clamps (key) and a collar.

Be ready with a butt plug and lube.

Talk dirty, tell her she’s a slut, etc.

As you are kissing her, strip her as typical when leading to sex. Play with her nipples and see how sensitive they are. If they’re very sensitive, she probably won’t like clamps. If they’re less sensitive, she’s more likely to. Don’t use clamps immediately, but when she’s very warmed up see if she’s interested in having them on her.

Eventually she’ll only be wearing her panties (assuming she’s wearing any). While she’s still standing, bend her over partially and begin spanking her. If you’ve never spanked a woman before, “How to spank a woman” in a search engine will give you good resources for this. Alternate spanking and caressing. Pay attention to her sounds and body. You may go back and forth with a paddle, or with a flogger.

It’s also reasonable to engage a leather paddle. Move to a wood one if you think she is not reaching her terminus. If you are swinging a wood paddle like a baseball bat and connecting with her ass… and it is not enough… then she is going into places I (personally) don’t want want to go. It’s getting too close to something like torture instead of bondage. There are chicks who go for that… I find it to be a real turnoff when she’s into that level of pain/suffering. For newbie chicks, hands and paddles are usually sufficient.

At some point you want to slide your hands in and begin touching her clit. If you’ve spanked her well and her body responds well, she will probably already be wet. This can go on for as little as four or five minutes or as long as 20 or 30, intermittently, with some gentle caressing in between.

Move her to the bed at some point, or the bench mentioned earlier. Like with sex, it’s not a bad idea to move spaces once or twice. Not so much as to break flow, but enough to keep her from getting bored or too acclimated. And go a little more slowly than you think. It’s tempting to just ratchet up rapidly. If you sense she’s getting bored or restless, ratchet up more quickly. For a lot of chicks, anticipation is as good or better than the execution.

Play with the restraints and with blindfolds. When she’s been spanked well, tie her to the bed and try going down on her and you will likely get a great response, for example. At some point just f**k her as you normally would, but incorporate spanking and choking into it. Hold her collar, lightly, perhaps. This can be dangerous because you don’t want to hurt her windpipe, so be careful with it.

Some chicks who like needles and who like a level of pain and bruising I’m not into. This chick would send me pictures of her entire ass and upper thighs turning black with bruising. I would hit her HARD with paddles, and she seemed to… not shrug it off, but I was not touching her innermost space. I consciously decided she goes too far for me… I don’t want to really beat up a woman, or leave her like that chick liked. I don’t want to mess with needles and blood. I have seen chicks who like that and I’m just not interested and don’t find it erotic. These girls are pretty rare.

Like with sex or symphonies, it’s good to have some mini crescendos, then back off, then build up again.

Like with business, proper preparation is ideal. For chicks, guys make things “just happen” so that the chick doesn’t have to do anything besides pick her outfit and bend over. Chicks live in a world where they just show up… and the guy has done the work… so do the work. Feminism’s noise about “equality” is bullshit. Most chicks want an experienced guy to show them the way.

So that’s my step-by-step towards a chick who has never had it rough enough. This is a scaleable action plan, because some chicks just want a little light spanking and paddling, which they’ve never had from their pussy, feminist boyfriends. Some chicks want extreme pain that I don’t want to get to. Most chicks won’t know where they are until you take them there, and ideally the chick will say “yellow” if you get her to that end state. A good dom is monitoring the chick carefully and backing off when necessary.

I don’t think Yoylo, who asked, really needed the above… it sounds like he’d gotten it all figured out before my reply and was prepared, but he was also ready to change based on the feel of the mood and other contingencies. Being prepared decreases any stress or anxiety in the moment… I have done a little description of prep to friends who say that it sounds like a lot of work. But then I point out that advance work improves the moment because you don’t have to worry about where the paddle is, whether the cuffs are available, how to tie her up, how to release her, etc.

Also, you don’t have to use the equipment at all, or not all of it, every time. You can just use what feels right and if she’s fatigued or you’re just done, you can have it and not need it. Like firearms and condoms, better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

My sense is that the BDSM market is not tapped properly online, unlike the general market. This guy, Andy has/had a BDSM Tinder profile that seems to have worked well for him. Will it work for you? No idea… if I had to try online dating again I would give this a shot, given how terrible most online dating has become. You have to decide for yourself.

How to frame and execute nude photo shoots with women

A player, Mr. V., who knows about my nude photography art habit, asks how I do it… I’ve talked about the principles before, but now for some detail…

  • After sex, I tell her to pose, or to hold, then I grab the camera and start shooting. Sometimes I’ll tell her the light looks good or she looks good right there, that kind of thing that makes her purr. Something to make her think that it’s not random jerk-off material but artistic. Girls have been going for the “You look special just now, spread your legs” line since primitive men first took charcoal to cave walls. It worked for Picasso, it worked for Lucian Freud, it worked well enough for that weird artistic guy with long hair in undergrad art classes, it will work fine for you if you’re high value, have good game, and the girl is in your frame. Sometimes I’ll say something about her being especially attractive. After sex, women are eager to hear they’re still sexy, desirable, and good, and that the guy doesn’t dislike them during post-nut clarity. Snuggling, cuddling, and bonding during this period is important. She needs male attention to come back down to the regular world. And… they are still in a sex-positive mood and receptive to the camera’s eye.
  • From there I just kind of assume the sale and turn on the camera while we’re fucking or beforehand. Or I’ll say, “We should make a sex tape,” then do it. I almost never ask explicitly… very much try to assume the sale. Most women will go along with this in the moment, particularly if they’re already turned on.
  • Because the woman is turned on already, that may be why a lot of chicks will ask the next day for me to delete the photos… she gets caught up in the moment while aroused. The next day, in a cold state, she worries about her reputation, shame, etc. What if it gets out? I am the kind of gentleman who will tell her that I deleted them.
  • The number who refuse pics altogether is small… but out there. It’s all in the game.
  • Sometimes I start out with only her backside (no face) and then move forward. Like with a lot of things, chicks might start out uncomfortable with things but then inch into full comfort. The more invested she is, the more likely she’ll want to serve as your muse and model.
  • Having a true standalone camera produces superior results and also feels different to the woman than a guy with a phone. She feels more like a desired model.
  • Some chicks will show the results to their friends. This seems like a demonstration of higher value (DHV).
  • If she’s a hard no, let it go. A playful disposition will often help her overcome initial shyness.
  • It is good to learn basic photography.

If she’s a hard “no” accept that. There is “yes,” “maybe” “soft (negotiable) no” and “hard no.” Negotiation is the subject of many books so I won’t write a whole thing about it now. Recognizing the hard no and the soft no is a job of the player.

When a woman sends nudes before sex it’s a bad sign, in my experience. Still not 100% sure why but I have some theories in the other post. I personally haven’t gotten a lot of this but I’ve seen a little. I also don’t request nudes from women, almost ever. I think requesting phone nudes is a demonstration of lower value (DLV) and also most women are inept photographers with inept cameras, poor light, and poor composition.

Responsibility and later seduction. Internal congruence

Another topic that gets no play in the Red Pill and seduction communities, cause most guys don’t get to this later stage, it is not good to trifle with women who are heavily investing in you. This damages the woman and while it is psychologically appealing to the guy (it’s nice to have the attention and desire you can return… or not), but it creates bad feelings and outcomes. Power over women who invest happens after the guy gets game and deploys it effectively, meaning that most guys never get it and this post is not for them, so this subject confuses them, like stories about a culture they’ve never visited and can’t believe exists.

I know the logical counter to this point (about the wisdom of refusing or discouraging investment that won’t be reciprocated)… “But chicks do this all the time!” True, true. But mature chicks don’t encourage male investment and male suitors who don’t interest them. Immature chicks… greedy chicks… they will, and that’s why so many younger guys have problems with the “friend zone” and perceived female uncertainty. Younger guys don’t follow the algorithm and don’t effectively sort girls into ones who might f**k and ones who won’t. I didn’t either when I was young & stupid, not to worry. I was afraid of “no,” when “no” is a gift, a gift of my time & attention so that I can direct them consciously into better things.

Mature guys… also don’t spend a lot of time and investment in women who are unlikely to be lovers. If a woman isn’t interested… the guy withdraws and finds a woman who is. Many chicks, if attention and gifts are foisted on them by inept men, will accept those… but if you are foisting gifts on a woman who hasn’t earned them, then you kinda deserve what you get. Immature guys believe gifts and attention should be rewarded with sex… when it’s actually closer to the other way around. No one in our female-dominated culture discusses to this.

This gets me to my point… when a woman’s emotions and sex habits are connecting and converging into you… it is not good to trifle with her, lead her on, and jerk her around. You will damage her, and inflict needless cruelty, and for what? If you have decent game, the sex part may be challenging, but it shouldn’t be infinitely so.

Some dysfunctional women prematurely invest when they shouldn’t, or they can’t help themselves because the man is unusual and matches their interest, or is much higher SMV than they are. If she does that… it is not your fault. But you should let go, want to let go, chicks who are deeply converting but who you don’t fancy in that way. At least tell them that you’re not going to be their boyfriend but can be their lover. Set expectations.

This is emerging from my own experiences and from conversation with a player who is interested in non-monogamy and who has found a woman who has also been searching for this her entire life, searching for a way to reconcile mind and body, emotions and physicality. Like libido girl and a number of others I’ve met, she craves the novelty of new sex… but wants a relationship too. Most guys, if they advance from casual sex into something more structured with a woman, won’t want a woman like this (they really want a woman who will be monogamous to them). There are a lot of pretend non-monogamous guys, and even more strictly monogamous guys (when you get down to it). Women who are sexually adventurous but with hearts and the desire to pair-bond… it’s actually not easy for them. Even with monogamous women, their real, true, and full investment is intense. For the bulk of guys who have never experienced the intensity of female emotional and sexual investment…. this issue will be invisible. Like “how to end it” with a woman. It’s advanced stuff. Beginners mistake compassion for weakness. Don’t worry, I did too, once.

I’m against being mean to people. Yes, women will sometimes be mean to you, they will try to take value from you without giving it in return. Yes, it is sometimes appropriate to be mean to people, or direct in a way that is seen as mean. But what is perceived as mean or cruel is often just a balancing of the scales of value.

Notice what I am NOT doing. I am not arguing against casual sex (it would be funny if I did, given my history). I am not arguing against deepening relationships with women. I am not arguing that women are innocent damsels (they are not, and the innocent damsel trope is a lie men tell themselves in order to be p***y… in the real world, almost no one is “innocent”). “Beyond casual sex” is more fun than just f**king strangers in my view. But… I am arguing that it’s bad for you and for the woman to let a woman deeply invest in your and convert to you, if you don’t set expectations, or if you plan to just let her dangle. Cut her loose and let her invest in someone else. The world is already harsh and full of bitterness…. no need to make it harsher and more bitter. It’s bad for the man’s subconscious. Keeping your subconscious aligned with your accessible consciousness is a part of frame, a part of being congruent that, again, no one talks about. Low status guys, f**ked up guys, are incongruent, and their low value and incongruence messes with their inner game. Higher-status, higher-class guys maintain congruence and have a keen sense of loose equality in terms of value given and value taken. This is getting a bit on the “hippie” side of things, about consciousness development, but I think that’s where the the higher levels of game live. Levels a lot of guys never hit, cause they can’t get past the lower levels.

Most women, by the way, never access higher levels of consciousness. If they do, they are already post-wall, and it is too late for them to access those levels via sexuality. Most younger women rely on men to get them there, and most men disappoint. That’s part of the reason we see the discord we see.

Seek for the higher levels. Discourage investment where it’s not warranted. If you see signs of her emotional investment, decide consciously if you want to respond in kind or keep her at a distance. The beginning parts of the game are important but so is the middle and end, where few guys live and where almost no guys writing online discuss.

The more time you spend around women, the more you realize most of them are basically irresponsible and want someone else to make decisions for them. This is why we have the crazy Title IX man-hunting tribunal in the United States and why so many women distance themselves from their sexual choices. This is also why so few women make it to the top of corporate and other hierarchies, because an individual has to be intensely responsible for his choices if he’s going to be a leader, not just a follower—something that most women can’t do. Men who have a lot of experience with women also learn that most women like to follow and so men are reluctant to put women in leadership roles, for good reason. Almost no feminists will admit this, leading to the absurd statements about women in companies that shrieking harpies propagate in the media.

I actually have no problem with women running companies or whatever, but I don’t think you’ll ever see as many women in leadership roles because it’s contrary to baseline female psychology. If a woman wants to be responsible for a large company and has the personality and intellect to do so, then that’s dandy. It’s just unlikely. Most women want men to take responsibility for them… and when she lets a guy into her soul, and then he chucks her aside, she’s wounded. Try not to let her do that. A guy who starts off low status might want to be mean, as revenge… but he’s really taking revenge on himself, for putting up with behavior he shouldn’t have. No reason to do that. The world is hard enough.

Group sex and the shift from scarcity to abundance

An anonymous player I know says,

Group sex has fundamentally shifted my thoughts about Red Pill and seduction. I cannot understate the change in me. It really does feel like a shift from scarcity to abundance.

I know this feeling and yet no other writing players I’m aware of are tapping non-monogamy and groups. Threesome and group sex fantasies are very common among both men and women, as women themselves attest, but most women are passive and lack the leadership necessary to make their fantasies reality. Very few women know guys who can pull off executing these fantasies, so, if you become that guy, you are by definition not a commodity guy. Women are bombarded by commodity guys with basic or no sex skills, and a guy who can unlock their dirtier fantasies is not that guy. If you tap into the sex club world, you will also end up unlocking a pool of girls who are pre-selected for liking to f**k a lot… and then you can f**k them.

Women have the fantasy, but the group-sex reality usually needs deep coordination between the participants, especially for MFM. The threesome management guide I wrote probably understates the degree to which coordination is important. Ideally all the players should cooperate and coordinate, but the temptation to defect remains potent in many threesome situations, and it often happens that one party is less active during some parts than the other two parties. This can lead to feelings of isolation and being left out, particularly because most threesomes happen between an established couple and a third person. The third person often brings new relationship energy (NRE) in with them.

After an MFM or FMF, the aftercare for the girl is super important. Many girls will experience sub-drop, and the girl may be susceptible to feelings of worthlessness, low sexual marketplace value, disgust, regret, etc. The girl may need reaffirmation that she is a good person, that sexuality is fun and normal, that she is not dirty or degraded, and that she’s not just a f**k-toy for men. That means she probably needs to be held, cuddled, chatted with, etc. The man should check in with her the next day, in person if possible. It’s a good idea to do a non-sexual or low-sexual date as soon as possible, like getting coffee or going for a walk. This allows her to process the intensity of the group sex situation and feel that her normal life is not disturbed by what she may feel are depraved fantasies.

All of these challenges can be overcome and mitigated, but the novice group-sex initiate often doesn’t anticipate them. I don’t think I anticipated them effectively. I also didn’t anticipate how it was possible to combine non-monogamy, game, and sex clubs to unlock abundance and commodification.

Another player says,

I thought you need to be an experienced player to do threesomes and group sex and now I organised MFM is less than four months in a game with a first regular after four months dry spell. Wtf is going on?

I can understand it… and that is part of the reason I like it… and also part of the reason I think the rest of my game has improved… I genuinely don’t give a fuck if any individual girl is into me or not, which makes them more into me, and protects my vibe/state during cold streaks. I know that I’ll end up getting laid one way or another… so if she wants these peak experiences, she needs to enter my world. That’s kind of the attitude, or the frame. Many women reject the gift… and that’s fine… most people’s lives are kind of crappy.

I want to emphasize that I care a lot about the women in my life who I choose and who choose me, and with whom I have a tight bond. Many guys get hurt or angry when a strange women rejects them. That’s the wrong way to think about it, although I understand how desperation and horniness drives guys to think that way. The woman who offers a swift rejection gives you the gift of your time and attention, to better deploy them. Time is always finite, and one modern tragedy is the way people waste it on social media.

The player who organised the MFM also substituted (some) knowledge for experience. That is the beauty and magic of books… they accelerate learning. Reading a book is no perfect substitute for experience, as should be obvious, but the player who’s read it has the intellectual and social framework for implementing group sex and non-monogamy ideas. I had to build up those things from scratch.

I think most guys think threesomes “just happen” after a bunch of drinking and lucky circumstances. You are taking “just happens” and making an industrial process or algorithm out of it. Once you have the fundamental, you know what to do. Discovering the algorithm is hard, but implementing it is (relatively) easy. The free book allows guys to get past the innovation phase and towards the engineering/implementation phase.

One theme you’ve seen running through this blog is about markets, supply, and demand. Magnum tweeted out The Dating Market: Thesis Overview, about dating market dynamics… “A conservative estimate of the percentage of new relationships begun online in 2019 is at least 65%, but likely over 75%.” “The social costs of rejecting a potential mate are now likewise effectively zero, making introductions within existing social groups (friends, family friends, church, etc.) structurally inferior propositions given significant social and reputational risk in the event of an adverse outcome.”

The age dynamic creates significant inter-age cohort competition in the female population and increased overall competition in the male population. This can be conceptualized as the market becoming more efficient, which naturally leads to many market participants anecdotally expressing unhappiness with the status quo as they incorrectly identify an inability to produce low effort excess returns as the circumstances being “unfair.” Basically, the same thing is happening in the dating market as is happening in the Hedge Fund market: things are getting more efficient, very few are pleased about it, and there are lots of strange advice books, blogs, and videos coming out.

But for top guys, women become a commodity… something this author has missed.

We could say, “Sometimes it seems to me that a good unified theory of modern society’s anxieties might be ‘everything is too efficient and it’s exhausting.'” Dating is more efficient in some ways, but less efficient in others. Most chicks can’t accurately assess a guy through his online bullshit. Most guys however can accurately assess about how hot a chick is. So chicks have lots of choices without good ways of navigating those choices. This seems like a detour, but the market for basic guys is flooded.

The market for guys who can make a woman’s sexual fantasies come true remains thin. Most guys can’t do this. I’m teaching guys how not to be like most guys. I don’t know, maybe in 10 years all guys will have threesomes and group sex in their quivers, and it won’t be a significant differentiator. For right now, today, it sure is. I am helping guys get out of the efficient markets and into inefficient markets for making fantasies happen. If every guy is on Tinder he will be judged accurately and harshly as a commodity, but if he is doing daygame, building his value, and offering enticing non-commodity experiences, well then he’s going to offer unusual value.

I also think most guys and chicks are doing online dating poorly, but that is a rant for another time.

New thread, a player had an MFM and then worked through the aftermath of it,

We did a debrief today and discussed the good, the bad and the ugly of the MFM. One lesson learnt for me was having a second crack at [girl] while [player 1] was in the shower. We cleared that up and agreed no more sex unless he or I are back in the room with our main girl.

Personally I’m not worried about sex happening with the main girl while I’m not in the room, provided that I trust the other guy. But I understand where these rules come from. In addition, applying this kind of business logic or practice to sex is also how to build skills rapidly. Most guys, especially younger guys who have not been in the work world, are not familiar with these kinds of practices. There are different formal methodologies for this, like six sigma, but they are pretty similar. Smart businesses know they are key to rapidly building skills and improving product, service, etc. There is no reason they cannot or should not also be applied to seduction… or in this case to group sex. Most of us have ego defenses that inhibit us from getting honest negative feedback, but the good/bad/ugly mechanism or mechanisms like it help us overcome ego defenses and work to maximize skill improvement.

After intense group sex experiences it’s often good to run through these kinds of things to determine what limits and boundaries are there as well as how to make them better next time. Each individual and couple needs to work out their own rules and principles, and I can’t do that for them.

Overall, these players are hitting many of the expected milestones, so it’s positive to see that my experience doesn’t seem to be unique but instead is part of a pattern that is replicable by others.

How she behaves towards other people is one day how she’ll behave towards you

How she behaves towards other people is one day how she’ll behave towards you.

Is she mean to other people?

One day she’s going to be mean to you, probably in the same way she’s mean to others.

Does she like to steal? Does she rationalize stealing?

I’ve run into girls who like taking alcohol from parties, or silverware from restaurants, that kind of thing… they seem proud of it. I haven’t seen the deeper levels of this behavior because the stealing is enough for me to distance myself from them.

Does she somehow always have drama with her friends, bosses, family?

One day she’s going to have drama with you, and by the way the police and courts are going to believe her, not you. Logically you can argue that this is not fair, but it’s true, and you need to protect yourself, not argue about notions of fairness.

Does she spend money poorly or earn money poorly?

One day she’s going to come to you for the money.

Does she tell you stories about kicking out some guy right after sex, for no good reason? Does she tell you stories about being mean to guys who are flirting with her? Those are things that are good to know, because you’re going to be her mean story one day and you should prepare appropriately. If she is proud of being mean to other people, one day she’s going to be proud of being mean to you.

Everyone has moments of untoward behavior, including me. If you somehow made a montage of my worst moments I would look bad. Things are grey, not black and white. But when you are building a model of a woman, or of anyone, take into account the red flags. I have been a low-down dirty dog. I’ve also been very effective and enabled experiences that would otherwise not have happened.

Other people are going to judge you the same way. I have lost people because of my interpersonal proclivities. That’s fine, it’s a cost of being alive and living a full life in my view. I do the things I do and pay the price for them, like we all do. But you should decide who you are and what kinds of things you’ll accept in people and what kinds of things you won’t. If you don’t, you’ll get what you get, and then you’ll bear the costs.