Podcast with Tom Torero and Anthony

I read Tom Torero’s book Daygame and in it he talks about his early wing, Anthony, who eventually leaves the game for whatever reason… probably a chick. Or burnout. But Anthony is back in this podcast. Listen to the whole thing.

Anthony is talking about burnout when he says, “If you overdo it [game], it can take you down.” I know that feeling. More often now I feel the void after sex. It’s more like looking into the abyss. I remember, in my 20s, reading about that sort of feeling and thinking, “What a load of shit. Dumbasses.” Now, here I am feeling the thing that I used to make fun of.

Anthony sounds like an interesting guy. He got a PhD, probably in finance. When I was young I also considered pursuing an academic path, as Antony actually did. I’m very happy I didn’t, especially given the miserable state of modern universities, but it’s notable how most guys writing game blogs have some academic or systematizing parts of their personalities. I’m guessing that players without those personality traits never write what they’re doing.

(I like player blogs: leave suggestions for new ones in the comments.)

Despite my feelings about the void, I don’t know what the alternative is. I’ve done some bleating about how I’m less excited about rogering chicks than I used to be. That bleating is true. But, at the same time… what else would I do? That is not a facetious or rhetorical question. I literally cannot think of anything more fun or meaningful than being in the game, however tenuously. Or anything I can reasonably do. It would be interesting to, for example, quit everything and go back to school to study aerospace engineering and try to become an engineer for SpaceX, but that is a very, very long jump from where I am now. I’m reluctant to throw away so many years of effort.

There is a part of me that wants to do just that, a part of me that feels like I’ve exhausted the major parts of game and my current work. I’m positioned well financially, but not so well that I can quit working forever. I’ve taken care to minimize expenses (that, plus an unwillingness to play Keeping Up With The Other Suburban Mommies, helped kill the relationship with my co-parent), but not to the extent that I’m totally financially independent. Could be there in five to ten years. At which point it will be too late to re-tool in a serious way.

Every day, at least five days a week, it is a good idea to get up and make a short list of things you want to accomplish that day. Every month or so, it is a good idea to write a list of things you want to accomplish that month. Every couple of months, things you want to accomplish that year. Do all that and stick to it and you will likely achieve what you want to achieve. Not everything (there will be slippage), but you will avoid pissing away a lot of days. This is true of work and of personal projects. Any individual day is insignificant, but the days add up. I did not invent this strategy and don’t recall where I first heard about it, but many companies and individuals use it, or variants of it.

Despite the preceding paragraphs, I feel like there is some new phase of my life coming up (writing this blog, now, instead of writing it five or ten years ago, when I had far more material, may be part of the change) and I don’t know what that change is. For most guys my age, that would likely be family, but, again, I’ve already been there and am not eager to do round #2. Though it is conceivable I will, somehow, at some point, likely under a more co-parenting arrangement than a traditional marriage or marriage-like arrangement.

Also… realistically… banging really hot chicks is amazing in the moment. Really, really amazing. The total pinnacle of existence, even when I feel empty after. When it’s really good, it’s a kind of peak experience. So there is that facet of life, and it’s one that I feel like a lot of other people miss. Or they sacrifice it for the sake of their families. Which is fine, and I respect that, but… damn. In the moment, man.

Some of Torero’s podcasts are too basic for my tastes, but this one I listened through. The notion of sparking, or creating an emotional moment in a chick’s otherwise dreary life, is also good.

I do wish Torero would go more into his own inner darkness. Maybe he has and I missed that. I have read most of Krauser’s books, and they seem to present a more complex view of Torero (that’s one way to put it) than the one I perceive in the podcast. Many people who get far outside the mainstream and into game have some inner demons propelling them forward, away from conventional society. I like the players who will go into the dark. When I’m with a girl I try to get into the darkness in her soul too. Most girls like it when a guy will do that in a non-judgmental way. Sometimes I do find that a girl is too messed up for me, but it is actually better to discover that sooner rather than later.

I take it back: I think I have to cut her loose

I mentioned this chick, a long-term lover, in the context of recurring revenue:

One of them I like a lot for sex, but I’m thinking about ending it with her because she’s too unstable in some ways. She hates her job yet can’t seem to get out of it. She’s on a bunch of prescription drugs, including one that’s supposed to be a short-term drug, but she’s been on it for years (I don’t know what the fuck is the matter with her doctor).

But, on the other hand, she’s bisexual and a very reliable threesome partner. If she says she’s going to be somewhere, she goes there. We’ve had numerous threesomes and foursomes together because she’s so sexually uninhibited.

And then followed-up:

a functional, attractive bi chick who shows up and likes to hookup with both girls and other couples… that’s rare. However much the drugs and some other aspects of her personality bug me, when I re-read what I wrote, I think, “Why formally break it off? We can see what happens.”

Last night we met for a typical, one-on-one sex date… and she didn’t want to have sex! Second time this has happened in recent memory. She lives not so far from me, but not that close either. There are some aspects of her personality I like a lot, but a lot that I find irritating. If we’re having good sex, the irritation fades and the bad things are tolerable or unnoticeable. If not, it’s foregrounded. She apparently wasn’t on one or two of her meds, and that affected her. In which case, why didn’t she cancel? One possible, logical answer is that she sees me as a friend at least as much as a lover.

Any experienced guy who reads the preceding sentence should be hearing horror movie music in his mind. It’s like watching someone go into the house where the killer waits with a knife.

She is much younger than me, in her mid-20s, though she goes for much older guys. In my view she is getting too old to behave this way, or be on drugs. Sometimes she reads as older and more mature than she is, and sometimes she reads as being 14. I’m re-reading what I said, and the word “reliable” pops out. She has gone from being very reliable, a desirable trait to me, to being unreliable. Which means it’s probably time to let it go.

In writing this post, I’m also thinking about how few players write about ending it. There’s a lot written about openings, about overcoming anxiety, about the mid-game, about the number of dates and ideal venues, about closing, about sex. There is some written about retention, about being 85% “alpha” (not my favorite word) and 15% “beta” (also not my favorite word) in a relationship. There is not much written about having a chick more into you than you are into her and how to cut her loose. I think this girl is more into me because I stopped initiating contact with her a while ago, but when she initiates with me I will often respond. In that sense, I may have assumed the typical girl role, but in this very specific instance it’s a role I’m happy to be in. Was happy to be in, I should say.

I basically know her too well and am too close to being or becoming one of her girlfriends. I liked her a lot better at the beginning, when she was mysterious and sexy, and much less now, when she is a mess. (I wonder: could she say something similar about me?)

One funny fact about her: at some point this couple I know, and she knows tangentially through me, who are in some kind of poly relationship had a kid. They live in a house with other open relationship people and their kid. No word on a DNA test and I don’t know them that well. The guy is pretty cool, the chick is annoying and overweight… a deadly combination. Don’t know why the guy is with her, actually, as he can do much better.

So at some point myself and the cut-her-loose girl and I were talking about it and I said, “I would never, ever raise a kid that isn’t mine.” (Not from birth, at least… I could imagine maybe some scenarios, though they’re pretty unlikely and far from where I am now). She asked, “Why not?” and I told her. She eventually said she could imagine having kids and living in a triad or a poly house (she was in a triad at the time, although she’s in the 5% of people who identify as poly but are actually attractive). Again, mentally, I was like, “You are so fucking far away from being able to have a kid. She finds it hard to find and maintain a boyfriend or primary partner. It’s obvious to me, now, why. From afar she seems mysterious, quiet, well-put-together, and wildly sexual. From up close, she seems distracted, confused, uncertain, and aimless. Most guys with anything going for them are going to like the sex, next the rest.

She is nice in some ways but on a bunch of drugs and her financial life is a disaster. She’s also alienated from her family for reasons that seem partially justified and partially not. When a person cannot get along with their family, that is a very bad sign. It can be justified (I have met normal people with incredibly fucked families), but, combined with other signals, it’s not good.

My weekend goal was to not go out, but I went out last night to see this girl. I was only there for about an hour, and she seemed surprised by how quickly I wanted to leave (why hang out?), but the psychic energy and night seemed wasted. At yoga this morning I thought about writing this post instead of focusing on the moment. Minor things, but things. Today is also shaping up to be more social than I thought it would. Not a problem, but it is true.

Ms. Slav story update

Ms. Slav left for home on Monday, and we spent two weeks seeing each other every other day. She’s bisexual (or, as she says, she prefers “pansexual”) and was also having some sex with the girl she stayed with. The other girl is essentially straight but also inexperienced. She’s not into sex enough for Ms. Slav’s taste, and I would guess from seeing pictures of her that she’s not very competitive.

Ms. Slav is into being my nude model and making sex tapes with me, so that’s a major plus. I think she’ll be into posting them online when we get there. Like most chicks, when she sees nudes of herself taken by someone with a real camera and some small knowledge of photography, she’s really impressed. To the point that she’s now talking about buying a camera (a good move in my view: if you develop your aesthetic eye just a little, iPhone pics will not satisfy).

Despite that, I still find myself not as excited about her as I should be. Fucking her was really fun, don’t get me wrong, and I’m happy to have done it and will do it again, but I can’t get totally into her.

This is embarrassing to admit, but on two separate occasions when I was fucking her, an unwanted thought came to the top of mind: “96% of guys would kill to be in this situation; why aren’t you totally into it?”

Maybe it is just the condom thing. I don’t know. Or it is true that sometimes we just don’t get into a person who is objectively very attractive.

On Saturday I did bring her to a pretty large party. I may function for her the way Libido Girl did for me. She loved the party, despite some hiccups due to some guest-list challenges caused by the organizers, and after we had some (very intense, very good) sex, she wanted to find a girl to hookup with. She wasn’t clear about how to do so in that environment, but I sure was, and practically the first couple I saw had a woman who was ALSO looking for another woman. She was probably in her early 30s but still very hot. They had never been to a full-on event before and had only gone to non-sex events, so they were excited. The other guy and I watched and participated a little bit. They had that mind-blown look that people get at their first orgies. Eventually, Ms. Slav and I had sex again.

The other woman got Ms. Slav’s number. I warned Ms. Slav that, in the clear light of the next day, many people are less interested, but Ms. Slav said, “Girls always text me.” And the next day the other woman did text her, very promptly. They couldn’t meet before Ms. Slav left, but I’m now confident they will again.

Ms. Slav reminds me of something Nash said: very young chicks can get trained quickly by older guys into sexual experience and knowledge (I can’t find the specific posts where he talks about this). Ms. Slav started having sex at a very early age, and, although I haven’t heard about her oldest partner yet, I wouldn’t be surprised to find him 30+. Guys mostly have to develop on our own, while many girls get accelerated by older guys.

At the party, I was helped by my reputation and by the fact that I knew many people there. I led, Ms. Slav followed. A very good dynamic.

Ms. Slav also talked to her roommate/host about going to the party, but the roommate expressed a lot of interest, then didn’t go (a much more typical experience with women: interest, but failed execution). Behavior like this, and experience with it, is why a lot of venture capitalists are reluctant to invest in female entrepreneurs. The roommate had a good path to adventure and another, non-judgmental girl to go with, but just didn’t bother. The whole path was open! Then the roommate expressed intense regret the next day, because she went to some boring average party and left after an hour.

Ms. Slav is also unusual because she’s extremely punctual and extremely straightforward. When she said, “I want to hook up with a girl,” I found an acceptable girl and she did. As many players know, a girl’s statement that “I’m interested in other girls” is often, if not bullshit, then at least not something she wants to execute. Finding chicks who say, “I want this thing” and then do this thing is too uncommon. I really like it when it does happen, but I don’t expect it to. I wonder how many chicks would have better sexual experiences if they showed up on time and learned how to cook (Ms. Slav also likes to cook and says she’ll cook for me when she gets her apartment set up).

Like Libido Girl, I think Ms. Slav would make an excellent wing-woman for threesomes.

I meant to update the story sooner, but work has been nuts and when I’ve not been working I’ve been dealing with personal stuff, or stuffing Ms. Slav. Now I wish I’d taken closer notes on what she said, because there are other amusing game-related things, but I have been tired and today is the first day I’ve had mental space to talk about Ms. Slav. The media-outrage articles don’t require as much deep thought, because typically they either exemplify an important Red Pill idea or need simple correction that Red Pill and evolutionary biology guys will already know. I would guess that, over time, as I transition away from the game, that will become the bulk of this blog.

(I still don’t know what should replace the game, but I do still feel it should be something.)

By the way, the 20-year-old came to town for a day to look for apartments, but I didn’t see her Snapchat saying as much until after she’d left. That’s just as well: she’s flakey enough that I may stop responding altogether and maybe re-initiate later on. I worry that I’ve been feeding her way too much attention relative to her behavior.

Correction: I know I’ve been feeding her way too much attention. She does reply within minutes of everything I send her, but if the logistics aren’t there I need to ease out till they are. I’m not convinced I’m going to have sex with her again. Her behavior is strange. Must be other dudes in the picture.

I did talk to Ms. Slav about getting an IUD. I want to go all the way, raw, and see if that ups my feelings about her.

 

“A lot of women don’t enjoy hookup culture—so why do we force ourselves to participate?”

A lot of women don’t enjoy hookup culture—so why do we force ourselves to participate?” More accurately, a lot of women are very happy to compete for the highest-status men. Women are not stupid and know that the highest-status men have lots of options. If a woman doesn’t grab his attention quickly, he’ll give it to another woman.

It is true that women don’t like it when a high-status man has sex with them, then ditches them. That may sour their feelings about “hook ups,” even as they’re still motivated to engage in them (with a sufficiently high-status man). For some women, chasing a high-status man is a gamble to get him to invest, and he often doesn’t. Women (correctly) worry that if they fail to hook up with a high-status man, some other woman will get him.

Plus, lots of women like hookups with a sexually competent man. Since a lot of men are sexually incompetent, the attraction to hooking up goes down.

There are also some women who like hooking up a lot, and they drive the narrative (Ms. Slav is like that, and I’m sure she’s broken up relationships before). The book Cheap Sex discusses this dynamic. The author also has not read Date-onomics. The book explains how small changes in the male-female ratio can lead to large changes in behavior. If there are more males in a given situation, there is more monogamy and commitment. If there are more females, there is greater promiscuity. Middlebury is 52% female, which is pretty good for women by the standards of modern colleges.

As usual, the writer doesn’t understand how female psychology evolved and doesn’t fully understand female preference for the highest-status men. Once a person understands that women are in intense competition with other women for high-status men, and that high-status men typically have multiple female offers to choose from, the supposed “dislike” for hookup culture while participating in it anyway becomes clear. Women may say they dislike hookup culture when they actually dislike not having emotional and relationship access to the high-status man they want both from.

“I know it was wrong but my desire for him and for adventure was so intense”

Some Like it Rough” is a basic female cheating story; the only surprising part is that the author claims she was monogamous for 9.5 years. The story ticks so many of the classic boxes:

Ilyas was my surf teacher for a week in Morocco. At that time, I was in a monogamous relationship for 9,5 years and I never cheated nor wanted to cheat on my partner.

She’s traveling alone and thus out of her typical environment. The likelihood of her being caught is low. This is why a lot of players love it when they open solo tourist girls.

I know it was wrong but my desire for him and for adventure was so intense.

Feelings matter more than commitments, which is why men should not marry. Marriage will not stop her. The feelings in the moment override everything.

Then he spanked me. And that changed my life. I had never been spanked during sex and I was amused and surprised. He kept doing it, and squeezing my butt too.

If a guy does not learn how to dominate a girl and do rough sex well, he is not going to keep her. Most women want to be dominated and want to submit. If a guy doesn’t make her submit, she will find another guy who will.

I was so thrilled about that incredible night, it was like having “real” sex for the first time.

More of the same.

I talked to all my friends about it and then to my boyfriend when we broke up. Everyone was very supportive and I never felt judged.

Women’s friends will encourage them to cheat. So why promise monogamy that won’t be reciprocated? Instead of pretending to do monogamy (that most people can’t or won’t do), I think going all the way in the opposite direction can be better for a guy with game.

“When a DNA Test Shatters Your Identity”

When a DNA Test Shatters Your Identity” is total Red Pill, in a mainstream package. Remember when I wrote, “DNA confirms: women like to screw around, lie about it?” Same idea, different package.

Be the guy she cheats with, not the guy she cheats on.

There is one suspicious pregnancy that I’ve knowingly been a part of. It was at a business conference, years ago now, with a woman who already had one kid and was, I think, bored with her husband. She wasn’t very attractive, a low 6 probably (sorry, for those of you who who might be imagining the porn fantasy), and I think I only managed to get with her because there were two or three low 7s who could be played off her. I don’t think any of the 7s got fucked, unless they were extra conniving about it. But mine did, albeit with some sneaking around. When we eventually got to it, she badly wanted me to use a condom and I, um, didn’t want to. I eventually won and we spent the better part of two days screwing. And she spent time telling me how much she loved her husband but that she’s bored with him and that they barely have sex anymore.

We didn’t talk too much after that, as I respect the Secret Society and didn’t want the rest of her life to know about her transgression. I eventually learned, through Facebook, that she had a second kid. I looked at the timing and couldn’t help noticing the timing was pretty much perfect.

Now. She might already have been pregnant. She might have screwed six different guys in the week before the conference. Her husband might’ve done the deed the night she got home. But it’s also possible that the kid is going to do a 23andme one day and learn something shocking.

When you realize what a lot of women are capable of, your whole life and outlook changes. The man-o-sphere and Red Pill are full of guys worrying about what happens if or when their chick cheats. It’s impossible to protect yourself fully, but a guy can demand the DNA test for any kids fingered as his, and he can also realize that for every chick who cheats, there’s a guy she’s cheating with.

Our whole society is also now built around admiring and supporting women who cheat. It’s possible for a guy to stand against that cultural edifice, but it’s really hard and kind of pointless. The rewards are in being the guy she cheats with.

Downside is that I think most cheaters are older, less attractive, and have already been in a relationship for a pretty long time. So long that they’re bored and likely under appreciated. So if the right new hotness comes along, it might be time for her.

I also think chicks like the contrast. If she’s chosen a good worker guy who makes good money but is a little boring, she might be ready for exciting musician guy with the tats and shit. But if she’s chosen a free-spirited artist and is sick of not making rent or paying for the guy while he works on his music, Mr. Shit-Together $$$$ may appeal to her. I’ve seen it go both ways, more or less.