Tough conversations this weekend. I’m having some challenges making some of the changes I want to make, and I am suffering some right now because I have been a player for a long time and have a player reputation and a lot of player instincts. The player instincts don’t serve me well in trying to develop a longer-term relationship with a woman who has a more secure attachment style and who knows what she wants.
A word on reputation and what chicks are looking for. Players tend to filter out family-oriented chicks. A few guys have been talking about this on Twitter, although none blog, so I can’t link a canonical post on the subject. But chicks who want monogamy and families exist: they’re the ones who are not interested in guys who give off player vibes. Some are very pretty. They usually have a small number of lifetime sex partners, don’t have sex immediately, and find guys who are attractive, have their shit together, and are career-oriented. Priorities and what you bring to life (Katie’s story) is about this type of chick. Sexually adventurous chicks make for interesting and fun stories… extremely family-oriented chicks don’t, usually. I am thinking of two chicks I know who were (and are) very pretty and followed the family-life pattern. Often these chicks will compromise somewhat on “looks and extroversion” to get “family-oriented and monogamous.” They often find long-term guys in their 20s and often work jobs that give them access to guys with good earnings and family orientation.
Many family-oriented, mostly monogamous chicks who will have one or two flings in their lives… if you catch them at the right time with the right game you may get with one… but these chicks keep their wilder impulses under control and filter guys for being better dads and providers. This is the kind of woman who, if you cold approach her, will say “no” and move on. She’s probably never been on Tinder or, if she has, she quit it in disgust. She’s not doing the things Red Pill guys complain about, but she’s also looking for a guy commensurate to her in value, so low value guys are going to be just about sexually invisible to her. Many online Red Pill guys are low value and thrashing about women because it’s almost impossible to overcome being low value, kind of like fat chicks complaining about men. For fat chicks, their number one problem in accessing higher-value men is being fat, and pretty much nothing they do without changing their diets and movement habits will improve their situation.
Reputation matters and chicks are going to judge you on, like you judge them on it (if you know them). The skills a player has are also not identical to the skills needed in high-quality, long-term relationships, where higher levels of investment and intimacy are useful. Guys in long-term relationships shouldn’t go full supplicant beta, and they should still have good frame, etc., but negotiation skills are more important, and, when the chick is invested, she is often not playing games. A lot of seduction advice focuses on the needs and psychologies of younger party shit-testing chicks who are out for a good time. Nothing wrong with those chicks (it would be crazy of me to knock them given my life history), but the psychology of a secure chick looking for a family is often different and if you have a “game” and “frame control” mindset, you will frustrate her… maybe to the point of her leaving so she can find a secure attachment guy herself. Invested, psychologically secure chicks behave and negotiate differently than non-invested, insecure chicks. You can get these chicks through day or even night game, but the seduction process is probably going to be longer and she’s going to be judging you more on fundamentals.
I’m sure lots of guys are familiar with the other side of the player reputation… if you’re known in high school/college as the beta guy who can’t get chicks, that becomes self-perpetuating. Pretty, socially savvy girls won’t have anything romantic to do with you, and they will often shame the other girls who might. So you have to go pretty far down to get a girl at all. It’s possible to break out of this frame, but super difficult and usually takes a lot of self-improvement.
Relationships have “stacks” from initial sighting, opening/approach, early flirting, dates, kissing, foreplay, sex, committed relationships, cohabitation/marriage, children, etc. Obviously these stages can be very compressed, as when you meet a chick at a party and f**k her an hour later… in high school I knew a chick who apparently got pregnant from the first time she had sex, for 15 seconds, the guy finished inside her, and she had the kid and gave the kid up for adoption. That’s extreme compression. Normally it’s drawn out. Chicks usually talk the most about evaluating guy quality and getting him into a committed relationship, that stage forward. Guys often talk the most about the opening parts, since guys make the opening offers and chicks evaluate offers. My problems right now feel more like they are at the middle of the stack, not the end. For many players, the question is all about getting to sex… what happens later is less concerning. Many guys end up married and having kids with the one or two okay women who will let them get that far… which is sad… but it is common… cause they never learn game or develop their value.
I don’t want to get more specific in this post, but the tough conversations this weekend generated it. I’m feeling pretty low because of them. Obviously it’s true that there’s always another woman around the corner…. but for me, the supply of available, high-quality women who I’ve known for a long time is small. Given some of my own unusual views, it’s not always easy for me to find women who fit some of my own criteria.
5 thoughts on “Tough conversations. Downside of being known as a player”
Very insightful. I predict that your thoughts here are ahead of their time, but eventually will be taken up by more writers in the ever-changing “community”.
A lot of the various splinters of the communities are peopled by NPC echo artists. There are mini-cultures where thought police shout down non-canonical views.
It’s very rare that a person partakes in such communities but doesn’t become a “member”. You have an original voice, and are moving through life. Not working hard to figure out the one answer that you can teach and make money from. But living your own real life.
Anyway, lots of your thoughts in your post resonate with me, and at this time I have nothing more insightful to add to how you said them.
>>but eventually will be taken up by more writers in the ever-changing “community”.
I’m not so sure. I think a lot of guys who start at the bottom, defensive, low-value position never really get out of it. If they do, they probably quit the community (mostly). I may be unusual because I started writing around the time I began having doubts about being a permanent player. I’m never going to do one of those red pill renunciations, and I think it’s useful for most guys to experience the player life and a wide range of chicks,
But…… I also think that many guys, when they get decent value & game, get access to the higher tiers of chicks, and when they find a really good one, they quit for a while. I have been elucidating how to retain high-value chicks while also having sexual novelty. That no one else in the community of rp and seduction writers has gotten to this stage…… it is revealing, I think.
I have been encouraging guys to take up where I am hopefully leaving off. But when guys get high enough value…. many depart the writing community.
When I was 100% in the game instead of 90% in the game I wasn’t writing. I also knew that I would probably waste too much time storytelling and that was completely true, unfortunately.
>>You have an original voice, and are moving through life. Not working hard to figure out the one answer that you can teach and make money from. But living your own real life.
IMO there is no one answer…. there are different answers for different people depending on their desires, needs, backgrounds, personalities, etc. There are some important principles that almost every guy should know: the importance of masculinity/femininity/polarity. How to be physically fit. How to be mentally fit. How to interest chicks. What the world looks like to chicks. How to relate to other people. If a guy works on these skills….. he is probably going to do well. The sum of these skills is “value.” Most guys don’t have well-rounded value and that is why they fail. Or they are not in a good environment.
I have had good enough value to have not developed good daygame and other skills. Plus ecosystem.
>>Anyway, lots of your thoughts in your post resonate with me, and at this time I have nothing more insightful to add to how you said them.
Really depends on where you are…. when I’m 50 will I still want to relentlessly chase skirt? 60? What will the ideal life look like then? I don’t think it will look the same as it does now…. so I am looking into doing something else. Something that I have not developed good skills and instincts for. Long-term relationships, families…. there are skills associated with these things. Skills that I have not been focusing on. There is some overlap with player skills and the importance of sex skills never go away (the couple who fucks together, stays together….. whether the man or woman lets that piece go, when it goes, the relationship is probably dead).
Being a player is wonderful. I am not sure that most guys are best off spending their entire adult lives as players. Family stuff is important, it has its place, as does being a player. I’m not a tradcon guy….. but there is something positive about building civilization. Something that is probably deep within us. I think most of us are also primed to love kids and want to care for them.
“Most” guys…. I don’t and can’t speak for all guys…. each guy has to find his own way. I can talk about what I have observed and experienced. A guy who is 20… he should come back to this post in 15 years, after he has developed his player skills.
I have a post here…. will get it up at some point.
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“For many players, the question is all about getting to sex… what happens later is less concerning.”
I’ve found is that “what happens later” is the easy part, especially if I want to be with someone for a while. Perhaps for the naturals, getting to the notch is the easiest part, but this isn’t the case for guys on the Player’s Journey (as Krauser puts it).
After the notch, it’s pretty easy to keep a relationship going… IF you want to be with that particular girl for a while AND you’re both compatible. If there’s any difficulty, it’s likely due to incompatibilities.
So I think players have a bit of conflicting strategies and goals:
1.) Finding a partner that’s compatible for the long run.
2.) Finding a short-term sexual partners.
Both strategies have the same price of admission for getting that notch. If you’re deciding you’re incompatible with a girl AFTER you bang, then you’ll be spending a lot of time/effort on having sex with girls that have no long-term potential.
If you place #1 at your highest priority, you could reject girls that are only good for #2 and save yourself time. This has its own opportunity cost though, so it all depends on what’s really valuable to you.
I agree that chicks who are like this are out there–but extremely, extremely rare. In point of fact, my ex-wife was somewhat like this. I don’t think she had a high n-count and she got married again pretty shortly after our divorce, but I was too blue pill to keep her through no fault of my own, as I was simply following the script of “happy wife–happy life” that our culture seems to think is right, but is actually disastrous.
Anyway, if you’re looking for chicks like this: go to church. Otherwise, I’m pretty skeptical of most women these days and find that most are pretty slutty and willing to jump into bed if you have good game. Maybe that’s selection bias on my part–well, actually I’m sure some portion of it is.
However, the zeitgeist for women today is this: in your 20’s, you should work on your career (read: fuck HAWT guys or have a beta provider), travel (read: fuck HAWT foreign guys), have a public Instagram account (be a THOT), and fuck HAWT guys. That’s for the girls who don’t fuck a shady alpha type in high school or shortly thereafter, get pregnant, and then end up a single mom either through poor decision making and/or the guy being an absolute slimeball.
In the community, we know the former often ends up badly for the girl (it’s obvious the latter does)–not sure when this will catch up with the rest of society, but my sense is that it will at some stage. (https://redpilldad.blog/2019/08/15/predictions-on-the-state-of-the-sexual-marketplace/)
But the point I’m trying to make is the girls you’re talking about in this post are SUPER, SUPER rare. If she’s not religious (maybe even if she is), and she’s a 7 or higher, hasn’t she been on Tinder/Instagram and had the opportunity to THOT it up for a few years?
In my own journey I’m not too worried about it–there’s never been a better time to be a player–but when it comes to stabilizing things and settling down, I understand why these conversations have been difficult. The player is probably judged by these girls in the same way we’d look at a girl who’s got an n-count of 50+–damaged goods. I do think girls are more forgiving of this because she still has to acknowledge that only an alpha male can do this.
Anyway, I wish you luck. Girls like this are super rare, and if a guy wants to settle down at some point and have a family (which at some point, we probably all do), those are the ones you want.
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