This is a controversial one, and it’s only relevant to guys with intermediate or advanced game.
I think it’s wise to release older chicks (at least age 25, likely older) who want to have a family, when you (a man) don’t want one, or don’t want one yet, or don’t want one with her.
This point emerges emerges from Nash’s post, Back to daygame, a breakup, and a close call. He breaks up with an amazing girl, Miss Thick, because “her kids/family goals were real and that I respected them.” I wanted to know how old she is…
She is 29… and from China. She’s a “Chinese” girl at heart… but an artsy, and unusual one.
Then I like the idea of letting her go and not having her dangle a lot of prime reproductive years. Let her go and tell her that, if her next serious relationship doesn’t work out, she can come back for a month or two of fun and recovery. She may come back or she may not.
That’s in line with what I wrote about frame and non-monogamy
over time [most] women have a biological need to find guys to have kids with and subsidize them and their kids. That’s part of the reason long-term, undefined, FWBs-type relationships are so uncommon. Few chicks will allow them, at least past the age of 25. Even if they do, they will drop the FWB when they find a hot-enough provider guy.
(If you’re dating a chick under the age of 25 in a contemporary Western country, you can ignore the last two paragraphs, because chicks that age are all about the feelz and the hot sex.)
Players know that it’s uncommon to have an undefined FWB-type relationship with a girl for more than a few months. Even six months without the “where are we going?” talk is uncommon, because most chicks who don’t have a family want one. They may f**k up en route to getting a family, they may hit menopause, they may say they want one thing while in a cold state and do another thing while horny, but they want a family most of the time.
[Nash says “Lover” is a better word than “FWB,” and I also misstated minor parts of Nash’s story.]
Guys who are dating women over age 26 – 29 should cut those women free and tell them, “Girl, go get your provider guy.” This advice goes against some of the “Red Pill” comments amid the hardass maxims of anger phase warriors.
Guys can string along a girl through a lot of her prime fertility years… yes, the girl should be responsible and break it off, but girls are weak, just like guys, and prone to wishful thinking… just like guys. Guys who put girls in that position will also often find… SURPRISE!… the birth control failed and you’re going to be a DADDY! You jack her around, she’ll jack you around.
It’s unnecessary to waste years of a woman’s prime child-bearing life, and a guy with strong game will find another girl, maybe a better one. So the chick who wants kids the guy isn’t going to willingly provide should be released. Her family is the most important part of her life and you should help her lead her best life.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t sleep with chicks age 25 – 40. That would be insane. Those chicks want one-night stands and orgasms and hot lovers, just like younger chicks. I’m only saying you shouldn’t string them along for long periods of prime fertility time. You should be direct about not being their baby’s father. It’s tempting to tell her, “Maybe I’ll want kids… someday…” while her eggs wither.
Be the bigger person and enable people to live the right way. For most women, that means letting her have her family. Normal girls in the right age bracket who want kids will leave the guy when she figures out he’s a player, but some need the push. Be honest, then let her go when she’s ready.
If a guy gets into a position of strength, he should get into the habit of helping people build the right lives (this is NOT being a doormat “nice guy”). Guys in a position of strength and choice shouldn’t string along chicks in their prime fertility years. Guys in a position of strength should try to help others become who they are meant to become.
I don’t preach about living better. Not much. I do show it. That means zero sugar. That means inviting chicks (and guys!) to the gym. Obviously I’m not doing deadlifting on the first date. But if I’m going to the gym I invite her to go with me, whoever the “her” is. I’ve probably taught ten or fifteen girls how to swim for exercise or how to lift. That’s ten or fifteen more than most guys. If a girl is going to become part of my life, she’s going to do what I do and learn how to do it. Most guys have lives of TV, video games, and Internet. Not much of interest to a girl in there.
Those girls also know I’m serious about the body. Talking about the joys of lifting in an online dating profile won’t totally repel fatties but it will help. And when I meet a girl for a drink for a first date, if she’s too fat, sometimes I’ll just leave… I’ve invite her to the gym. Not necessarily that night but in two days or whenever. Their reactions are funny. Especially the ones who say, “Are you saying I’m fat?” Easy response: “I’m saying I’m going to the gym and you should come.”
In a position of strength, a guy can say, “I want you to go find a man who will give you a family. In the meantime, if you want to keep having fun with me, do it. If you find a guy and things don’t work out and you want a break, text me.”
Sometimes she will. Chicks can be like comets, swinging into a guy’s solar system for a couple weeks at a time.
I also have weird ethics. I think women in the 29 – 40 age range who genuinely want children should be released by guys who catch them and who have investment from those women. This essay only applies to a guy with a woman who is invested. If she’s not invested it doesn’t count.
If a guy’s game is strong and he’s in the secret society, he won’t have trouble moving on to the next woman. But in my ethical inversion, I like sleeping with chicks who have boyfriends or husbands (now you can see why I don’t talk about the deepest shit with people I know). Not even swingers or poly people will admit that kind of thing. I think humans are ill-equipped for long-term monogamy and that if she’s available for seduction, I want me in her instead of some other guy swooping in. Among humans, women are the guardians of sex, men are the guardians of commitment. Feminism tries to obscure that basic fact, but it is true.
Next post up should continue the non-monogamy theme. It’s the one I keep mentioning, about how sex clubs layer on top of conventional game. In my view, for the right man they are a powerful tool, but I don’t think I’ve seen any active game guys writing about them.
Addition: “I’m Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I’ve Wasted My Whole Life” is a case study of a woman who fails to realize that family matters more than partying. I’ve dated and f**ked women like her. She is the sort of woman who a guy not interested family should catch & release. She is also in New York, where the male-female ratio favors men because there are more women than men. The dumb writers of these articles and letters never talk about this. Failure to talk ratio and dating market is like watching people trying to calculate curves & trajectories without calculus. Doesn’t work well.
The Red Quest 
Hey man, another great post. I like your POV in this space, very much.
>> He breaks up with an amazing girl, Miss Thick, because “her kids/family goals were real and that I respected them.”
To keep it real… she broke up w/ me. I wasn’t dumping a girl for wanting a family… and I wasn’t being noble and letting her go. She came to this on her own. The whole thing was a surprise to me.
The only thing I did here that was “fair” was to not BS her about what I want. I didn’t toss in some last-minute BS about being the husband/father type when that isn’t what I can offer. I didn’t string her along.
>> Players know that it’s uncommon to have an undefined FWB-type relationship with a girl for more than 18 months.
I want to pause here to create some space around the FWB business… I think that term tears the guts out of what many of us have going on. I never had a talk with her. I never made her a single promise. I wasn’t the slightest bit monogamy… but she and I were not “FWB.” I’m not mad at you, man… but it almost makes me angry to hear it described that way.
She was my lover. That may sounds cheesy, but keeping a woman as a “lover” is leagues beyond some sex-only based thing. She wasn’t a workout partner. That girl was blowing my mind.
FWB, at least in my world, is a broken frame. Men and women are rarely “friends” (I do have some exceptions in my life, for sure… most of them ex-lovers, they how they found special status). We’re all too busy to hang out with girls we’re not fucking… most of the time that is true. Orbiters do that, but again, that is not friends either.
When I said she and I were “multi-dimensional,” I mean that we helped each other see “God.” That is not a religious comments. But we had the kind of relationship that was sexual-spiritual. I was not that girl’s friend. We made relationship art together… I’m paraphrasing Deida here, and he knows what is up.
I’m just letting off steam here (no attack on you, man)… explaining myself, and also creating some room for men to see this as possibly more than FWB.
/rant
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Cool, I added a link.
I also don’t mind and even like disagreement or correction, as long as it’s intelligent. The grotty “you’re stupid,” “No, YOU’RE STUPID” is what makes me roll my eyes. This is the Internet and there is a “block” button for a reason.
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>> I think women in the 26 – 40 age range who genuinely want children should be released by guys who catch them
Here is where I see the cruel reality of life… I think we have more options.
If I limit my engagements with the 26-40 year old girls to only quick flings… we kill a lot of the spicy of life. For me, and for those girls. For what? So she can “ride the escalator” into a sexless, bitter marriage? So she can leap into feeling “fat” and “non-sexy.”
I think a thin slice of women do the wife, mother and then “graceful woman” thing remarkable well. The charming grandma role. I think that is an ideal that some women find. But a lot of them are solely “hosts” for the species (men too, of course… “paychecks” that keep the species alive). And we don’t need to push them into that.
I totally respect folks that want to give that a try… but I don’t discount the possibility of sex and man/woman connection as some of the greatest stuff in our otherwise painful and short lives. The apex of our existence. If wife/mother can be a quiet happiness… “lover” can be the blood-pumping in her veins.
And >40… for most women, they’re kicked out of the sexual marketplace. The are sexually isolated. Mostly, that is true. Maybe I’ll be fucking 40 year olds when I’m 70… but in my 60s, I bet I’ll still have GF <40.
So for women 26-40, there is a lot of "magic" to be had, and it is actually their last chance. Moments in life way beyond "paying bills" and "changing diapers," that is their time to grab it. The "fertility" is their currency… and they can spend it with kids, or with lovers, but usually not both.
The path I'm talking about is NOT for everyone. I don't want to block a woman's chance to have a kid… I may regret not doing that myself some day…
But I want to preserve the idea that a lover might be better, more fulfilling, than that domestic option.
I think it's grass-is-greener thing… single folks, want families. Married/childed… wish to god they were single.
This ^ is the 1/2 empty view.
The 1/2 full view is to really soak up the experiences of this age… for them, 26-40… for me, 35-60. Banking memories so that when I am truly old I know I've lived.
I will never make false promises to a girl. I won't suggest that I am about to "come around" to some domestic fantasy. But I reserve the option to give them world-class experiences in those years… more than a night. More than a hit-run version of that scenario. Depth takes time.
I will let them go when they are ready. Of course. But I won't "nudge" them out.
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So she can “ride the escalator” into a sexless, bitter marriage? So she can leap into feeling “fat” and “non-sexy.”
I think a thin slice of women do the wife, mother and then “graceful woman” thing remarkable well.
For a lot of women, I think they derive more meaning from their children and their families than their sex lives. And while getting fat and frumpy is the American default, women who don’t want to do that quit sugar and keep up their health and well-being. From the number of women who have kids and get fat, I infer that most women are not as interested in their sex lives as the kinds of women who are willing to be picked up by players.
Smart women also understand how hard the sexual marketplace becomes as they age. Many don’t have that foresight. Some do. On average, the older the woman, the more likely she is to derive meaning and pleasure from her family rather than her sex live. We all know exceptions. Some women also do manage a rockin’ sex life and a family, but they typically have to be self-aware and good negotiators and communicators (as most women are not).
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>> But in my ethical inversion, I like sleeping with chicks who have boyfriends or husbands
This is what I wish for, a lot of the time. I’m with you 100%. I can have what I want, and be very useful in this role.
Let her step into the Disney dream. Let her try it. Let her succeed…. I hope she does. Let her have whatever upside is there.
And she can be my lover on the side. I like the idea that a side-lover can be a pressure-relief valve for her primary relationship… that side action might actually extend the length and health of her primary thing.
To be clear, I’m not at all into polyamory… not for me. I want the “French marriage.” That’s the most successful model I’ve ever seen. “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” I won’t date girls that even talk about polyamory… something about it is repulsive to me…. so much of it where I live. And for now, I don’t want to be in the married part… I just want to be side action.
I aim for this, but have barely found it. I think it’s a kind of sweet spot.
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The French idea is interesting but also hard to do. It may be necessary to do that unspoken, which is okay, but it seems to me ripe for an explosion. Maybe that is inaccurate.
Or maybe girls play along.
I try to re-mold a woman’s self-image, at least when she is around me, into a sensual hedonist who will partner-swap. So that’s a different set of goals. I think this has to be done both verbally and non-verbally. Primarily non-verbally at first, but I think I need the verbal part to make the identity “take.”
Many women have this identity latently within them, but almost none discover it of their own accord.
Have you read Gay Talese, Thy Neighbor’s Wife? I should do a post on it. This story that I’m living, doing, and telling goes back long before “game” as such became a thing.
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>> In my view it’s often better to be the bigger person and enable people to live the right way.
This 100%.
I have a gym in my backyard. I try to teach most girls I’m seeing about fitness and life.
I told a girl I’m seeing the other day that I won’t fuck her again unless she opens a Vanguard IRA.
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I am one of those that got strung along, from 25 to 32. He was married. I never wanted to take him away from his family. I never tried. In fact I stabilized his marriage for 7 years. He was joking all the time about how me looking at him sometimes makes him worry about me. He was a desperate asshole, playing Machiavellian, dread all the time, never encouraging, always putting me down. Whatever.
After him it took me more than 6 years to recover from the pain that being with him. I always talked to him that I wanted kids and family myself. I believe he knew what he did. If he would have had the least bit of respect he would have set me free, not allowing for the girl that I was to waste her youth on him. I know that in some sense I had the choice myself and in another I didn’t. He was intentionally looking for someone weak and romantic.
Now I am close to end my life. I will make it few more years and then leave. I am turning older and older and probably will never have the family I was always dreaming of since I was a child. So there is no reason for me to stay. To be a better parent than my parents were was the reason why I dedicated so much time and energy to self-improvement.
I thought I have time. We don’t have time. Don’t waste it. Make something of it, while you still can. One day it will be too late. Don’t take those years of somebody if you do not give anything in return. Just don’t.
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I am one of those that got strung along, from 25 to 32. He was married. I never wanted to take him away from his family. I never tried. In fact I stabilized his marriage for 7 years. He was joking all the time about how me looking at him sometimes makes him worry about me. He was a desperate asshole, playing Machiavellian, dread all the time, never encouraging, always putting me down. Whatever.
After him it took me more than 6 years to recover from the pain that being with him. I always talked to him that I wanted kids and family myself. I believe he knew what he did. If he would have had the least bit of respect he would have set me free, not allowing for the girl that I was to waste her youth on him. I know that in some sense I had the choice myself and in another I didn’t. He was intentionally looking for someone weak and romantic.
Now I am close to end my life. I will make it few more years and then leave. I am turning older and older and probably will never have the family I was always dreaming of since I was a child. So there is no reason for me to stay. To be a better parent than my parents were was the reason why I dedicated so much time and energy to self-improvement.
I thought I have time. We don’t have time. Don’t waste it. Make something of it, while you still can. One day it will be too late. Don’t take those years of somebody if you do not give anything in return. Just don’t.
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“He was married”
You were not strung along
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I didn’t know that he was married in the beginning, then I fell for him, he had me invest a lot just in order to be able to see him again, then he made it seem as if his wife were ok with him having affairs, he made it seem as if he was forced to marry her, then I thought that he deserved happiness as well and that I could just accept it for some time, then it turned out that it would be the worst thing that could happen if she finds out.
It was clear that in these 7 years I was terribly unhappy about the reciprocated love. He was lying all the time. He knew that I was unable to leave him. He knew that he had “god-status” and that I was addicted. He made jokes about it. He manipulated me into staying by refusing to give me the security I would have needed in order to be able to think about myself. I was trying for 7 years to please him and only after I could see more and more through his lies I lost respect and felt the disgust that I needed in order to break free myself.
So yes, that was stringing along and in his case it was even intentional. He knew what he did. If someone loves that much that her only wish is to see the other happy one can play all these games and make the person stay and do things she would never do when clear-minded.
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If you are married and you take 7 years of a woman whom you do not even love while you know that this woman loves you and you play all those games and tricks on her in order to bind her, knowing that she is a romantic stupid something that made the mistake of falling for you, then it is stringing along. He knew that I was unable to leave. He should have ended it. He couldn’t. He was needy and desperate. He is a parasite and nothing more.
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