Setting the non-monogamous frame and intention with women: XBTUSD

XBTUSD has another essay about his adventures in non-monogamy.

“Congruence” is the most important attribute when entering the world of group sex or sex parties: as mentioned in previous posts, my brand with women is honesty and direct communication. Even when I’m telling them what they don’t want to hear, (i.e. “I don’t want to be in a monogamous relationship”), they’re willing to compromise because it’s so rare to be able to trust what a man tells them what he really wants. Most men believe that if they tell women the truth, they won’t get what they want (sex). I’ve found the opposite: when women can turn off the part of their brain that is designed to suss out whether a man can be trusted, and are absolutely sure that what he says is ALWAYS what will happen, another world opens up.

Congruence comes from demonstrating through my actions that my words have value. Women can tell that when I say something I mean it, and while I might change my mind (rarely), I have values and standards and am willing to walk away when those aren’t adhered to. My ability to walk away allows women to feel safe. It’s also a function of leading with vulnerability. Early and often I communicate things that most men wouldn’t, take risks that I/they know most women would be turned off by. By making sure we are on the same page, I risk losing them. Because I’m willing to say and do things that won’t work for many women, they see that I have:

  • abundance
  • standards
  • she can trust me

Before I go out with a woman, I typically ask what she’s looking for. I say I’m only interested in open relationships, and that I totally understand if that doesn’t work for her. This sets the frame. Many women say no. But many are intrigued, and some are already there. Ideas about open relationships have spread through the culture, and more women are already there than were a few years ago.

I’ve developed a way of speaking that uses some “tricks” to have unusual effects. For example, on a first date I always ask a woman “what’s your relationship to sex?” Hopefully it’s obvious that this can’t be blurted out in the first five minutes of being on a date with a woman. It takes tact and timing, but I always work it in. This question serves a number of purposes:

  1. It establishes that I’m comfortable talking about sex.
  2. It establishes that the only difference between friends hanging out and a date is sex, and that’s why we’re here.
  3. It shifts us into a new reality where we are two people that are comfortable talking about sex with one another. This is a taboo topic that most women are uncomfortable talking about. The fact that they are talking about sex with me must mean that we are people that talk about sex with one another, it’s circular. It’s the same idea that once a woman sleeps with you, her rationalizing engine will switch from coming up with reasons why she shouldn’t sleep with you, to justifying why she DID sleep with you.
  4. It allows us to see if we’re a good sexual match. I learned this from one of my best friends who only dates in the kink community. Before they “play,” they get together and plan out the scene, talk about their desires, turn-ons, turn-offs: what will I do, how will you respond etc. We can learn a lot from them.
  5. It puts her in a slightly uncomfortable position. She doesn’t know how to answer the question “correctly”. She wants my approval, but doesn’t know if I want her to give a slutty answer, or a “good girl” answer. So inevitably she will reverse it and ask me to answer first. “What do you mean?” She’ll say.
  6. It allows me a chance to talk about MY relationship to sex, set the frame, and lead her to the correct answer.
  7. You can answer however you’d like, but it’s important to be congruent. Don’t feed her some bullshit here. Be vulnerable, talk about what sex means to you, how it makes you FEEL. What is the connection it produces between you and a woman. This is how you show her you are DIFFERENT.
  8. Now we’ve broken the spell, and the entire vibe of the evening has changed.

Other questions I like to ask, either on the first date or at the appropriate time:

  • Have you ever been to a sex party?
  • Have you ever had a threesome?
  • Have you ever been with a woman?
  • Have you ever fantasized about being with a woman?
  • Have you ever wanted to be gangbanged?
  • What turns you on the most when you think about group sex?
  • Would you describe yourself as sexually open?
  • How do you like to cum?

I like the phrase, “would you be open to…?” This is typically after sex, when there’s a deep connection between the two of us. The phrasing is important. While women don’t want to think of themselves as “sluts”, they DO want to think of themselves as “open.” By using that phrase, the implied CORRECT answer to whatever is inserted at the end, is YES. Often women will not have done X thing, but when you ask them that question, immediately they start thinking about it in a different way. If you start by asking, “would you describe yourself as sexually open?”, almost all women will say yes, then you can lead them down the path by following up with, would you be open to trying X? They will typically ask if I’ve done X before, and the answer is almost always yes, which gives me an opportunity to describe how great it is. How it made me and the woman FEEL when we did X thing.

As RQ points out in his post “Sex skills for guys: psychology, preparation, and practice”, one of the most important things you can do with a woman is create space for her to be a different person, or think about her relationship to sex or her body differently.

If she is anxious I will sometimes slow down and tell her that there is no rush, we’re not going anywhere, that she has a nice body, and that she shouldn’t be ashamed of her desires, and if there is anything she wants me to do, to tell me. Just trying to remove shame/judgment from her mind can go a really long way with a lot of chicks. Sexually healthy and sex-positive chicks won’t need this as much but there are too few of those women out there. Many internalize social and societal shame around sexual expression and they carry this shame into the bedroom. The psychological skills can be as important as the physical ones.

“People cheat because they want to be seen as a different person” -lost source

Women pick up on subtle cues from men about what role they should play. With every word and look, we train them how to respond to us and receive our love and approval.

My point is, to have group sex with women, you can’t just ask them to have group sex and cross your fingers, you have to become the type of man women want to have group sex with. That’s the kind of man who tells her it’s okay, that it’s normal to want to do this, that you’ll still care for her (or even love her, if you’re at that stage) the next morning. She’s spent her life around judgmental people, including men and women, who will shame her for sexual expression. So she needs things:

  • She has to trust you
  • You have to lead her
  • She has to feel at the same time safe with you, and like she wants to take risks and be unsafe
  • Generally, if she’s doing it solely to please you (and this might change), it won’t last
  • You have to let her enter a different world, a way of looking at herself, and what type of person she identifies as.
  • You have to give her the opportunity to say “no.” The first time you’re in a group setting, the two of you might not even have sex with each other. Or you might have sex only with each other, and then discuss how she feels the next morning. Letting her back out will make her more comfortable going in.
  • There’s generally a recursive process with these types of things wherein women want to have group sex with men who already are comfortable with group sex. As such you’ll probably have to do a lot of experimenting and fucking up with a long term partner willing to follow you before you’ll be able to do it with new short term partners.

Once I’ve created this kind of relationship with a woman, bringing up the specific group sex situation is trivial.

It usually goes something like, “Do you want to go to X party with me,” or “Let’s fuck X person/couple” or “Let’s get on Feeld and go on some fun dates.”

In the next post, we’ll get into the specifics of threesomes and foursomes and how I see the role of the man/men in the situation and how to create a great experience for the woman/women. I’m far from an expert in group sex, certainly compared to RQ, but I’ve learned a lot from my experiences over the past few years and think it might be helpful to share.

Red Quest here. I’m less directly verbal most of the time, particularly on first dates. Often, it’s better to let the woman invest, and then guide her towards sex clubs.

The way I’ve evolved to both propose and do non-monogamy is not necessarily “the right way,” which is one reason I’m happy to host intelligent alternate perspectives and strategies. Many posts also have worthwhile comments that augment or question whatever is in the main post, or offer other ideas.

Author: The Red Quest

How can we live and be in society?

3 thoughts on “Setting the non-monogamous frame and intention with women: XBTUSD”

  1. Theres definitely some truth in this, but I would caveat it is somewhat contextual. RQ wants a roster of girls to non-mongamous casual sex with, and for that while I agree it works to say you’re just looking for fun (if you have the rule), if you want something else like a rotation of FWBs you see for as long as possible (rather than constantly gaming new girls), I dont think flatly ruling out emotional intimacy/consideration works, just bc of how women are programmed, ie. to try escalate the relationship over time to increasing levels of commitment.

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